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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2013,11:41) Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,18:41) Mikeb. God had already created evil/satan.
Wakeup,Did God create the angel known as “Satan” as an evil being right from the beginning? Did God actually create him evil?
Or did he used to be “perfection”?
Mike,I know you will understand with time. Right now, it only raises questions for you. But those questions have to be answered, so we can show all that our faith should not be blind, but backed with understanding and substance which only God can reveal to us.
I don't just mean “us” but all of “us”. The truth is a very powerful weapon indeed, and it comes from God, not us.
Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:22) Mike, when God originally created Satan, he was designed to become evil at a certain point. I can't express it enough. God is all knowing and he does everything according to a plan. His plan. Yes he created Satan good, but also created this good cherub to turn evil later.
I don't believe a word of that, journey. Nor can you show one shred of scriptural proof to support such a claim.I agree that God created the being we know as “Satan” good. And I believe that God created all intelligent beings with a free will to choose to obey Him, or rebel against Him.
ALL humans have that choice, and so do God's spirit sons.
So KNOWING that some of His creations would ultimately cease to obey Him is NOT the same thing as creating them with some kind of “computer virus” or something, that would take away their free will and FORCE them to start doing evil things at some point in the future.
And this is what you're claiming, journey. You are claiming that poor old Satan didn't even have a choice in the matter, because God originally programmed him to turn evil after a certain amount of time.
And it is truly sad for me to think that such a bright and intelligent person as yourself would believe our loving God created the ACT of being evil, thereby being the CAUSE of all the evil that has ever existed in the world.
In your understanding, our loving God has PURPOSELY caused all the starving children, all the rapes, theft, murders, and tortures that have EVER taken place in the history of the world. In your understanding, He CAUSED people to go against Him, and therefore lose out on eternal life.
And all of this because of a flawed KJV translation of the word “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.
journey, do you understand now that “evil” was merely the CHOICE made by the KJV scholars in Is 45:7, and that they could have just as easily CHOSEN “I send trouble”, or “I create adversity” instead?
I want to HEAR you and Wakeup both say that you UNDERSTAND this fact. So………… DO YOU?
Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:49) Mike, I know you will understand with time. Right now, it only raises questions for you. But those questions have to be answered, so we can show all that our faith should not be blind…………….
journey,The day I accept that the God of the Hebrews created evil is the day I stop worshipping that God.
I am seriously baffled how anyone ever converted someone to Christianity with that terribly flawed KJV translation of Isaiah 45:7. I mean, who in their right mind would want to worship, love, and serve the person responsible for all the evil things in the world?
We might as well just worship Satan, if that was the case. Because according to you, Satan didn't even have a choice in the matter. According to you, he was just a pawn in an evil game played by Jehovah.So right now, I want a DIRECT answer to the bolded question of my last post. I want to know that YOU know it was merely the KJV scholars' CHOICE to translate “ra” as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7.
Once I'm convinced that you KNOW this FACT, you can go on believing our Creator is the source of all the evil in the world, and I can go on believing that He isn't. And then we don't have to discuss this topic any further.
Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:36) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 10 2013,23:21) mikeboll,64 wrote:You say God created evil just so He could later separate the evil from the good, and destroy the evil ones? Why not just avoid creating evil in the first place, if His ultimate plan was to eliminate it anyway?
As I said before, we'd be like ROBOTS. Programmed to obey.
How do you come to that conclusion? Will we be “robots” who are “programmed to obey” after the resurrection – when evil is done away with?Do you agree that God created us with the free will to CHOOSE whether or not to obey His laws? YES or NO?
Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 13 2013,06:39) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2013,11:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,05:09) Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2013,20:59) BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,
Huh?Are you telling me that the spirit being who was given permission by God to mess up Job's life actually created himself?
I must be misunderstanding you.
