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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2010,22:37) Kerwin………Wrong Samuel's Spirit was still in existence. His Soul was dead He did not exist as a Soul any longer and will not until he receives another Body and Spirit added back into IT. A soul = a body and spirit. A soul can not exist without both. IMO peace and love…………………gene
If the spirit is the breath of life then it is obvious that a dead person does not have the breath of life because they are dead.Perhaps you think a spirit and the breath of life are different?
Kerwin…….The Spirit is the Spark that gives life to Matter , God took Matter of the Earth and Added Spirit into it and it became a Living Soul. If your spirit were removed from you, you simply would be just matter and would no longer exist as a Soul any longer. Spirits is what animates our minds and bodies, without it we die or parish. If GOD were not to resurrect a Body and add Spirit back into it we would simply parish, as Jesus said (BOTH) things would be destroyed in the GRAVE, the BODY and SOUL, which is a (body + spirit). Spirit is Spirit and can never die it never could die, but it does no one any good if it has no body for that spirit to be in. It is crucial for us to attain to a resurrection of our Bodies, just as it was for Jesus also. Scripture says that GOD would not allow HIS (SOUL) to see corruption. A soul does see corruption (IN THE GRAVE)> If GOD were to retract the Spirit from matter all souls would parish and no longer exist. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2010,09:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2010,22:37) Kerwin………Wrong Samuel's Spirit was still in existence. His Soul was dead He did not exist as a Soul any longer and will not until he receives another Body and Spirit added back into IT. A soul = a body and spirit. A soul can not exist without both. IMO peace and love…………………gene
If the spirit is the breath of life then it is obvious that a dead person does not have the breath of life because they are dead.Perhaps you think a spirit and the breath of life are different?
KWyou right the body +the breath of live make your soul,
the spirit is a gift that only comes to the ones who seek God,
because it is God who give it.this is were it is written what you do, in the book,HiT,
The body immediately begins to corrupt at death till it becomes dust.
The soul is different and salvation of the soul is the plan of God.Gene Balthrop,
My point is about the spirit and not about the flesh. When one dies the breath life leaves them. At this time they are considered dead. Now there is evidence in scripture of their existence after wards. Samuel's apparition is an example of this evidence. If Samuel is dead at the time the witch summons him then he does not have the spark of life.
Kerwin……….The Spirit (NEVER) Dies, Samuel's Spirit was still in tact. But Samuel as a SOUL had Perished, his body turned back to matter and no longer functioned, he was no longer a separate being. There are many scriptures that shows this to be true, here is just some of them. Job 33:18, Psa 16:10, Psa 30:3, Psa 22:20, Psa 22:29, Psa 33:19….> shows the soul can die by famine .
peace and love………………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2010,07:18) HiT,
The body immediately begins to corrupt at death till it becomes dust.
The soul is different and salvation of the soul is the plan of God.
Nick……….You say this but Show us were scripture say a soul exists without a Body, outside of GOD Himself.peace and love………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ May 03 2010,06:37) Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2010,09:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2010,22:37) Kerwin………Wrong Samuel's Spirit was still in existence. His Soul was dead He did not exist as a Soul any longer and will not until he receives another Body and Spirit added back into IT. A soul = a body and spirit. A soul can not exist without both. IMO peace and love…………………gene
If the spirit is the breath of life then it is obvious that a dead person does not have the breath of life because they are dead.Perhaps you think a spirit and the breath of life are different?
KWyou right the body +the breath of live make your soul,
the spirit is a gift that only comes to the ones who seek God,
because it is God who give it.this is were it is written what you do, in the book,
terraricca, Kerwin, Nick…………..Scripture say GOD who (IS) Spirit enlightens (EVERY) man coming into the world.Joh 1:9…..> That was the true Light which lightens (EVERY) Man that comes into the world.
The Spirit is the LIGHT (intellect) of the SOUL . A Soul consists of a BODY with SPIRIT (IN) IT. When a man dies He no longer exists as a Separate SOUL. The Spirit in him returns to him who gave it to him.
Ecc 12:7…..> Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the Spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it.
