When does the bio. father become the bio. father?

Blocked

Hey Kathi,

When you actually address my points, I'll continue. You are side-stepping the issues, and I don't care for it. Please post the quote of what I said, and your direct answer that either refutes or acknowledges that point.

Until then, know that if you cannot produce a single scripture that says Jesus is from eternity, the rest of us will be forced to recognize that you and Keith are basing this claim of yours on merely your “imaginations” and your “emotions”.

peace,
mike

May 2, 2011 at 12:23 am#245023

Participant

Istari,

Quote

By your logic, every MAN is a Father, and every Woman is a mother.

Only if they have conceived an offspring, Istari. Many men and women have never conceived an offspring but once they have, they are a biological father and mother of an offspring whether or not the baby was miscarried or not. I don't know why you aren't getting this? You weren't a father before you conceived your son. The moment after you conceived your son, you were a biological father. See? I started this thread so that you could get that and now we are on pg. 22 and you still don't get that.

Quote

And also, The Son is only 'his own Radiance' BECAUSE you believe that he is God!

The Son is not His (the Son's) own radiance. He is the radiance of His Father.

Heb 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Quote

You cannot use your own false logic to stake a claim that others are wrong – that is typical of a certain other Persons' logic.

It is obvious that you have no idea of what my logic is by your last post and therefore can not speak about my logic being one way or another.

Kathi

May 2, 2011 at 12:27 am#245024

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,18:23)

You weren't a father before you conceived your son. The moment after you conceived your son, you were a biological father. See? I started this thread so that you could get that and now we are on pg. 22 and you still don't get that.

That IS why you started the thread, but you have been unable to scripturally show that God “conceived” from eternity, thereby “carrying” His “fully developed” Son inside of Him from eternity.

May 2, 2011 at 12:27 am#245025

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2011,11:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:44)

Mike,
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

For one thing, the 'all things' does not include the one Lord, Jesus Christ otherwise He exists through Himself. Also, there is no mention of all things coming from the substance 'within' the Father. The Psalms verse does not say anything about substance within the Father either. Sorry. If that is the best that you can do then you haven't been able to prove scripturally that all things are from the substance within the Father at all.

Kathi

Kathi,

8:6 says that all things came FROM the Father. What do you suppose “from the Father” means? From somewhere OUTSIDE the Father…………..or from WITHIN Him? (We must assume that since Jesus came from his God, that Jesus is included in the “all things” that came FROM God. But since Jesus most probably didn't come through himself, I assume that Jesus is the only thing NOT included in the “all things” that came through Jesus.)

The Psalm you quoted says, “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.” Where do you suppose the word and breath of YHWH came from? Somewhere OUTSIDE of God……………or from WITHIN Him?

They DO say what I claimed, if you think it through.

mike

If creation is defined as coming from God through Christ, then Christ cannot be created. This idea gives rise to the idea of being begotten in eternity rather than created.

We know he is begotten, but was he begotten twice, once with divine nature and then with flesh, or once, with flesh only.

Many debates here arise around these issues.

May 2, 2011 at 12:28 am#245026

Participant

Mike,
Would you like to have a one on one conversation because I have answered your question and it is crazy to get your unfounded accusations. I don't want to jump from topic to topic with you. It would just be easier to have an ongoing conversation in one place about any topic. You ask one question, I answer it, then I ask you one question and nobody allowed to interrupt. What do you think? Acceptable answers can be 'I don't know.'

Kathi

May 2, 2011 at 12:31 am#245027

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2011,19:27)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,18:23)

Mike,
I never said that He was conceived from eternity. I said that the offspring was always within Him. Also, His Spirit was always within Him.

Kathi

May 2, 2011 at 12:39 am#245028

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,19:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2011,11:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:44)

Mike,
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Kathi

Kathi,

They DO say what I claimed, if you think it through.

mike

If creation is defined as coming from God through Christ, then Christ cannot be created. This idea gives rise to the idea of being begotten in eternity rather than created.

We know he is begotten, but was he begotten twice, once with divine nature and then with flesh, or once, with flesh only.

Many debates here arise around these issues.

Good post t8. I agree.

1. He was begotten as an offspring before creation because the Father created through His 'Firstborn,' through His Son.

2. He was conceived by the Father in Mary so in that sense, He was also begotten as a man.

3. He is the firstborn from the dead and so, in that sense, He was begotten as the firstborn of many brethren regarding his humanity.