Mikelet see what happen in the development story of Job ,first understand that Satan had himself already corrupt ,so Job as scriptures says he was a blessed man and a righteous one as well ,now on a day ;all the angels came in front of God and Satan came also ;God open the discussion with him ,where he came from ;he answer I went on the earth and all over ,but now God ask another question ;DID YOU SEE MY SERVANT JOB ,NO ONE LIKE HIM to that Satan quick answer is HE SERVERS YOU WELL IT IS IN HIS OWN INTEREST ;WHAT SATAN SAYS IS THAT ;JOB WAS WORKING FOR A PROFIT IN SERVING HIS GOD ,
AND THIS IS THE GREAT DILEMMA QUESTION OF ALL TIMES,
WOULD SOMEONE WORSHIP GOD IF THEIR IS NO MATERIAL BENEFIT IN IT
SO THIS WAS THE CHALLENGE THAT SATAN MADE TO HIS GOD
IN THIS WAY SATAN BECOMES THE ACCUSER FOR ALL WHO DO SERVE THEIR GOD OUT OF LOVE NOT FOR MATERIAL GAIN,
Pierre,Don't fall off your chair, but I agree with everything that you said here. Praise the Lord.
Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 13 2013,06:44) terraricca,Dec. wrote:[/quote]
Quote yes ,he was a created spirit being ,and he also was put in charge in the garden of Eden ,he was part of the cherub angels now when he became corrupt his name became Satan (the originator of rebellion towards God .)
Well done again Pierre!
But he was the “highest ranking cherub” No other cherub was created full of wisdom like Lucifer .. None, not one mentioned.
j42their is only one created being that has a more splendid glory and his name is “THE WORD” OF GOD =THE SON OF GOD,
BECAUSE HE IS CREATED FROM GOD HIMSELF ,BUT NO OTHER CREATION IS ,ALL CAME THROUGH “THE WORD” THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ,AND WAS SEND TO EARTH AND BECAME THE CHRIST JESUS
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 13 2013,11:57) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:22) Mike, when God originally created Satan, he was designed to become evil at a certain point. I can't express it enough. God is all knowing and he does everything according to a plan. His plan. Yes he created Satan good, but also created this good cherub to turn evil later.
I don't believe a word of that, journey. Nor can you show one shred of scriptural proof to support such a claim.I agree that God created the being we know as “Satan” good. And I believe that God created all intelligent beings with a free will to choose to obey Him, or rebel against Him.
ALL humans have that choice, and so do God's spirit sons.
So KNOWING that some of His creations would ultimately cease to obey Him is NOT the same thing as creating them with some kind of “computer virus” or something, that would take away their free will and FORCE them to start doing evil things at some point in the future.
And this is what you're claiming, journey. You are claiming that poor old Satan didn't even have a choice in the matter, because God originally programmed him to turn evil after a certain amount of time.
And it is truly sad for me to think that such a bright and intelligent person as yourself would believe our loving God created the ACT of being evil, thereby being the CAUSE of all the evil that has ever existed in the world.
In your understanding, our loving God has PURPOSELY caused all the starving children, all the rapes, theft, murders, and tortures that have EVER taken place in the history of the world. In your understanding, He CAUSED people to go against Him, and therefore lose out on eternal life.
And all of this because of a flawed KJV translation of the word “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.
journey, do you understand now that “evil” was merely the CHOICE made by the KJV scholars in Is 45:7, and that they could have just as easily CHOSEN “I send trouble”, or “I create adversity” instead?
I want to HEAR you and Wakeup both say that you UNDERSTAND this fact. So………… DO YOU?
Mikeb.You have failed to answer these questions before,
so please answer this time.Dont let my time be wasted.Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
1 Samuel 2:6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,21:09) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:49) Mike, I know you will understand with time. Right now, it only raises questions for you. But those questions have to be answered, so we can show all that our faith should not be blind…………….
journey,The day I accept that the God of the Hebrews created evil is the day I stop worshipping that God.
I am seriously baffled how anyone ever converted someone to Christianity with that terribly flawed KJV translation of Isaiah 45:7. I mean, who in their right mind would want to worship, love, and serve the person responsible for all the evil things in the world?
We might as well just worship Satan, if that was the case. Because according to you, Satan didn't even have a choice in the matter. According to you, he was just a pawn in an evil game played by Jehovah.So right now, I want a DIRECT answer to the bolded question of my last post. I want to know that YOU know it was merely the KJV scholars' CHOICE to translate “ra” as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7.
