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Quote (t8 @ May 23 2009,14:39) So I don't know how else to explain it to you but to say that you trust in a belief that has no evidence or proof. Simple as that.
And also as simple as your trust in your belief that the creator was not the venerable god juju, a belief for which you have no evidence or proof.My agnosticism says I do not know, and so should yours. My atheism says there are no gods, and so does yours, save ONE Imaginary Friend.
Stuart
Stu……….You have waded into the waters of (MODERN CHRISTIANITY) and because most truly do not have any proof of this unseen GOD you assume all have not. This is an assumption on your part. You said that, saying Faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things Not Seeing, is a oxymoron . Which it is not, it tells us what True Faith produces (HOPE) and how this (Hope) is brought about, through (EVIDENCE) of the unseen GOD. Thats not an oxymoron. An oxymoron is like a (square circle), no such thing.
Listen do you think people in scripture were just convinced by someone saying something and them just gullible believing it. Nothing could be further from the truth my friend. Even Moses was convinced by a talking burning Bush, and the Egyptians by Great Plagues and signs that even turned the hardened Heart of Pharaoh to believe in this (UNSEEN GOD). Gideon was so unsure GOD was telling Him to do Something He ask for signs to (PROVE) it was GOD. Even Paul a persecutor of Christianity was struck down and given a sign of GOD existence. The very word of the apostles were confirmed by sign that followed them. Proof abound every where in scriptures.
Jesus said their was a poor widow who need help in a matter , so she went to this Judge and He keep putting her off, but she kept coming back and this went on for days and months until finely the Judge said to himself “Though I don't fear GOD nor respect Man, i am going to hear this women least her continual coming wear me out”. Then Jesus said did you hear what this (UNJUST) Judge said, and will not GOD (who obviously is a Just Judge) avenge His elect who cry unto him day and night, will he put them off (like the unjust Judge did), I tell you He (GOD) will avenge them (SPEEDILY), never the less when the son of man comes will He FIND FAITH upon the earth. (answer, I doubt it) IMO.
Stu…….The GOD i know is a GOD of PROOF. At lest in my life He has been, I would not ask you to believe anything without Proof, that would be a fool or a presumptuous Person that did that. But i can't give you that proof it must come from GOD Himself. I have mine now, you need to find yours. IMO
Peace and love………………..gene
Quote (Stu @ May 23 2009,16:32) If it is the evidence of the unseen then you are still blind to god. Stuart
There you go Stu. You say that if you can't see it, then it doesn't exist.So that must include baryons, black holes, radio waves, and Bill from England too.
To actually see something is to understand it in your mind.
Your eyes are just one way of enabling your mind to see Stu. The images are converted in the brain so the mind can make sense of it. I thought you would have understood that, but I guess you are blind to the concept of what seeing means.Now I know why you are blind to God, because you rely on those 2 holes in your skull called eyes.
Can you see what I am saying, or do you still require your eyes before any understanding is to be had?
gene
Quote You have waded into the waters of (MODERN CHRISTIANITY) and because most truly do not have any proof of this unseen GOD you assume all have not. This is an assumption on your part.
No, it is a conclusion based on the fact that no christian has ever provided any evidence that could not be evidence for any other god, or even any evidence needs any god to explain it.Quote You said that, saying Faith is the substance of things hoped for , the evidence of things Not Seeing, is a oxymoron . Which it is not, it tells us what True Faith produces (HOPE) and how this (Hope) is brought about, through (EVIDENCE) of the unseen GOD. Thats not an oxymoron. An oxymoron is like a (square circle), no such thing.
Yeah, evidence is something anyone could see (or in some way sense). That is why it is an oxymoron: the thing that you can’t see that will be seen to be believed. You have nothing like that to show. You are essentially a con artist in the manner of Paul.Quote Listen do you think people in scripture were just convinced by someone saying something and them just gullible believing it.
Yes, absolutely. Given the ease with which some people have started religions and christian sects, you must see that too surely.Quote Nothing could be further from the truth my friend.
Are you a preacher?!Quote Even Moses was convinced by a talking burning Bush, and the Egyptians by Great Plagues and signs that even turned the hardened Heart of Pharaoh to believe in this (UNSEEN GOD).
And look at how these superstitious humans took normal occurrences and invented supernatural explanations for them. Did pharoah ‘turn’ out of conviction or fear of the supernatural?Quote Gideon was so unsure GOD was telling Him to do Something He ask for signs to (PROVE) it was GOD.