There is nothing else mentioned that is left of a man . The Soul has TWO Parts, the flesh, which corrupts in the grave and the spirit which returns to GOD, nothing more is mentioned there in Ecc 12:7 , because there is nothing more left.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
G,
Our God is the Father of lights.[jas 1.17]
He is the Father of spirits.[Heb 12.9]No intellect spoken of except in your mind
Nick……..SPIRIT (IS) OUR INTELLECT. Why cant you understand that. If your INTELLECT was removed from you you would go around like a babbling Idiot. It is what is (IN)your mind Nick. You still do not believe what Jesus said spirit was do you Nick? Just think about what a (WORD) Is Nick, is it not the (EXPRESSION OF ONES INTELLECT), AND WHEN WE ARE TOLD TO TRY THE SPIRITS TO SEE IF THEY ARE OF GOD , THEN WHAT ARE WE TRYING Nick?. Is it not their WORDS? Think about it NICK.
peace and love………………..gene
Quote NIck…………You are absolutely wrong, the SOUL is INDEED the PERSON and the PERSON INCLUDES a BODY with SPIRIT IN IT> –gene
Gene, I'm wondering what you think of dead people, dead souls? In Leviticus, Numbers and Haggai, we find the phrase “dead soul” about 12 times. (Or, “soul of someone dead.” Heb., ne′phesh meth; LXX, “deceased soul”; Sy, “soul of the dead”; Lat., mor′tu·um, “someone dead.”)
I understand what you are saying about adam becoming a living soul when God added spirit. Adam became a living soul at that point.
But often soul just means the person. “Santa is a jolly old soul.” It's just referring to santa as a person. Santa is a jolly old person. When santa dies (perish the thought) he would be a dead person, or dead soul.Here is an extremely large thread on the soul:
David…….We are told when a man dies , his thoughts PARISH, He no longer has thought, the Spirit he dad goes back to its source, His Body decomposes in the grave , He is gone for ever, unless GOD the FATHER resurrects Him a NEW Body and adds Spirit back into it , he is gone for ever. Jesus would have been eternally dead if He did not have his body resurected and rejoined with Spirit, and He then became a LIVING SOUL AGAIN. The same with Us. God can destory (BOTH) (two things)BODY and SOUL (IN) The GRAVE. As Jesus Said. Jesus has a (BODY) Now and will come back with a Body , he is a Living Soul as the result of His resurrection. A SOUL consists of (TWO Things) a Body + Spirit in it = a SOUL, rather Animal or MAN. A resurrection is Necessary for any Soul to exist again. ONLY GOD can EXIST without a BODY and He lives (IN) his CREATION> He is the LIFE of HIS CREATION> IMO
David the thread you mentioned is a good thread it shows you did your home work Brother.
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene Balthrop,
I am curious about what what you believe is the purpose of the soul is in the Human body and what scripture you use to support that belief on?
The same is true about the spirit.
You state that a dead person no longer exists and yet Samuel who was dead obviously exists when the witch of Endor summons him.
Samuel's response to being summoned does show he did exist for he said “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” , 1 Samuel 28:15.
Peter on speaking of his death also does not support your hypothesis as he stated “… as long as I live in the tent of this body”;3 Peter 1:13
and in Daniel we are told:
Daniel 12:13(NIV) reads:
Quote “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
Quote David…….We are told when a man dies , his thoughts PARISH, He no longer has thought, the Spirit he dad goes back to its source, His Body decomposes in the grave , He is gone for ever, unless GOD the FATHER resurrects Him a NEW Body and adds Spirit back into it , he is gone for ever. Jesus would have been eternally dead if He did not have his body resurected and rejoined with Spirit, and He then became a LIVING SOUL AGAIN. Gene, I agree with essentially everything you have been saying about the soul. And I've never really thought too much about this subject, but since the Bible mentioned dead souls, meaning dead people, that is why I questioned your words:
Quote NIck…………You are absolutely wrong, the SOUL is INDEED the PERSON and the PERSON INCLUDES a BODY with SPIRIT IN IT>
Yes, a LIVE person includes a body with spirit in it. No spirit, and the soul (person) dies. They become a dead soul. The fact that you say: “rejoined with Spirit, and He then became a LIVING SOUL AGAIN” indicates that souls can be dead, for if “soul” automatically means “living being” then there is no point in ever using the phrase “living soul.”It seems like we are both making an argument out of nothing here, though. I'm just saying that the Bible many times uses the the phrase “dead soul” and hence, we can too. Dead soul, dead person, same thing.