The first begettal shows divine nature.
The second begettal shows the taking on human nature also.
The third begettal shows the divine nature and human nature reunited again and glorified and given the office of mediator and High Priest.

Kathi

May 2, 2011 at 12:39 am#245029

Blocked

Quote (t8 @ May 01 2011,18:27)

This idea gives rise to the idea of being begotten in eternity rather than created.

Hi t8,

Explain to me what “begotten in eternity” means. When exactly was Jesus “inside” of God and when exactly did God bring him forth from inside Him? Was he a completly whole separate being from God while he was inside Him? Or did he become a separate being from God only when God brought him forth?

And when God did bring him forth by begetting him, why couldn't he be the firstborn of all creation as the Bible states? My son is both begotten and a creation of God, why not God's Son?

T8, are you forgetting Col 1:15, Rev 3:14, Micah 5:2, Heb 1:6 and Proverbs 8:22? Don't these teach of a time when Jesus was not by speaking of a time when he was born/created?

mike

May 2, 2011 at 12:50 am#245031

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2011,19:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:44)

Mike,
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Kathi

Kathi,

They DO say what I claimed, if you think it through.

mike

Mike,
Do you want to start with ONE of these questions, one on one?

Kathi

May 2, 2011 at 1:01 am#245034

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,18:28)

Mike,
Would you like to have a one on one conversation because I have answered your question

Kathi,

Here are some of the points that you've missed:

1. Do you have a single scripture that teaches Jesus is from eternity? YES or NO?

2. During the prayer in Acts 4, do they pray TO our Creator (singular, as in ONE), THROUGH our Creator's Holy Servant Jesus Christ? YES or NO?

3. Do the words “FROM the Father” indicate that all things came from WITHIN the Father, or from OUTSIDE of Him?

4. ALL things originally came from within God if you trace it back far enough. So why is it, out of every single thing that originally came from within God, you think only Jesus was an already existent thing before God brought him forth?

5. The scriptures NEVER mention that we have “CreatorS“, so who is our ONE Creator – the One who spoke all of creation into existence, or that One's servant(s) through whom He created? (Remember, since scripture ALWAYS mentions only ONE, you must choose either/or…………not “both”.)

6. We can assume that Jesus radiated the glory of God from the moment he existed. But does that mean that Jesus was radiating the glory of his God from eternity? (In other words, is there a scriptural reason that God's glory ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE BEEN radiated from His Son from eternity?) YES or NO?

There – that should get us started on the right track. If you want to take these questions to a debate thread and do a Q and A debate, one question from each of us per post, that's fine with me. It will be interesting to see how that actually works, since I haven't been able to find anyone who's willing to do it and stick with it. (You have to be the one to start it, or I know it will end up with “hillbilly” in the title somewhere! )

mike

May 2, 2011 at 1:39 am#245040

Participant

Mike,
Good, remember them for our discussion thread.

Kathi

May 2, 2011 at 2:54 am#245044

terraricca

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 02 2011,18:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2011,11:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2011,16:44)

Mike,
1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Kathi

Kathi,

They DO say what I claimed, if you think it through.

mike

If creation is defined as coming from God through Christ, then Christ cannot be created. This idea gives rise to the idea of being begotten in eternity rather than created.

We know he is begotten, but was he begotten twice, once with divine nature and then with flesh, or once, with flesh only.

Many debates here arise around these issues.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

so it is always Christ that was the first of creation,the beginning of creation,the first to give his live,the first to be resurrected from the earth, he is also the first to open the seals ,he is also the only one to be siting the closes to God ,because of being his son and so the only one to be created directly by God ,all other things have been created trough him.

so there only is one God ,one will ,one Christ and son,one kingdom.

Pierre

May 2, 2011 at 11:25 am#245049

Istari

Participant

All,

If Jesus is the Radiance of God.
And Jesus IS God…then…Jesus is the Radiance of …?

I read in one place 'Son of God',
then 'Son of the Father'
Does this simple premise then not say 'The Father is God'?
Plain and simple?
And the Son is the offspring of that God?
And since 'God' is a title – not a Species nor a Name then how does one say Jesus IS ALSO GOD.
The SON of a KING (a title not a species nor a name) is NOT a KING – but a PRINCE!

(Almighty) 'God' is a TITLE (Supreme Mighty One of the Spirit beings in Heaven).

