Which Bible should I believe?

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2013,01:26)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,11:39)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2013,13:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,07:13)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 09 2013,17:58)

MIKE

SO I WAS WRONG ,to me God did not created SATAN ,Satan created himself like everyone that reject righteousness and so sin

I would like to know how you came to that conclusion

God created a beautiful spirit being. That spirit being later rebelled against the God who created him, and started doing evil things. That spirit being is now called by the name “Satan”, which means “accuser” or “adversary”.

God did not create this beautiful spirit being AS an evil being. But He did create him.

Like journey has acknowledged, going AGAINST God's laws and rules is what constitutes “evil”. And surely God didn't create the ACT of going against His own laws and rules.

God has, however, created MANY beings who later became “evil” because they chose, of their own free will, to go against God's laws and rules.

But I can't stress enough that evil is simply the ACT of going against God and His rules. And God did NOT create the ACT of going against His own rules.

Mike

this is true that God did not created them evil /wicked/rebel/

so they did have a good start ,and sins God did not created them as rebels and etc it is on them that falls the guilt of becoming what they have chosen ,and only them that will be responsible for their own actions and not blame God for having created good beings that end up in sour pots ,God is love ,and so extend a hand to those that want to seek reconciliation with him and offers them everlasting live,

BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,

You love contradicting the Word Of God.
Do you know better Than God?
Were you there when God created Lucifer?
Were you there when Lucifer chose to oppose God?
Can you read the mind of God?
Did you know that the serpent had permission to
roam the garden?

Do you know that all heavenly creatures have laws to follow?
God knew before hand; that Lucifer will be the serpent in the garden. **He knew it; and He let it be**.

wakeup.

IT SEEMS YOUR VERSION OF SCRIPTURES SAYS THAT GOD CREATED “EVIL” NOT MINE ,SO ALL YOUR FOUNDATION ARE LAYING ON YOUR TRANSLATION ,MINE LAYS ON THE CONTENT OF THE SCRIPTURES ,

AND IT SEEMS YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT GOD MIND THAN YOU KNOW ABOUT YOUR OWN MIND ,

NO, MY GOD DID NOT CREATED “EVIL” WHY WOULD HE DO SUCH A THING ,HE CREATED ALL HIS BEINGS THE HEAVENLY AND EARTHLY ONES WITH FREE OF CHOICE ,

OR DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT “LOVE” HIS A ACQUIRED TASTE

We have explained it enough.
It is up to you to take it or leave it.
You dont seem to believe that God knows
things in advance.

wakeup.

December 11, 2013 at 11:14 pm#363665

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2013,01:30)

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 11 2013,11:29)

No other angel possesses these skills,
that's why Lucifer was designed that way.
The perfect adversary with inside information.

J42

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT NO OTHER ANGEL HAD RECEIVED A BETTER LIVE /SKILLS THAN THE CORRUPTED ANGEL

I DO DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ,FOR GOOD REASONS

Lucifer was not just an angel,but the anointed *CHERUB*.
1.Anointed cherub.
2.Full of wisdom.
3.Perfect in beauty.
4.Thou sealest up the sum.
5.Perfect in his ways.

God knew that all those will corrupt his mind.
God knew that evil will be born soon enough.
Evil must be: for us to make a choice.

wakeup.

December 12, 2013 at 12:09 am#363676

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2013,20:59)

BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,

Huh?

Are you telling me that the spirit being who was given permission by God to mess up Job's life actually created himself?

I must be misunderstanding you.

December 12, 2013 at 12:38 am#363684

Blocked

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 10 2013,23:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 11 2013,12:13)

Like journey has acknowledged, going AGAINST God's laws and rules is what constitutes “evil”. And surely God didn't create the ACT of going against His own laws and rules.

Hi Mike,

Explained nicely, but my point was that God DID create an adversary to go against his laws.

God created a beautiful spirit being. Some people think that being was named “Lucifer”. And some people believe that being is the cherub mentioned in Ezekiel 28:14.

But despite what you believe about those two things, it seems we agree that God didn't originally create Satan AS an adversary, or AS an evil being.

If you are one of those who believe Ezekiel 28 refers to “Lucifer”, then what does verse 15 mean?

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

If he was originally created AS an evil adversary, then iniquity would have already been in him from the start. Yet the statement above, if it is indeed about Satan, seems to prove otherwise, right?