As should anyone. Interesting that so often when you ask for evidence, christians plead that one should not test god. Yet that is exactly what Gideon did, and he was answered. It was good enough for him, why not for us today? Does god just expose himself to those who may be helpful to him?Quote Even Paul a persecutor of Christianity was struck down and given a sign of GOD existence. The very word of the apostles were confirmed by sign that followed them. Proof abound every where in scriptures.
Yawn. Saul of Tarsus was a self-righteous homophobic bigot who put words in Jesus’s mouth posthumously that I rather think would have appalled his alleged speaker. In any case it is a reasonable thing to doubt the very existence of Jesus, let alone anything he is alleged to have said or done.Paul’s fear was that people would call him on his delusion and so he spent a great deal of time and words fortifying the faithful against critical thinking. The evidence for THAT is what abounds in the NT.
Quote Jesus said their was a poor widow who need help in a matter , so she went to this Judge and He keep putting her off, but she kept coming back and this went on for days and months until finely the Judge said to himself “Though I don't fear GOD nor respect Man,
…the only difference is that christians fear god…Quote i am going to hear this women least her continual coming wear me out”. Then Jesus said did you hear what this (UNJUST) Judge said, and will not GOD (who obviously is a Just Judge)
You have got to be joking! How was your god’s treatment of Uzzah just?? What about Lot’s wife?Quote avenge His elect who cry unto him day and night, will he put them off (like the unjust Judge did), I tell you He (GOD) will avenge them (SPEEDILY), never the less when the son of man comes will He FIND FAITH upon the earth. (answer, I doubt it) IMO.
…and slew they the goats and put the bits in little pots…Just like Monty Python’s satire, “avenging the elect” is nonsense rhyme.
Quote The GOD i know is a GOD of PROOF.
But not proof enough to convince me.Quote At lest in my life He has been, I would not ask you to believe anything without Proof, that would be a fool or a presumptuous Person that did that. But i can't give you that proof it must come from GOD Himself. I have mine now, you need to find yours. IMO
Perhaps ‘he’ is not interested in my salvation. I pity you wanting to spend an eternity with an unjust fictional character more brutal than any in all mythology. You are wrong, your god’s brutality has blinded you I think. The good news is that none of it is true.Even more peace back to you!
Stuart
t8
Quote There you go Stu. You say that if you can't see it, then it doesn't exist.
No. I have been very careful not to say that.Quote So that must include baryons, black holes, radio waves, and Bill from England too.
We can ‘see’ all of those things.Quote To actually see something is to understand it in your mind.
Your eyes are just one way of enabling your mind to see Stu. The images are converted in the brain so the mind can make sense of it. I thought you would have understood that, but I guess you are blind to the concept of what seeing means.
I feel sure you are going to get to your interesting point soon…Quote Now I know why you are blind to God, because you rely on those 2 holes in your skull called eyes. Can you see what I am saying, or do you still require your eyes before any understanding is to be had?
I was wrong, you made no interesting point at all. Seeing is, as you say comprehending, but also using all the senses we have and all the technological extensions we have made for them.[/quote]
None of that seeing and understanding we have done provides any reason to think there are gods, or that the perception of gods is not entirely contained in the brain of the perceiver. We have much reason to think that supernatural beliefs are a byproduct of some evolutionary adaptation that conferred some other advantage, and indeed it is all in the mind.Stuart
OK Stu. Men are often right in their own eyes. We understand you dilemma. This is usually because they lack the experience of others and cannot listen to what they have to say.
So your truth is that which you see with your eyes and that is of course extremely limited.
Which by the way is the definition of narrow mindedness.
Quote (t8 @ May 24 2009,17:53) OK Stu. Men are often right in their own eyes. We understand you dilemma. This is usually because they lack the experience of others and cannot listen to what they have to say. So your truth is that which you see with your eyes and that is of course extremely limited.
Which by the way is the definition of narrow mindedness.
…along with the narrow mindedness of ignoring what one is replying to…Your claims of truth are not supported by the reality of evidence. Mine are. If reality tells me I am wrong I have no choice but to accept it. What if reality tells you that you are wrong, t8? What has been your track record on that score?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ May 18 2009,00:22) That is right WJ. To say that you can know for sure that God doesn't exist, you must be all knowing.
