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Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 15 2013,01:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Kj.God is not a creature,IS HE?
The Word of God is not a creature,IS HE?They both are from everlasting.
God created everything by his own Word.
Gods Word is a living entity.(being).wakeup.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2013,08:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.Hmmmm……….. Isn't Jehovah one of the “everything in heaven”? Did He make Himself then?
Or does Logic 101 dictate that Jehovah Himself is EXCLUDED from the “everything in heaven” that Jehovah MADE?
Now, go and practice that logic on John 1:3.
Just like we can all agree on Acts 4 that it means everything that came AFTER Jehovah was created by Jehovah… we should also be able to agree that all things that came AFTER the Word were created through the Word.
Btw Jack, notice that the prayer in Acts 4 wasn't directed to Jesus – because Jesus is later listed as the “holy servant” of the one to whom they prayed. And since Jesus is not the one to whom they prayed, there is no reason to exclude him from the “everything in heaven” that was made BY the one to whom they prayed.
In other words, if GOD made all things in heaven, and Jesus is one of the things in heaven, then Jesus was made BY God.
The prayer in Acts 4 (among many other passages) lays this out quite simply – for anyone who has ears to hear.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2013,09:37) There you go, David. Now it's a Trinity thread.
Every thread by default is a trinity thread.It is the default setting on every thread.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 13 2013,22:08) Mike B. Ra' is an egyptian word for the SUN.
Wakeup,“Ra” is also a HEBREW word that means, according to James Strong:
from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-
adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure),
distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X
great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured),
+ mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not
please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex,
wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong.And that HEBREW word is translated in the KJV as:
evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34
So my point to journey is that the KJV translators had a CHOICE to translate the word as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7…….. or as “adversity”, or “affliction”, or “harm”, or “trouble”, etc.
But these regular old men CHOSE to translate it as “evil” in that verse, even though you can see above the many different ways they translated the same word in other verses.
I say “evil” was a bad CHOICE in Isaiah 45:7. Most scholars agree with me – judging by the way that verse is translated in newer Bibles.
Even the KJV 2000 renders the word as “calamity” in Isaiah 45:7 – instead of “evil”.
So the only question I ask of you two is if YOU GUYS believe it was a good CHOICE by the regular old men who translated the KJV to render it as “evil” – thereby making the scripture say that God Almighty actually caused evil to exist.
If you guys CHOOSE the “evil” translation as well, then that's your CHOICE. But don't ever try to use that verse as any kind of “proof” that the KJV is “inspired”, or “flawless” or anything like that……….. because “evil” is just one of the many ways those regular old men like us could have translated the HEBREW word “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.
Are you finally beginning to get the picture, Wakeup? Are you finally understanding what it is I'm even saying?
This is it right here: The word “evil” isn't NECESSARY in Isaiah 45:7. But it is ONE of the many POSSIBILITIES that the regular old MEN who translated the KJV could have CHOSEN. I believe they CHOSE wrong. And you apparently believe they CHOSE right.
Do you understand those bold words above? YES or NO?
Quote (david @ Nov. 14 2013,16:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2013,09:37) There you go, David. Now it's a Trinity thread.
Every thread by default is a trinity thread.It is the default setting on every thread.
Not so much anymore. Posts from Keith, Kathi, and Jack are almost non-existent these days.It seems we mostly discuss the pre-existence of Jesus, whether or not angels have “spirit bodies”, and whether or not the KJV is some magically inspired version of scripture that has no faults, and cannot be wrong ever.
Oh, and the proper way to translate John 1:1c and whether or not there exist other gods besides Jehovah.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2013,09:58) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 13 2013,22:08) Mike B. Ra' is an egyptian word for the SUN.
Wakeup,“Ra” is also a HEBREW word that means, according to James Strong:
from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-
adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure),
distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X
great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured),
+ mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not
please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex,
wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong.And that HEBREW word is translated in the KJV as:
evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34
So my point to journey is that the KJV translators had a CHOICE to translate the word as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7…….. or as “adversity”, or “affliction”, or “harm”, or “trouble”, etc.
But these regular old men CHOSE to translate it as “evil” in that verse, even though you can see above the many different ways they translated the same word in other verses.
I say “evil” was a bad CHOICE in Isaiah 45:7. Most scholars agree with me – judging by the way that verse is translated in newer Bibles.
Even the KJV 2000 renders the word as “calamity” in Isaiah 45:7 – instead of “evil”.
So the only question I ask of you two is if YOU GUYS believe it was a good CHOICE by the regular old men who translated the KJV to render it as “evil” – thereby making the scripture say that God Almighty actually caused evil to exist.
If you guys CHOOSE the “evil” translation as well, then that's your CHOICE. But don't ever try to use that verse as any kind of “proof” that the KJV is “inspired”, or “flawless” or anything like that……….. because “evil” is just one of the many ways those regular old men like us could have translated the HEBREW word “ra” in Isaiah 45:7.
Are you finally beginning to get the picture, Wakeup? Are you finally understanding what it is I'm even saying?
This is it right here: The word “evil” isn't NECESSARY in Isaiah 45:7. But it is ONE of the many POSSIBILITIES that the regular old MEN who translated the KJV could have CHOSEN. I believe they CHOSE wrong. And you apparently believe they CHOSE right.
Do you understand those bold words above? YES or NO?
Mike b.How is the new interpretation to this one?