A (Human) Son is a 'Son of Man'
A (Human) Son is the 'Son of (a) Father'
The Father is a Man
The Son is a Man

Ok, who is jumping up with joy saying 'Told ya, told ya!!'
Well, hold your horses…
'Man' IS a Species…….!
The Offspring of a Species is (by and large) that same Species.
Jesus is the Offspring of the Species called 'SPIRIT' ('God' is not a Species)
(Mighty King Priam of The Trojans had a wimp of a Son called Paris…)

Just remember that 'God' is not a Person – it is a TITLE (not a Name) given to the Supreme being (Person – or THING!) in it's class.
The ONE True 'God' of the Fathers and of Heaven (Whose NAME Is YHVH (in Hebrew) and 'I AM' (by English translation) is the Supreme Spirit being in HEAVEN AND the Supreme being over all other supreme beings in ALL EXISTENCE!

The Supreme being over all that is in existence CANNOT become less than that Supreme being (Else who took his place?)
And there cannot be MORE THAN ONE SUPREME BEING.

May 3, 2011 at 8:43 pm#245229

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

If he was there before all things came into being then that means he was already there in the beginning of all things.

Good try at a “fast one” Keith, but the fact remains that the phrase “of all things” is not evident in the Greek text of John 1:1 or 1:2.

Ha Ha Mike

Saying that I pulled a fast one when I posted a scripture that clearly contradicts you is like someone hitting you in the side of the head with a baseball bat and you saying that didn’t hurt.

Prove that the “all things” does not mean “all things” in John 1:3!

All things came into being through Him, and ”apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being”.

Notice the big highlighted part Mike? John makes it doubly clear that “all things” means “all things” because he clarifies his statement with…

”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.

Do you see that little word “Nothing”? It is the Greek word “heis” which is the Greek numerical number “1”.

In other words John is saying very clearly… “…Apart from him not ONE (heis) THING came into being that has come into being. Therefore Jesus was before all things including time, space and matter. John clarifies that this does not include the Father and Jesus in verse 1 and 2 when he clearly says the same Word was with the Father in the beginning of all things.

…all things were created by him, and for him: ”And HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist”. Col 1:16, 17

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

So “in the beginning” obviously refers to a time after Jesus was created by his God but before anything else was created by his God through him.

That is purely conjecture without any scriptural support. If Jesus was created then that would make him part of the creation but we know that ”…apart from Him NOTHING (not one thing) came into being that has come into being”..

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

why do you keep trying to force human terms on Jesus?

Why would you think that one who was brought forth into existence already existed eternally?

I don’t think he was brought forth until he came in the flesh. You have me confused with Kathi. I believe Jesus in every way is like the Father and that includes his nature which is eternal. Jesus was always in the Father and the Father was always in him for they share the same essence or what makes God, God.

John 1:1-3 tells us Jesus was there before all things which means before time.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

How can an eternal God literally beget an only Son who is not by nature everything that God is, which includes “Eternal”?

Adam was the son of God and made in God's image. Does that mean Adam was from eternity?

Adam is not called the “Only Begotten Son” and he was a created being in fact by Jesus. So why do you always make these lame comparisons to Jesus when everything came by or through him?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

If Jesus was God from eternity, then he was never brought forth, and therefore not the SON OF God.

So you say, but you have not produced a single scripture that says Jesus was created and brought forth before he came in the flesh have you?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Keith, if the only eternal being in existence brings forth a son, that son will most likely (but certainly not necessarily) be LIKE the father who brought him forth.

Thanks for admitting that you do not believe that Jesus is like the Father in nature! Because if the eternal God brought forth a literal Son then his nature would be like the Father in every way or he would be a freak of nature, or a demi-god. Hello Mike and t8s theory!

Is there “ANYTHING” that came into existence apart from Jesus? Yes or No?

May 3, 2011 at 8:46 pm#245230

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

And you blew off this question with a diversion: Does any human have a father/son relationship where both of them are the same being? YES or NO?

The answer is “NO” but you keep comparing finite earthly fathers and their sons with an infinite God. Your assumptions and earthy comparisons do not begin to compare to the perfect relationship and the “Oneness” that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit share!

If you want to use analogies then be honest , for instance…

Is there any relationship between a human father/son where they are not “equally” man/human?

Stick with scriptures Mike and not inference and conjecture. You need proof that God cannot be a plural unity, for the scriptures say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three yet one.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

Could it be that the relationship of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is far more intimate than you can imagine?