Quote You state that a dead person no longer exists and yet Samuel who was dead obviously exists when the witch of Endor summons him. –kerwin.
Hi Kerwin. I'm not sure which thread it's in, I'll try to find it, but this has been discussed at length. There is evidence to believe that it was not the dead Samuel that was speaking.
I'll go find it. Also, you say:
Quote I am curious about what what you believe is the purpose of the soul is in the Human body
The problem is, often the soul is not spoken of as being “in” the human body. The person “IS” the soul. Adam for instance became or was a soul. Adam was a soul (person.) Adam wasn't said to “have” a soul (person) in him. Adam WAS a soul.It gets tricky because the world soul isn't just used in this way. It's used in basically 4 ways, or really, 2 basic ways if you leave animals out of it.
1. A soul is a person.
2. A soul is an animal.
3. A soul is the life of a person.
4. A soul is the life of an animal.This is what the Bible shows. For all the scriptural references, click on this link:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=120
Since the word “soul” is used in those 2 basic ways (person and life of the person) things get confusing. And then when some people start confusing “spirit” with soul, it becomes even more confusing.
ANIMALS ARE SOULS
Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9A LIVING PERSON OR INDIVIDUAL IS A SOUL
Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14THE CREATURE SOUL IS MORTAL, DESTRUCTIBLE
Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3LIFE AS AN INTELLIGENT PERSON
Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16SOUL DELIVERD FROM SHEOL OR HADES
Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; 86:13; 89:48; Pr 23:14; Ac 2:27DEAD SOUL, OR CORPSE
Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12SOUL DISTINGUISHED FROM SPIRIT
Php 1:27; 1Th 5:23; Heb 4:12GOD HAS SOUL
1Sa 2:35; Ps 11:5; 24:4; Pr 6:16; Isa 1:14; 42:1; Jer 5:9; 6:8; 12:7; 14:19; 15:1; 32:41; 51:14; La 3:20; Eze 23:18; Am 6:8; Mt 12:18; Heb 10:38Bible scriptures with the word “soul” in them. (I started looking them up individually)
Samuel and the Witch of Endor
Ok, I know it's in the giganitic “soul” thread, but I can't find it. Here's some things to ponder on the Samuel situation with the witch of endor.
“You state that a dead person no longer exists and yet Samuel who was dead obviously exists when the witch of Endor summons him.”–Kerwin
Read 1 Samuel 28:4-20
Before saying anything, I would like to say this: GOD HATES SPIRITISTIC PRACTICES, and there is a reason for that. WHY?
Why does God Almighty so loathe those who consult spirit mediums? (Deut 18:9-12) Why does he view them as unclean? (Lev. 19:31)If we really could talk to our dead loved ones, why would a God of love condemn it as something “detestable” and “unclean”?
(Kerwin, how would you answer that?)Even though God had legislated strictly against spiritism, spirit mediums appeared from time to time in the land of Israel. These were probably foreigners who came into the land or some of those who had been spared from destruction by the Israelites.
King Saul removed them from the land during his reign, but evidently toward the end of his rule some spirit mediums again began their practice. SAUL DEMONSTRATED HOW FAR HE HAD REMOVED HIMSELF FROM GOD when he went to consult the “mistress of spirit mediumship in En-dor.”—1Sa 28:3, 7-10.Now, let’s look at what the account says, and what the Bible says.
In the fortieth year of his reign King Saul faces a battle with the Philistines near Mount Gilboa. Realizing that he is abandoned by Jehovah God, he turns to witchcraft,* which he had at the beginning banned from his kingdom. By night, and disguised, he visits a surviving witch at Endor and tries to communicate through her with dead Samuel for information.
