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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2005,21:49) Hi BE,
Ps 139
” O Lord thou hast searched ME and known ME…..
Where can I GO from thy Spirit?…
heaven…
sheol…
dawn…
Thou didst form MY INMOST PARTS;thou did st weave me in my mother's womb. I give thanks to thee for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.Wonderful are Thy works and MY SOUL knows it very well. My FRAME was not hidden from thee, when I was made in secret”What is plain here is that the author talks of himself in two ways
As Body
And
as SoulThat does not make them one thing but simply means man can be spoken of in both ways
And both are true.
sea…
Nick you have a propensity for reading your imagination into the Bible instead of inquiring to find out what it actually intends to say.The “innermost parts” of that verse are the insides of his body.
Notice how the exact same word is translated here in the following verse (and in the same way in several other verses):
You shall take all the fat that covers the entrails and the lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and offer them up in smoke on the altar. (Exodus 29:13).
HI BE
You seem to have missed the entire point of the post.
Yes
“I” is spoken of as a physical BODY with a frame and innermost parts
but
“I” is also spoken of as a SOUL which can travel beyond those physical restraints that a body places on us.The author uses both the idioms in the same Psalm.
They, the BODY and SOUL, are both equally able to be called the “I”
It is not one or the other.
They are not mutually exclusive in defining MAN in the eyes of God but the lack is in our narrow mindedness[no offence].
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2005,01:05) HI BE
You seem to have missed the entire point of the post.
Yes
“I” is spoken of as a physical BODY with a frame and innermost parts
but
“I” is also spoken of as a SOUL which can travel beyond those physical restraints that a body places on us.The author uses both the idioms in the same Psalm.
They, the BODY and SOUL, are both equally able to be called the “I”
It is not one or the other.
They are not mutually exclusive in defining MAN in the eyes of God but the lack is in our narrow mindedness[no offence].
Well Nick the fact that a soul is an “I” and that a soul is a living body that is an “I” has been my point all along.When a spirit has a relationship with earth dust the dust becomes an “I” a “WHO”, a soul.
You have no evidence whatsoever that a soul is something “which can travel beyond those physical restraints that a body places on us.”
Take some dust. It is not an “I.” Dust is not inherently an “I”
Now add spirit to the dust. Now the dust becomes an “I”, a SOUL. The dust becomes a soul, an “I.”Take some dust. It is not a “WHO.” Dust is not inherently a “WHO.” Now add spirit to the dust. Now the dust becomes a “WHO”, a SOUL. The dust becomes a soul, a “WHO.”
Take some dust. It is not a “PERSON.” Dust is not inherently a “PERSON.” Now add spirit to the dust. Now the dust becomes a “PERSON”, a SOUL. The dust becomes a soul, a “PERSON.”
Hi EB,
God did not put just spirit in Man.
Gen 2.7
” Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground ,
and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE,
and man became a living being”It is presumptive to say the breath of God is spirit. scripture does not say that. It says he BREATHED into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIFE.
Where does it say that God's breath is spirit? It does not.
So the breath of God formed
spirit in man giving him life
and
soul giving him personality , mind , heart and will.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2005,02:52) Hi EB,
God did not put spirit in Man.
Gen 2.7
” Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground ,
and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE,
and man became a living being”It is presumptive to say the breath of God is spirit. scripture does not say that. It says he BREATHED into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIFE.
Where does it say that God's breath is spirit? It does not.
So the breath of God formed
spirit in man giving him life
and
soul giving him personality , mind , heart and will.
Oh boy.O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh. (Numbers 16:22; 27:16).
And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, for “In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, “For we are indeed his offspring.' (Acts 17:25-28).
Then the Lord said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3).
You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. (Psalm 104:29).
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26).
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Eccl 12:7).
For as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils (Job 27:3).
But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand. (Job 32:8).