You hit the nail right on the head by using the word “imagine”.

Do you see the word “imagine” in my statement? You didn’t answer the question “honestly”…

Could it be that the relationship of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is far more intimate than you can imagine?

It is not a trick question Mike so why all the spin?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Keith, unlike you, I don't use my “imagination” to form my Biblical understanding…………I use what the scriptures actually say.

You mean like “John 1:1 where you have to add an “a” to the text? Or that Matt 28:19 is not a legitimate text? Or like Proverbs where you have to imagine that Jesus is in the text as being a created being? Or like Jesus is an “angelic being” and not a man? Or that Jesus is part of the creation because like all others he was created? Or that there are other true gods found in scriptures? Where are the scriptures to support your “imagination” Mike?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

If you believe that a human father and son have identical natures in every way, then why not the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

Keith, when you show me any “other” father/son relationship where the father and son are the same being, you will have a leg to stand on. Until then, you are speaking a crazy, invented language that I can't understand and that the scriptures don't support.

It is simple language Mike. Just as the essence of man is one flesh or one mankind, so is the essence of God one “Spirit” or One Godkind.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

Stop trying to make Jesus like every other created being for he is not!

What scripture tells you that Jesus begetting was like the others? He is the “Only (Monogenes) Son of God”.

Keith, these are not answers to the question I asked,…

My question is not meant to be an answer but it is meant for you to answer. When are you going to start answering questions Mike…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

… which was: Since we know that Michael and Gabriel were brought forth at some time, we know that there was also a time when they didn't exist, right? What SCRIPTURE tells you that it was different with Jesus?

I have answered you Mike. Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” and there is none other like him. Therefore your question is debunked because you cannot compare the uncreated with the created. John 1:1-3 tells us Jesus did the creating and Michael and Gabriel were brought forth by Jesus. You have my answer Mike and it is not going to be any different if you ask it again so accept it and move on or prove my answer is wrong.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Can you list a SCRIPTURE, (as opposed to your overactive imagination), that clearly tells us Jesus always existed?

Yep, John 1:1-3 and Col 1:16, 17 .

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

If you can't, then you and Kathi have NO REASON WHATSOEVER to just “assume” things that are contrary to God's own laws of nature, which say if one is brought forth, then it stands to reason there was also a time when that one did not exist.

It is you that assumes Jesus is a created being who had a beginning before he came in the flesh.

Mike I will ask you again…

Can you give me one unambiguous scripture that shows Jesus was created!

Please start with one of your proof text since you deny John 1:1-3 and turn your face against them.

May 3, 2011 at 11:09 pm#245238

Blocked

Whoa! Slow your roll there Keith! We have a misunderstanding apparently. On page 20 of this thread, you said:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2011 @ 10:32)

Before John says this he tells us that Jesus the Word that was with God and was God was already their at the beginning of all things

I assumed that you were claiming that the words “In the beginning” from John 1:1 really said “in the beginning of all things”. That's why I was saying I don't have those words in my Bible.

I now understand that you are saying if everything was created through Jesus, then he must have been there at the beginning “of all things”. You can see why I was confused, because you STILL seem to be implying that John 1:1-2 has the words “of all things” after the words “in the beginning”. See here:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Good try at a “fast one” Keith, but the fact remains that the phrase “of all things” is not evident in the Greek text of John 1:1 or 1:2.

And your most recent response:

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Ha Ha Mike

Saying that I pulled a fast one when I posted a scripture that clearly contradicts you is like someone hitting you in the side of the head with a baseball bat and you saying that didn’t hurt.

Prove that the “all things” does not mean “all things” in John 1:3!

See? I keep saying John 1:1-2, and you're arguing from 1:3. Now that I'm finally on track with what you're saying, I agree with you………………for the most part. Yes, Jesus was alone with his God before anything ELSE was created BY his God THROUGH him. My understanding is that AFTER God created “the beginning of the creation of God”, His “firstborn of all creation”, then yes, Jesus was with his God in the beginning before all OTHER things were created.