**I created the waister do destroy**.
wakeup.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 13 2013,19:02) The nerve of you to find fault with Trinitarians when you say that the Hebrews called messengers by YHWH's name. For the Hebrews to call messengers by YHWH's name would be to profane YHWH's name (Leviticus 24:16).
Yet you say Jehovah's messenger Jesus Christ is “Jehovah the Son”, right? Hmmm………..Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 13 2013,19:02) If many share the name of YHWH as you suggest, then there is more than one YHWH. Duh! I won't continue to enable one who can't see his own blatant contradictions.
Yet you say there exists a “Jehovah the Father” and a “Jehovah the Son”, right? Isn't that “more than one Jehovah”? Hmmmmm………….Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2013,20:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Jack,Somethings have a being that were not created.
Did God create love which is an aspect of him?
Like God it has being but was not created.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,17:24) Mike b. How is the new interpretation to this one?
**I created the waster do destroy**.
There are various ways that verse is translated – both in the old English versions and in the new.I have no problem with the KJV translation of that verse. I suppose the angel God sent to wipe out 185,000 Assyrians in one night could be considered one of the “wasters” God created, right?
But was that angel “evil” for doing what God commanded and sent him to do?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2013,10:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,17:24) Mike b. How is the new interpretation to this one?
**I created the waster do destroy**.
There are various ways that verse is translated – both in the old English versions and in the new.I have no problem with the KJV translation of that verse. I suppose the angel God sent to wipe out 185,000 Assyrians in one night could be considered one of the “wasters” God created, right?
But was that angel “evil” for doing what God commanded and sent him to do?
Mike b.God was not speaking of Micha'el the prince of israel.
The angel with the sword.
God was speaking of satan the destroyer.And how did they translate this one:
Out of the mouth of GOD proceeded not EVIL and GOOD?
wakeup.
Slow down, Wakeup.
First, tell me whether or not you now understand the “ra” thing, and that the KJV translators had the CHOICE of translating that word as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7, or translating it as “affliction”, “adversity”, “trouble”, “harm”, etc.
Do you understand this FACT? YES or NO?
Secondly, it's not told to us who the angel of Jehovah was that destroyed the 185,000 Assyrians. But I asked you if that angel was “evil”. YES or NO?
Answer those two DIRECTLY, and then we'll address your next verse.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 15 2013,12:00) Slow down, Wakeup. First, tell me whether or not you now understand the “ra” thing, and that the KJV translators had the CHOICE of translating that word as “evil” in Isaiah 45:7, or translating it as “affliction”, “adversity”, “trouble”, “harm”, etc.
Do you understand this FACT? YES or NO?
Secondly, it's not told to us who the angel of Jehovah was that destroyed the 185,000 Assyrians. But I asked you if that angel was “evil”. YES or NO?
Answer those two DIRECTLY, and then we'll address your next verse.
Mike B.As far as I know the word RA' IS EGYPTIAN.
THEIR GOD IS NAMED RA';THE SON GOD.
I dont know any hebrew word as RA'.
They could have adopted that egyptian word.Need to do some research on that.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
The word is Ra` and like many words it has many meanings. I can certainly see the Hebrews taking the name of a foreign god and using it to have a number of negative meanings. Ra comes from Ra`a`which has similar meanings.
Note: .biblestudytools.com is my source.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2013,17:29) Wakeup, The word is Ra` and like many words it has many meanings. I can certainly see the Hebrews taking the name of a foreign god and using it to have a number of negative meanings. Ra comes from Ra`a`which has similar meanings.
Note: .biblestudytools.com is my source.
Thank you Kerwin.
Not too important to me.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 15 2013,08:34) Kj. God is not a creature,IS HE?
The Word of God is not a creature,IS HE?They both are from everlasting.
wakeup.
Amen and amen! Is Tigger going to explain his reasons for saying that 1:1c should be translated 'a god'? Or did he and I missed it?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2013,09:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Amen Jack!WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 14 2013,17:37) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2013,08:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.Hmmmm……….. Isn't Jehovah one of the “everything in heaven”? Did He make Himself then?
Or does Logic 101 dictate that Jehovah Himself is EXCLUDED from the “everything in heaven” that Jehovah MADE?
Mike
Exactly the point. Just as Jehovah is excluded from the everything, so was Jesus!
The proof of it is the statement “without him (Jesus) was not anything made that was made!”
Which is a more clarifying statement than your verse for it doesn't say…
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them (and without him was not anything made that was made).Does it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 16 2013,02:59) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Nov. 14 2013,09:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 14 2013,20:17) My question will they not answer:
And that was:Who created the A GOD?
Who is supposedly to be the Word?
Without the Word was not *ANYTHING MADE* that was made.wakeup.
It literally says “Without Him (the Word) not one thing came into being that has come into being.”If the Word came into being from non-being, then it cannot be true that “not one thing” came into being without Him.
Logic 101
Amen Jack!WJ
Hi Keith,Mike continues with his nonsense about the Hebrews calling angels by the name YHWH. But there is only ONE angel that was called YHWH in scripture and it was not the Hebrews that called Him that. It was Moses who called Him by YHWH's name. That was the Angel that appeared to Moses in the burning bush who is explicitly identified by Moses as YHWH; and who said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers….”
So using Mike's logic we should also say that angels (plural) were also called “The God of your fathers.”
Mike cannot see that if the Hebrews called angels by YHWH'S name, then they were in fact profaning YHWH's name. And Mike cannot explain why Trinitarianism would be worse than his profaning of YHWH'S name by assigning it to creatures.
Mike is so inconsistent it is sickening.
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