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 10 2013,23:21)

He did my friend, he knows what he's doing. It's all for a purpose. All part of the Grand Plan.

Create an angel
fill him with beauty, and wisdom,
then give him a high position and call him a cherub,
so he has the respect of all the angels in heaven,
and charge over them,
Let him be so close to God, so he knows what is righteous and holy, at the highest level of understanding,
then let him turn evil at a certain point of time,
to show his idea's with all the wisdom he has,
with the other angels,
now let him take his course,
and let a third of the angels believe in his new idea's,
with all the wisdom he possesses
and behold, we have an enemy, highly trained, powerful, full of wisdom and intelligence,
that can use this high power and his gifts to manipulate not only innocent mankind, but angels also who dwell with God,
and let him use what he knows to create new inventions (not new really)
and let him manipulate and be contrary to every single commandment of God,
and let him lead others to do the same,
to draw the wicked to himself,
and separate the good.

Now God knew exactly what he was doing when he created beautiful, intelligent, powerful Lucifer.

Hmmmm………… You say God created evil just so He could later separate the evil from the good, and destroy the evil ones? Why not just avoid creating evil in the first place, if His ultimate plan was to eliminate it anyway?

It makes much more sense to me that God created all good things, but He created the intelligent beings with the free will to either follow His laws (righteousness), or go against them (evil).

Once again, I see an elaborate “justification” from you, but I'm still not seeing a direct answer to the question I've been asking over and over.

journey, do you understand that the KJV scholars translated the Hebrew word “ra” as “adversity”, “affliction”, and “trouble” in other verses? YES or NO?

Are you therefore aware that it was simply their CHOICE to translate that word as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7? YES or NO?

December 12, 2013 at 12:40 am#363686

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 10 2013,23:39)

Were you there when Lucifer chose to oppose God?

CHOSE to oppose God? Hmmmm………..

So then God DIDN'T originally create him as an evil being?

December 12, 2013 at 12:43 am#363687

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,16:14)

God knew that evil will be born soon enough.

So evil “was born”, huh? So God DIDN'T actually create it Himself? It “was born” later on?

Even your own words disagree with the “evil” translation of Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV, Wakeup.

December 12, 2013 at 1:00 am#363690

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,10:40)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 10 2013,23:39)

Were you there when Lucifer chose to oppose God?

CHOSE to oppose God? Hmmmm………..

So then God DIDN'T originally create him as an evil being?

Mikeb.

God created Lucifer; his anointed Cherub.
But God also knew what would become of him.
He knew it all from the beginning.

How can God's children know about evil if there was no evil?
How can we make a choice,if there was no choice to make?
God created good and evil/bad for us to choose from.
The tree of life was not to be touched untill the right
choice was made.
They made the wrong choice,by ignoring God's advice.
The tree of life was taken away from them.

Satan,also called the axe,has some chopping to do.
When God is finished with him;he will be destroyed.
Same with Judas iscariot.
God chose him at first,*knowing* that he will betray Jesus.
But that was his plan from the beginning.
There must be one evil at heart to betray Jesus,so he will be sacrificed. And therefore conquered death.

wakeup.

December 12, 2013 at 1:07 am#363693

terraricca

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,05:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2013,20:59)

BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,

Huh?

Are you telling me that the spirit being who was given permission by God to mess up Job's life actually created himself?

I must be misunderstanding you.

Mike

let see what happen in the development story of Job ,first understand that Satan had himself already corrupt ,so Job as scriptures says he was a blessed man and a righteous one as well ,now on a day ;all the angels came in front of God and Satan came also ;God open the discussion with him ,where he came from ;he answer I went on the earth and all over ,but now God ask another question ;DID YOU SEE MY SERVANT JOB ,NO ONE LIKE HIM to that Satan quick answer is HE SERVERS YOU WELL IT IS IN HIS OWN INTEREST ;WHAT SATAN SAYS IS THAT ;JOB WAS WORKING FOR A PROFIT IN SERVING HIS GOD ,

AND THIS IS THE GREAT DILEMMA QUESTION OF ALL TIMES,

WOULD SOMEONE WORSHIP GOD IF THEIR IS NO MATERIAL BENEFIT IN IT

SO THIS WAS THE CHALLENGE THAT SATAN MADE TO HIS GOD

IN THIS WAY SATAN BECOMES THE ACCUSER FOR ALL WHO DO SERVE THEIR GOD OUT OF LOVE NOT FOR MATERIAL GAIN,

December 12, 2013 at 1:08 am#363694

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,18:00)

Mikeb.