Once I'm convinced that you KNOW this FACT, you can go on believing our Creator is the source of all the evil in the world, and I can go on believing that He isn't. And then we don't have to discuss this topic any further.
Mike,
I quite agree with you on God having no part with evil.I don't believe there is a Bible version without fault, but mistranslations are identified through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and an understanding from the whole of scriptures.
Romans 7:12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good. 13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure.
Wm
Mike
Quote The day I accept that the God of the Hebrews created evil is the day I stop worshipping that God. this is good ,son
Quote (seekingtruth @ Dec. 14 2013,07:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,21:09) Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:49) Mike, I know you will understand with time. Right now, it only raises questions for you. But those questions have to be answered, so we can show all that our faith should not be blind…………….
journey,The day I accept that the God of the Hebrews created evil is the day I stop worshipping that God.
I am seriously baffled how anyone ever converted someone to Christianity with that terribly flawed KJV translation of Isaiah 45:7. I mean, who in their right mind would want to worship, love, and serve the person responsible for all the evil things in the world?
We might as well just worship Satan, if that was the case. Because according to you, Satan didn't even have a choice in the matter. According to you, he was just a pawn in an evil game played by Jehovah.So right now, I want a DIRECT answer to the bolded question of my last post. I want to know that YOU know it was merely the KJV scholars' CHOICE to translate “ra” as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7.
Once I'm convinced that you KNOW this FACT, you can go on believing our Creator is the source of all the evil in the world, and I can go on believing that He isn't. And then we don't have to discuss this topic any further.
Mike,
I quite agree with you on God having no part with evil.I don't believe there is a Bible version without fault, but mistranslations are identified through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and an understanding from the whole of scriptures.
Romans 7:12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good. 13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure.
Wm
sktQuote I don't believe there is a Bible version without fault, but mistranslations are identified through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and an understanding from the whole of scriptures. yes this is a fundamental truth
Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 12 2013,18:22)
Mike, when God originally created Satan, he was designed to become evil at a certain point. I can't express it enough. God is all knowing and he does everything according to a plan. His plan. Yes he created Satan good, but also created this good cherub to turn evil later.mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:Quote I don't believe a word of that, journey. Nor can you show one shred of scriptural proof to support such a claim. Mike,
Do I really need to prove to you that God is all knowing? He knew what he was doing when he created Lucifer. There is nothing that God does not know. He is not hit with surprises. Everything is created for his purpose.
I can show you not only one verse, but many. Concentrate first carefully on these verses Mike, then you can comment.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Ecclesiastes 7:8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit.
Isaiah 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
Isaiah 48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
Isaiah 48:7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:Quote 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Exactly. If there were not LIES, then how can you know the truth? How does the TRUTH stand out then?
How do you know what DARKNESS is if you have never seen the LIGHT?
How do you know what HOT is if you have never felt the COLD?mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:Quote I agree that God created the being we know as “Satan” good. And I believe that God created all intelligent beings with a free will to choose to obey Him, or rebel against Him.
Hopefully, when you read the scriptures in my last post, you will see that God knew what he was doing the whole time, with every creation, and especially with Lucifer?Quote ALL humans have that choice, and so do God's spirit sons.
Yes, we all have a choice. That is why the devil is put there in the first place, so we can CHOOSE GOD. CHOOSE RIGHTEOUSNESS, CHOOSE TRUTH. Our Choice.Quote So KNOWING that some of His creations would ultimately cease to obey Him is NOT the same thing as creating them with some kind of “computer virus” or something, that would take away their free will and FORCE them to start doing evil things at some point in the future.
That is a good analysis. Yes you could liken it to a computer virus that was PUT THERE on PURPOSE. PROGRAMMED.
I disagree however how you imply it, that it was an “accident” and God did not know what he was doing.
Mike if God creates something perfect, it's perfect. It stays that way. God is the programmer and nothing can change it. He's the potter remember, and we are the clay. All creation he has shaped to perform his will and his PURPOSE.Quote And this is what you're claiming, journey. You are claiming that poor old Satan didn't even have a choice in the matter, because God originally programmed him to turn evil after a certain amount of time.