And you can't make any specific claims about the word “all”, for in 1 Cor 15:27, it says “all” things were placed under Jesus, but then adds the disclaimer that it should be obvious that the word “all” doesn't include GOD HIMSELF, who is the One who placed all these things under his Servant in the first place. Similarly, when saying “all” things were created through Jesus, it should be equally obvious that this “all” doesn't include Jesus himself, who was created directly by his God before the other things were created through him.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Therefore Jesus was before all things including time, space and matter. John clarifies that this does not include the Father and Jesus in verse 1 and 2 when he clearly says the same Word was with the Father in the beginning of all things.

Yes Keith, I get your point. Now get mine: AFTER God beget His only begotten, THEN Jesus and God were the only TWO beings (not ONE) in existence until God created all else THROUGH His only begotten.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Jesus was created then that would make him part of the creation

Yes, that's exactly what we learn from Col 1:15, Proverbs 8:22, Rev 3:14, etc. Jesus IS a part of creation…………in fact he is the beginning of it and the firstborn of it.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Adam is not called the “Only Begotten Son”

But you say Jesus wasn't even the only begotten Son until he was raised back to heaven. So how do you now try to use that title as proof of his eternity?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

So you say, but you have not produced a single scripture that says Jesus was created and brought forth before he came in the flesh have you?

Yes………….five of them so far.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Because if the eternal God brought forth a literal Son then his nature would be like the Father in every way or he would be a freak of nature, or a demi-god. Hello Mike and t8s theory!

Really Keith? So if my son is born with only half a brain, or one arm or whatever, then he is not really my son? Think again…………does my son REALLY have to be like me IN EVERY WAY?

And let me pick your brain about this: Could God decide right now to directly beget another son? Of course he could. Would THAT son who didn't even exist until right now also be FROM eternity, just because the God who begot him is?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Is there “ANYTHING” that came into existence apart from Jesus? Yes or No?

YES……………Jesus himself. We know he was the firstborn of all creation BECAUSE all other things were created through him – Paul. Col 1:15 does not mean Jesus is “preeminent” over creation, for his God has that role and title.

mike

May 3, 2011 at 11:52 pm#245239

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46)

The answer is “NO” but you keep comparing finite earthly fathers and their sons with an infinite God.

Keith, who exactly do you imagine set up the father/son relationships we all know as human beings? Why would you imagine that the One who created us to have sons that are DIFFERENT beings than we are, would Himself have a Son who is the SAME being as He is? You can PRETEND all you want that it is different with the heavenly Father and Son, but you have no scriptural reason to do so.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2011,11:36)

Could it be that the relationship of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is far more intimate than you can imagine?

You hit the nail right on the head by using the word “imagine”.

Do you see the word “imagine” in my statement? You didn’t answer the question “honestly”…

Could it be that the relationship of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is far more intimate than you can imagine?

It is not a trick question Mike so why all the spin?

Are you serious? You don't see the word “imagine” in your question – even though you posted it again?

Keith, you are right that you are imagining much of what you claim as scriptural fact. I don't base my scriptural knowledge on the things I can imagine, but instead on the written words of God Himself.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46)

Keith, it's funny that every single one of these claims I've made are COMPLETELY scriptural, yet you poke fun at them. I'm awaiting your answer in the “Freak Greek” thread about the first point you've mentioned here, and in the “One question for Keith” thread about the last one. We have recently discussed that the Greek word we translate as “angel” is “aggelos, which means “messenger” each and every time it is used in the NT. And since Jesus was most definitely both a human messenger and a spirit messenger of his God, then he is an “angel” of his God.

If you like, we can do a Q and A debate thread about the three points you made that we're not already discussing in a debate thread. But if you're too scared to even answer my last questions in the debates we DO have going, then you're probably too scared to put your money where your mouth is with these other three points. And if you're too scared to discuss them individually and get to the bottom of them, then you're really not in a position to be poking fun at them, are you?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46)

It is simple language Mike. Just as the essence of man is one flesh or one mankind, so is the essence of God one “Spirit” or One Godkind.

No Keith. Nothing at all about the trinity doctrine involves “simple language”. Jesus used simple language. But those who try to support the trinity must make up completely new, ludicrous words and ideas to cover their butts on the fact they've bought into a nonsensical idea that can't possibly be supported with “simple language”. Your newest thread about some “Hypostatic Union” is a perfect example of this.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46)

My question is not meant to be an answer but it is meant for you to answer.

Okay, that's fine. But answering MY question with questions of your own is not really an answer to MY question, is it?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:46)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,20:30)

Keith, that is NOT an answer. John 1:1-3 does NOT say “Jesus was from eternity”, does it? And the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son says he DID have a beginni
ng, not that he DIDN'T have one. So I want an actual ANSWER to my question, or for you to say, “There isn't a scripture, but I imagine it to be this way.”