*A Merriam Webster definition for “witchcraft” is: “communication with the devil or with a familiar.” So I think it applies.You said that the Bible says that Saul “knew” that it was Samuel. Interestingly, the KJV says that he “perceived” that it was Samuel. (Verse 14) Encarta says one possible meaning of “perceive” is: “to understand or interpret something in a particular way.” And yes, there is no question that Saul did “perceive” or interpret things that way. But look closely at verses 13 and 14. Verses 13, 14 show that Saul himself did not see Samuel but only assumed from the description given by the spirit medium that she saw Samuel. (Please read that last line again.) Saul desperately wanted to believe that it was Samuel and so let himself be deceived. (Such is also the case today, when people go to frauds, who call themselves psychics. They are desparately wanting to beleive.)
On hearing her description of an old man with a sleeveless coat, Saul assumed or “perceived” this apparition to be Samuel.
(Most Bible’s have the word “knew” here. Some have “realized,” or “recognized,” or “perceived” (KJV))AND WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE given by this “Samuel”? Israel would be given into Philistine hands, and the next day Saul and his sons would be with “Samuel,” indicating that they would die while fighting the Philistines. (1 Samuel 28:4-19) Is that what happened?
Not “tomorrow,” as “Samuel” incorrectly says, but a number of days later King Saul and three, not all, of his sons fall in battle at Mount Gilboa. (His son Ish-bosheth survived him.)—1 Sam. 28:4-25; 31:1-13.
Question: Does dying somehow give a person the ability to fortell the future? If so, why did “Samuel” do it so badly. And if not, why would “Samuel” think he could, or try to do something he couldn’t do? We know that the Devil and his demons like to mislead. We know that “Samuel’s” prophecies were not from Jehovah because they were wrong and Jehovah was not answering Saul at this time. (verse 6) As well, Jehovah hates spiritism. If Jehovah was not behind this, then who?
When Saul went to the medium, Jehovah’s spirit had for some time been removed from him, and in fact, God would not answer his inquiries by means of dreams or by the Urim (used by the high priest) or by the prophets. (1Sa 28:6) God would have no more to do with him; and God’s prophet Samuel had not seen Saul for a long period of time, from before David’s being anointed to be king. So IT IS UNREASONABLE TO THINK THAT SAMUEL, EVEN IF STILL ALIVE, WOULD NOW COME TO GIVE SAUL ADVICE. And God would certainly not cause Samuel, whom he had not sent to Saul before his death, to come back from the dead to talk to Saul.—1Sa 15:35.
We are told that “Although Saul would inquire of Jehovah, Jehovah never answered him, either by dreams or by the Úrim or by the prophets.” (28:6) Could Saul trick Jehovah by going about this another way to get some information from him through Samuel?
That JEHOVAH WOULD IN NO WAY APPROVE OF OR COOPERATE WITH SAUL’S ACTIONS is shown by his later statement through Isaiah: “And in case they should say to you people: ‘Apply to the spiritistic mediums or to those having a spirit of prediction who are chirping and making utterances in low tones,’ is it not to its God that any people should apply? Should there be application to dead persons in behalf of living persons? To the law and to the attestation!”—Isa 8:19, 20.
Therefore, when the account reads: “When the woman saw ‘Samuel’ she began crying out at the top of her voice,” it obviously recounts the event AS VIEWED BY THE MEDIUM, who was deceived by the spirit that impersonated Samuel. (1Sa 28:12)
As for Saul himself, the principle stated by the apostle Paul applied: “Just as they did not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting . . . Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them.”—Ro 1:28-32.
The Commentary on the Old Testament, by C. F. Keil and F. Delitzsch (1973, Vol. II, First Samuel, p. 265), refers to the Greek Septuagint at 1 Chronicles 10:13, which has added the words “and Samuel the prophet answered him.” (Bagster) The Commentary supports the view that is implied by these uninspired words in the Septuagint, but it adds: “Nevertheless the fathers, reformers, and earlier Christian theologians, with very few exceptions, assumed that there was not a real appearance of Samuel, but only an imaginary one. According to the explanation given by Ephraem Syrus, an apparent image of Samuel was presented to the eye of Saul through demoniacal arts. Luther and Calvin adopted the same view, and the earlier Protestant theologians followed them in regarding the apparition as nothing but a diabolical spectre, a phantasm, or diabolical spectre in the form of Samuel, and Samuel’s announcement as nothing but a diabolical revelation made by divine permission, in which truth is mixed with falsehood.”