God created Lucifer; his anointed Cherub.
But God also knew what would become of him.
He knew it all from the beginning.

Knowing ahead of time that certain persons would choose of their own free wills to BECOME evil is not the same as “creating evil”, Wakeup.

Evil is the ACT of disobeying God. How can God create an ACT?

If a man rapes a child, did God create the evil ACT that man performed? YES or NO?

December 12, 2013 at 1:10 am#363696

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2013,18:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,05:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2013,20:59)

BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,

Huh?

Are you telling me that the spirit being who was given permission by God to mess up Job's life actually created himself?

I must be misunderstanding you.

Mike

AND THIS IS THE GREAT DILEMMA QUESTION OF ALL TIMES,

WOULD SOMEONE WORSHIP GOD IF THEIR IS NO MATERIAL BENEFIT IN IT

SO THIS WAS THE CHALLENGE THAT SATAN MADE TO HIS GOD

IN THIS WAY SATAN BECOMES THE ACCUSER FOR ALL WHO DO SERVE THEIR GOD OUT OF LOVE NOT FOR MATERIAL GAIN,

Pierre,

I think we're understanding the word “Satan” differently or something.

Tell me this: BEFORE Satan did one single evil act, what was he? Was he a spirit being?

December 12, 2013 at 1:41 am#363699

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,11:08)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,18:00)

Mikeb.

God created Lucifer; his anointed Cherub.
But God also knew what would become of him.
He knew it all from the beginning.

Knowing ahead of time that certain persons would choose of their own free wills to BECOME evil is not the same as “creating evil”, Wakeup.

Evil is the ACT of disobeying God. How can God create an ACT?

If a man rapes a child, did God create the evil ACT that man performed? YES or NO?

Mikeb.

God had already created evil/satan.
But God also created good,and his Word is good.
Now each person have a choice to make.
God also knows who is going to choose good or bad.
Before the whole process is finished.

Men that have never known God will be judged by their works in their life time. There are non Christians that are more good than Christians.
God sees the heart.

wakeup.

December 12, 2013 at 2:59 am#363708

terraricca

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,06:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2013,18:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,05:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2013,20:59)

BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,

Huh?

Are you telling me that the spirit being who was given permission by God to mess up Job's life actually created himself?

I must be misunderstanding you.

Mike

AND THIS IS THE GREAT DILEMMA QUESTION OF ALL TIMES,

WOULD SOMEONE WORSHIP GOD IF THEIR IS NO MATERIAL BENEFIT IN IT

SO THIS WAS THE CHALLENGE THAT SATAN MADE TO HIS GOD

IN THIS WAY SATAN BECOMES THE ACCUSER FOR ALL WHO DO SERVE THEIR GOD OUT OF LOVE NOT FOR MATERIAL GAIN,

Pierre,

I think we're understanding the word “Satan” differently or something.

Tell me this: BEFORE Satan did one single evil act, what was he? Was he a spirit being?

yes ,he was a created spirit being ,and he also was put in charge in the garden of Eden ,he was part of the cherub angels

now when he became corrupt his name became Satan (the originator of rebellion towards God .)

December 13, 2013 at 1:22 am#363744

Participant

mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

God created a beautiful spirit being. Some people think that being was named “Lucifer”. And some people believe that being is the cherub mentioned in Ezekiel 28:14.

Hi Mike

Yes, they are the same. In Ezekiel 28:14, Satan was there with THE KING OF TYRE. Satan, the power behind the King. God is speaking directly to Satan who we know was also in the Garden of Eden when he tempted Eve.
…..”Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God.” (The King of Tyre was never in the garden of Eden). This is the first dead give away who God is speaking to.

…every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:…..

This shows us that Lucifer was “bright”, full of wisdom.

Quote

But despite what you believe about those two things, it seems we agree that God didn't originally create Satan AS an adversary, or AS an evil being.