I've taken some of your points from this post to another “Question for Keith” thread. Please address them there.

mike

May 4, 2011 at 6:26 pm#245293

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

You can see why I was confused, because you STILL seem to be implying that John 1:1-2 has the words “of all things” after the words “in the beginning”. See here:

Yes of course you were confused because that is how you view John 1:1, 2 and that is out of context of verse three. John 1:1-3 is proof that “all Creation” not “all creation” except Jesus who was created before all things were created. That is called inference and adding to the text.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Now that I'm finally on track with what you're saying, I agree with you………………for the most part.

Yes I know you don’t agree with the text literally because you think that there was a beginning of all things that were created before the beginning of all things that were created. It’s just more of you confusing and convoluted doctrine. It goes like this…

“All Things that came into existence were created with the Father in the beginning in John 1:1-3, but the “all things” does not “literally” mean all things for the Father created “all things” including Jesus in “a beginning” before the beginning of 'all things.” So there are the “All things with Jesus” and the “All things without Jesus”. Does that sound right?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Yes, Jesus was alone with his God before anything ELSE was created BY his God THROUGH him. My understanding is that AFTER God created “the beginning of the creation of God”, His “firstborn of all creation”, then yes, Jesus was with his God in the beginning before all OTHER things were created.

Were all things literally born from God and if not then how can Jesus be the firstborn in the sense you say? Who was the second born of creation?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Yes Keith, I get your point. Now get mine: AFTER God beget His only begotten, THEN Jesus and God were the only TWO beings (not ONE) in existence until God created all else THROUGH His only begotten.

You haven’t proven your point with any scripture that can not be interpreted in other ways, have you?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

If Jesus was created then that would make him part of the creation

Yes, that's exactly what we learn from Col 1:15, Proverbs 8:22, Rev 3:14, etc. Jesus IS a part of creation…………in fact he is the beginning of it and the firstborn of it.

Those scriptures do not prove Jesus is part of the creation or that he had a beginning. Even t8 disagrees with you Mike!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Adam is not called the “Only Begotten Son”

But you say Jesus wasn't even the only begotten Son until he was raised back to heaven. So how do you now try to use that title as proof of his eternity?

I have said no such thing. I have said Jesus begetting is from eternity but the word begetting is not meaning came into existence just as the begetting of the nation of Israel and Isaac. I have said Jesus was literally begotten as a man and when he was resurrected. I have shown you that Pss 2:7 speaks of the resurrection when Jesus sat in the Fathers throne and the Father declared “This day I have begotten you”!

May 4, 2011 at 6:27 pm#245294

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Because if the eternal God brought forth a literal Son then his nature would be like the Father in every way or he would be a freak of nature, or a demi-god. Hello Mike and t8s theory!

Really Keith? So if my son is born with only half a brain, or one arm or whatever, then he is not really my son? Think again…………does my son REALLY have to be like me IN EVERY WAY?

So what are you saying, that the Father brought birth to a retarded, limbless son?

Man your analogies are desperate and even foolish. The Father has a perfect Son and their nature and relationship is perfect. So once again… if the eternal God brought forth a literal Son then his nature would be like the Father in every way or he would be a freak of nature, or a demi-god.

Mike is your son in nature identical to your nature as a man or not?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

This is more of your ridiculous hypotheticals as if they mean anything. Mike God doesn’t procreate period. But if he did in every sense he would be God like the Father is God! God would not have a iteral Son who was incomplete or imperfect and not exactly like him in every way!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,18:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2011,14:43)

Is there “ANYTHING” that came into existence apart from Jesus? Yes or No?

YES……………Jesus himself.

Then you don’t believe Johns words…

”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.

Do you see that little word “Nothing”? It is the Greek word “heis” which is the Greek numerical number “1”.

…all things were created by him, and for him: ”And HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist”. Col 1:16, 17

Since Time, Matter, and Space is included in the ”…apart from Him NOTHING came into being that has come into being”.

Then Jesus was before time meaning eternity past! Anything that was before the beginning had no beginning, and that is Johns point!

Does Col 1:15 teach that the creation was literally born of God?

If not then how can Jesus be the literal firstborn of creation?

May 5, 2011 at 3:01 am#245338