Not poor old Satan. Satan is the TOOL used. He is wicked without a doubt and will be punished, just like all those who follow him. Satan has enjoyed all this, and not only that, he is very angry with God for kicking him out of heaven. Nevertheless, God created him, and he can destroy him. God can do what he likes.Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Quote And it is truly sad for me to think that such a bright and intelligent person as yourself would believe our loving God created the ACT of being evil, thereby being the CAUSE of all the evil that has ever existed in the world.
Mike, Because God created all this evil, it's obviously his fault, right?
Maybe God should be the one to pay for our sins because we didn't know any better?
Didn't God send someone to “pay” for those Mike?Quote In your understanding, our loving God has PURPOSELY caused all the starving children, all the rapes, theft, murders, and tortures that have EVER taken place in the history of the world. In your understanding, He CAUSED people to go against Him, and therefore lose out on eternal life.
No he has chosen to “offer” eternal life. Quite the contrary to what you say. Resist evil, hate it, be no part of it. This is how he separates the good from the wicked.Quote And all of this because of a flawed KJV translation of the word “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.
Let's pick on the KJV again shall we, and not take into consideration any other verses.
Let's make MAN OUR FINAL AUTHORITY on the WORD?Quote journey, do you understand now that “evil” was merely the CHOICE made by the KJV scholars in Is 45:7, and that they could have just as easily CHOSEN “I send trouble”, or “I create adversity” instead? I want to HEAR you and Wakeup both say that you UNDERSTAND this fact. So………… DO YOU?
No you have agreed with them that have corrupted the Word of God. He said he preserved HIS WORDS for us, and you guys (scribes) have partaken in this sin, and promoted it.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:[/b]
j42
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
the beginning is from Adam and Eve creation and on,
j42
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:[/b]
this is pure justice for the righteous man
j42
Quote No he has chosen to “offer” eternal life. Quite the contrary to what you say. Resist evil, hate it, be no part of it. This is how he separates the good from the wicked. so God did not created evil ,right
Ps 62:11 One thing God has spoken,
two things have I heard:
that you, O God, are strong,
Ps 62:12 and that you, O Lord, are loving.
Surely you will reward each person
according to what he has doneall what God does his good and truth,righteousness
is there good and truth ,righteousness ,in EVIL J42
J42
Quote No you have agreed with them that have corrupted the Word of God. He said he preserved HIS WORDS for us, and you guys (scribes) have partaken in this sin, and promoted it. THIS DOES NOT ANSWER THE PROVE THAT MIKE AS GIVEN ,YOU ONLY SUPPLIED YOUR OPINION
j42
Quote Mike, Because God created all this evil, it's obviously his fault, right?
Maybe God should be the one to pay for our sins because we didn't know any better?
Didn't God send someone to “pay” for those Mike?Ps 25:4 Show me your ways, O LORD,
teach me your paths;
Ps 25:5 guide me in your truth and teach me,
for you are God my Savior,
and my hope is in you all day long.
Ps 25:6 Remember, O LORD, your great mercy and love,
for they are from of old.
Ps 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth
and my rebellious ways;
according to your love remember me,
for you are good, O LORD.Ps 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD?
therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.PS 31:5 Into Your hand I commit my spirit;
You have ransomed me, O LORD, God of truth.
ISA 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD will return
And come with joyful shouting to Zion,
With everlasting joy upon their heads.
They will find gladness and joy,
And sorrow and sighing will flee away.ISA 51:11 So the ransomed of the LORD will return
And come with joyful shouting to Zion,
And everlasting joy will be on their heads.
They will obtain gladness and joy,
And sorrow and sighing will flee away.
JER 31:11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob
And redeemed him from the hand of him who was stronger than he.God does not ransom the evil doers but the righteous to them he forgive their sins because they stopped sinning and do his will because they love him in return for what he had done of good not evil at the end the evil ones will be destroyed because he hate them,
this thinking of yours is not find in scriptures ,
j42
Quote if God creates something perfect, it's perfect. It stays that way. what you think perfection means
the way you explain it it would mean single direction from day one
but God placed double direction open for a choice ,this is the way with love agape,
serving God for the hope he as provided to the righteous ,
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