How sure are you that unicorns and leprechauns don't exist?Stu said:
Quote our claims of truth are not supported by the reality of evidence. Mine are. If reality tells me I am wrong I have no choice but to accept it. What if reality tells you that you are wrong, t8? What has been your track record on that score? Stu,
You keep saying that your truth is supported by the reality of evidence. What evidence? You were given evidence from the fossil record and you called it a “bald faced lie” without making an attempt to disprove it.thinker
Quote (kejonn @ May 25 2009,08:47) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2009,00:22) That is right WJ. To say that you can know for sure that God doesn't exist, you must be all knowing.
How sure are you that unicorns and leprechauns don't exist?
Your point being…thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 25 2009,11:56) Stu said: Quote our claims of truth are not supported by the reality of evidence. Mine are. If reality tells me I am wrong I have no choice but to accept it. What if reality tells you that you are wrong, t8? What has been your track record on that score? Stu,
You keep saying that your truth is supported by the reality of evidence. What evidence? You were given evidence from the fossil record and you called it a “bald faced lie” without making an attempt to disprove it.thinker
All the evidence supports my view. Can you give me a single example of empirical evidence that does not?What fossil evidence did you present?
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ May 25 2009,08:47) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2009,00:22) That is right WJ. To say that you can know for sure that God doesn't exist, you must be all knowing.
How sure are you that unicorns and leprechauns don't exist?
A believer in the KJV should be sure that unicorns DO exist.Not sure about leprechauns: maybe the OT stories about the nephelims took up so much room they had to edit out the stories of the leprechauns. Shame, really, they could have fitted that in by dropping one of the tedious genealogies that Paul warns us against.
Stuart
To all: Here is an interesting thing. Many questions have been asked about proof of God.You cannot prove God is! You cannot prove God is not. Believing is the connection. Now lets take a look at the world we live in. About 90% of the information we are exposed to is through heresay,gossip, media,magazines,books,tv,radio,news,et.al.! Very little actual first hand information, experienced by the individual himself. What I am saying is believing is the key to almost all that we know. We each create ourselves by choosing what we deem as truth worthy to be accepted. You are what you have chosen to believe.You experience what you have chosen to accept as truth. Jesus said guard your heart/mind with all diligence for from it flow the issues or circumstances of your life. You are in charge of your own life. God is not controlling this world or your life.If God were controlling this world it would be perfect!!The Earth was given to mankind. Thats why it is called your life.Thats why its important to ask God or make known to God your requests. If you don't he cannot usurp your free will choice. Your mind is full of billions of thoughts and beliefs that have been garnered over the years. Very little is substantiated, proven truth, experienced personally. We live by faith. Blessings to all, TK
We live by trust. We trust the weatherman because he bases his predictions on the work of scientists who have some demonstrated skill in predicting the weather, and have a social contract with the public regarding the state of their science and the quality of the information they provide. We trust the doctor because we know they are intelligent people who have committed themselves to the Hippocratic Oath and the social contract of providing the best care they can. We ONLY live on faith in regards to those things we insist on taking on NO evidence, such as alien abductions, astrology, tarot cards and christianity.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 25 2009,12:38) We live by trust. We trust the weatherman because he bases his predictions on the work of scientists who have some demonstrated skill in predicting the weather, and have a social contract with the public regarding the state of their science and the quality of the information they provide. We trust the doctor because we know they are intelligent people who have committed themselves to the Hippocratic Oath and the social contract of providing the best care they can. We ONLY live on faith in regards to those things we insist on taking on NO evidence, such as alien abductions, astrology, tarot cards and christianity. Stuart
faith [fayth]
(plural faiths)
n
1. belief or trust: belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof
I wouldn't put my faith in him to straighten things out.2. religion or religious group: a system of religious belief, or the group of people who adhere to it
3. trust in God: belief in and devotion to God
Her faith is unwavering.Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Lineon
There it is then. Faith is trust without “logical proof”. I think the examples I gave of each stand as accurate.
Stuart
There it is then. Faith is trust without “logical proof”. I think the examples I gave of each stand as accurate.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 25 2009,22:38) We live by trust. We trust the weatherman because he bases his predictions on the work of scientists who have some demonstrated skill in predicting the weather, and have a social contract with the public regarding the state of their science and the quality of the information they provide. We trust the doctor because we know they are intelligent people who have committed themselves to the Hippocratic Oath and the social contract of providing the best care they can. We ONLY live on faith in regards to those things we insist on taking on NO evidence, such as alien abductions, astrology, tarot cards and christianity. Stuart
And you have faith that there is no God and that nothing was the most likely candidate that was the first cause.No matter how you frame your argument, or say that you are not required to be judged because you do NOT believe, the fact is that you have your own faith in the notion that God doesn't exist. And worse still, you have no actual proof whether that is with a finite instrument or experiential proof that he doesn't exist.