Mike, when God originally created Satan, he was designed to become evil at a certain point. I can't express it enough. God is all knowing and he does everything according to a plan. His plan. Yes he created Satan good, but also created this good cherub to turn evil later. Satan did not turn evil because of chance, ….but because God designed him that way, so the world can see at the end what happens when we do not depend on God to rule us. The outcome is oppression, death and destruction, darkness…. A world without God is total chaos. How else are we to learn, if not by experience? We would be like robots then not appreciating righteousness, and taking it for granted.

December 13, 2013 at 1:32 am#363746

Participant

mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:

Quote

If you are one of those who believe Ezekiel 28 refers to “Lucifer”, then what does verse 15 mean?

Yes I am “one of those”

Quote

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

If he was originally created AS an evil adversary, then iniquity would have already been in him from the start. Yet the statement above, if it is indeed about Satan, seems to prove otherwise, right?

We can't deny this passage is speaking of Lucifer. Lucifer, Satan, the Devil, the Serpent, the Dragon, the Father of Lies, it's all the same angel. The chief.. highest ranked opposer of God, created to spread evil like a cancer, so God can shine through that darkness and show his power.

December 13, 2013 at 1:36 am#363747

Participant

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 10 2013,23:21)

He did my friend, he knows what he's doing. It's all for a purpose. All part of the Grand Plan.
Create an angel
fill him with beauty, and wisdom,
then give him a high position and call him a cherub,
so he has the respect of all the angels in heaven,
and charge over them,
Let him be so close to God, so he knows what is righteous and holy, at the highest level of understanding,
then let him turn evil at a certain point of time,
to show his idea's with all the wisdom he has,
with the other angels,
now let him take his course,
and let a third of the angels believe in his new idea's,
with all the wisdom he possesses
and behold, we have an enemy, highly trained, powerful, full of wisdom and intelligence,
that can use this high power and his gifts to manipulate not only innocent mankind, but angels also who dwell with God,
and let him use what he knows to create new inventions (not new really)
and let him manipulate and be contrary to every single commandment of God,
and let him lead others to do the same,
to draw the wicked to himself,
and separate the good.

Now God knew exactly what he was doing when he created beautiful, intelligent, powerful Lucifer.

Quote

As I said before, we'd be like ROBOTS. Programmed to obey. We would have “blind faith” and no wisdom in knowing “why” God commands the things he does. We have faith with knowledge now.

December 13, 2013 at 1:38 am#363748

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 11 2013,19:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,06:10)

BEFORE Satan did one single evil act, what was he? Was he a spirit being?

yes ,he was a created spirit being………..

now when he became corrupt his name became Satan………..

And who created that spirit being who later became known as “Satan”?

What you seem to be saying is akin to, “God didn't create Abraham, because he was called Abram, not Abraham, when God created him.”

Is that what you're doing? Are you saying that since this spirit being MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN know as “Satan” at the time of his creation, God didn't “technically” create “Satan”?

If that IS what you're saying, then you are getting way too technical for my taste. You wouldn't claim that God didn't create Judas the Betrayer, just because he wasn't a betrayer at first……… would you?

December 13, 2013 at 1:39 am#363749

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 12 2013,11:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 12 2013,05:09)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 10 2013,20:59)

BUT NO GOD DID NOT CREATED SATAN , SATAN CREATED HIMSELF AGAINST GOD WILL ,

Huh?

Are you telling me that the spirit being who was given permission by God to mess up Job's life actually created himself?

I must be misunderstanding you.

Mike

AND THIS IS THE GREAT DILEMMA QUESTION OF ALL TIMES,

WOULD SOMEONE WORSHIP GOD IF THEIR IS NO MATERIAL BENEFIT IN IT

SO THIS WAS THE CHALLENGE THAT SATAN MADE TO HIS GOD

IN THIS WAY SATAN BECOMES THE ACCUSER FOR ALL WHO DO SERVE THEIR GOD OUT OF LOVE NOT FOR MATERIAL GAIN,

Pierre,

Don't fall off your chair, but I agree with everything that you said here. Praise the Lord.

December 13, 2013 at 1:41 am#363750

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 11 2013,18:41)

Mikeb.

God had already created evil/satan.

Wakeup,

Did God create the angel known as “Satan” as an evil being right from the beginning? Did God actually create him evil?

Or did he used to be “perfection”?

December 13, 2013 at 1:44 am#363751