So even some who believe that this really was Samuel recognize that “the fathers, reformers, and earlier Christian theologians, with very few exceptions,” believed that this was not really Samuel, but that this witch was using demonical arts.
In a footnote (First Samuel, pp. 265, 266), this Commentary says: “Thus Luther says . . . ‘The raising of Samuel by a soothsayer or witch, in 1 Sam. xxviii. 11, 12, was certainly merely a spectre of the devil; not only because the Scriptures state that it was effected by a woman who was full of devils (for who could believe that the -s of believers, who are in the hand of God, . . . were under the power of the devil, and of simple men?), but also because it was evidently in opposition to the command of God that Saul and the woman inquired of the dead. The Holy Ghost cannot do anything against this himself, nor can He help those who act in oppositi
on to it.’ Calvin also regards the apparition as only a spectre . . . : ‘It is certain,’ he says, ‘that it was not really Samuel, for God would never have allowed His prophets to be subjected to such diabolical conjuring. For here is a sorceress calling up the dead from the grave. Does any one imagine that God wished His prophet to be exposed to such ignominy; as if the devil had power over the bodies and souls of the saints which are in His keeping? The souls of the saints are said to rest . . . in God, waiting for their happy resurrection. Besides, are we to believe that Samuel took his cloak with him into the grave? For all these reasons, it appears evident that the apparition was nothing more than a spectre, and that the senses of the woman herself were so deceived, that she thought she saw Samuel, whereas it really was not he.’ The earlier orthodox theologians also disputed the reality of the appearance of the departed Samuel on just the same grounds.”Nearly 400 years after Saul’s reign, King Manasseh of Judah “did on a large scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him,” including the consulting of professional foretellers of events, who flourished under his rule. (2Ki 21:6; 2Ch 33:6) All of these had to be cleaned out of the land by Manasseh’s grandson, righteous King Josiah.—2Ki 23:24.
I think that’s pretty much it. But I’d like to add:
WAS IT PROPER FOR TO HIM TO INQUIRE OF THE DEAD? No, it was not. The Scriptures tell us: “SAUL DIED for his unfaithfulness . . . and ALSO FOR ASKING OF A SPIRIT MEDIUM to make inquiry.” (1 Chronicles 10:13)
Can we learn something from this? Yes. Saul died for asking a spirit medium to inquire of the dead. Why? Because in doing this, he disobeyed God’s explicit law:
DEUTERONOMY 18:9-12
“…You must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you . . . anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead. For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah.”
LEVITICUS 19:31
“Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them.”
Why is inquiry of the dead “detestable to Jehovah”? Before answering that question, we may ask:Is It Really Possible? What does the Bible say?
If anyone is to talk with the dead, the deceased must actually be alive. They must have immortal souls. Yet the Bible says: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7) Therefore, the person himself is a soul. He does not have an immortal soul that lives on after the death of the body. In fact, the Scriptures say: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4) Moreover, God’s Word says: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,” mankind’s common grave.—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.
Far from being more enlightened, then, the dead are unconscious. So it is impossible to speak with them. Acting in harmony with God’s law against inquiring of the dead therefore protects us from being deceived. Yet, messages from the spirit realm are possible, as King Saul’s experience shows.Is it really possible for a human to communicate with the “spirit” of a dead loved one?
Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [the grave], the place to which you are going.”
Ezek. 18:4, 20: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (So the soul is not something that survives the death of the body and with which living humans can thereafter communicate.)
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (When the spirit is said to ‘go out’ of the body, this is merely another way of saying that the life-force has ceased to be active. Thus, after a person dies, his spirit does not exist as an immaterial being that can think and carry out plans apart from the body. It is not something with which the living can communicate after a person’s death.)
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