At least I can say that my faith has evidence. That evidence is obviously not good enough for you to take at face value and fair enough, but it is your own evidence and experience that is important when it comes to understanding the Infinite. Finite understanding and instruments are truly inadequate when it comes to infinite. e.g., if you were looking for the existence of a exoplanet with a magnifying glass from the $2 shop, then the result will be that exoplanets do not exist.
I would also like to point out that nothing being the cause of anything, is so illogical that you could call it stupidity, and it seems more likely that Leprechauns could exist compared to nothing actually being able to do anything. Nothing by definition is the lack of something. It is not a thing in itself.
Quote (kejonn @ May 25 2009,08:47) Quote (t8 @ May 18 2009,00:22) That is right WJ. To say that you can know for sure that God doesn't exist, you must be all knowing.
How sure are you that unicorns and leprechauns don't exist?
Yeah right KJ.If Leprechauns exist then it doesn't matter, but the evidence is not there from what I can see.
If God exists, it matters immensely and the universe is the best proof you are going to get. Prophecy might come in second place. Ignoring of course, personal experience with God.
Of course if you want to join the club that says nothing was the first cause, then go right ahead. You will have to of course turn a blind eye from the fact that nothing is nothing and cannot do anything and that nothing is the lack of something and not a thing in it self because even self is something.
e.g., no oxygen is the lack of oxygen. No God is the lack of a God. Darkness is just the lack of light and so on.
But yes go right on and create a fable if that makes you feel better. I put my trust and faith in God and you do not. Nothing new about that. It has been happening longer than you and I existed.
If you put your faith in the lack of God, then that is your choice. Your ability to choose extends to the point where you are allowed to be silly.
t8
Quote And you have faith that there is no God and that nothing was the most likely candidate that was the first cause.
You were not able to justify claiming that I could have ‘faith’ in something that I think does not exist, and I don’t think you will be able to justify the need for a first cause, or satisfactorily explain how your causing agent somehow, magically does not need a cause itself. You seem to want it both ways but there is no substance to either claim.Quote No matter how you frame your argument, or say that you are not required to be judged because you do NOT believe, the fact is that you have your own faith in the notion that God doesn't exist.
So now I have faith in a notion, not a thing that does not exist. The sound of the goalposts moving is deafening.Quote And worse still, you have no actual proof whether that is with a finite instrument or experiential proof that he doesn't exist.
I have no actual proof for anything except in mathematics. There is no evidence that contradicts my view, although I cannot start showing you evidence against the existence of your god because like any imaginary friend it is hidden beyond testing. You cannot say what would be different if there had been no god, therefore there is no direct evidence against it, as I have explained already.Quote At least I can say that my faith has evidence. That evidence is obviously not good enough for you to take at face value and fair enough, but it is your own evidence and experience that is important when it comes to understanding the Infinite.
Your evidence is non-existent. I do not require proof. If this god you worship is as you say it is there should be evidence everywhere. Indeed we should expect the IDers to be right that complex cell parts are irreducibly complex. Yet they are not. There is not a single fact that supports the existence of any deities at all. Doesn’t that shock you?Why does your experience trump the experiences of others who claim there are no gods? You think they are wrong, yet you cannot see how you could be wrong.
Quote Finite understanding and instruments are truly inadequate when it comes to infinite.
Now you are an expert on infinity. I call your bluff on that well and truly.Quote e.g., if you were looking for the existence of a exoplanet with a magnifying glass from the $2 shop, then the result will be that exoplanets do not exist.
No the result is that there is no evidence to be had for them by that method. While we can physically detect planets around other stars now, we still have not one single scrap of universally accepted evidence for your god by any means of looking. There is no evidence to be had by using $2 eyepieces, or looking at the complexity of cells, or prayer, or anything. Of course it does not help the search when two christians cannot agree on what it is we might be expecting to find, and the reasons they want others to look is almost certainly products of their imaginations to judge from other common delusions.Quote I would also like to point out that nothing being the cause of anything, is so illogical that you could call it stupidity,
I certainly would call it that too. How could ‘nothing’ cause anything?Quote and it seems more likely that Leprechauns could exist compared to nothing actually being able to do anything. Nothing by definition is the lack of something. It is not a thing in itself.
Hooray! We have got to the point where ‘nothing’ is no longer being used as a concrete noun.Stuart
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