Saying that the breath of God is not spirit from God because it the breath of life from God is like arguing that since a banana is a banana it is not therefore a fruit.
hI EB,
1 COR 5.6 F
” Therefore, being always of good courage ,and knowing that while we are AT HOME IN THE BODY we are absent from the Lord-for we walk by faith and not by sight-we are of good courage, I say, and PREFER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be with the Lord”This talks of our soul life. So to live here is to live IN our body. We are not our body but we live in our body or tent. When we die we separate from our body but will meet with the Lord in a new body when he returns.
Nick: hI EB,
1 COR 5.6 F
” Therefore, being always of good courage ,and knowing that while we are AT HOME IN THE BODY we are absent from the Lord-for we walk by faith and not by sight-we are of good courage, I say, and PREFER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY and to be with the Lord”BE: Before I illustrate your error here Nick can you tell me what 2 Corinthians 4:17- 5:10 is all about?
Nick: This talks of our soul life. So to live here is to live IN our body. We are not our body but we live in our body or tent. When we die we separate from our body but will meet with the Lord in a new body when he returns.
BE: It says no such thing. You are imagining things into the Bible again.
Notice WHEN we will be with the Lord Nick.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
Notice that 2 Corinthians 4:17-5:10 is about the resurrection of the body and standing before God and Christ in judgment. He is not even talking about what happens when we die.
For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– for we walk by faith, not by sight we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or evil.
At 5:8 Paul is saying that we would prefer being away from this condition of being in this mortal body and be at home with the Lord in our eternal and immortal resurrection body. Who wouldn't? He is saying this because he is consoling them in their suffering, a suffering which will not be on that day, on the day we will finally be at home with the Lord.
Same idea at Romans 8:17-25 and 1 Corinthians 15.
For our home is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of humiliation into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. (Php 3:20-21).
Maybe you would like to take a crack at Philippians 1:23.
Hi BE,
All I am saying is that now we live as soul in a tent body. We are men as bodies too, but also we are men who live in bodies. Do you agree?Phil 1.21
“For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live IN the flesh, this will mean fruitful labour for me;and I do not know which to choose.But I am hardpressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;yet to remain on IN the flesh is more necessary for your sake.”So the faithful servant hopes that his life IN his body is approaching it's end and that his work is complete as he does not enjoy the suffering he endures on earth and wants to arrive safely at his destination with the Lord …..in his new Body at the first resurrection.
Quote (Ben Elohim @ Feb. 23 2005,14:50) We are souls of flesh. We are souls that are flesh. We are a WHO of WHAT, persons of flesh, souls of flesh. A soul is not a thing in addition to a body. It is a body of dust that is a WHO. Dust that has no spirit is not a who, not a soul. A rock is not a who and so is not a soul.
Hi BenE,If our soul is the combination of flesh and Spirit/spirit, then do we get another soul when our bodies cease to be flesh, or when the spirit inhabits a non-fleshly body.
Also John saw the souls of those who were slain, under the alter of God. I assume that their bodies were in the ground at this point. Please explain.
Also God is a who, does he need a body to be a who?
thx
To Hi BenE,
1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.If we relegate the soul to mean a combination of both spirit and body, then that hypothesis seems to infer that we become a new soul when we get a new body or a new spirit.
I would have thought that soul is our identity, it is who we are and if God destroys my body, I am still me. If God fills me anew with his Spirit each day, I am still me too. So how can I be me if I am born again and then I die and receive a new body. For surely both my body and spirit are new.
Which part is me?
Quote (Ben Elohim @ Feb. 23 2005,03:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2005,02:52) Hi EB,
God did not put spirit in Man.
Gen 2.7
” Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground ,
and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILS THE BREATH OF LIFE,
and man became a living being”It is presumptive to say the breath of God is spirit. scripture does not say that. It says he BREATHED into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIFE.
Where does it say that God's breath is spirit? It does not.
So the breath of God formed
spirit in man giving him life
and
soul giving him personality , mind , heart and will.
Oh boy.O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh. (Numbers 16:22; 27:16).
And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, for “In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, “For we are indeed his offspring.' (Acts 17:25-28).
Then the Lord said, “My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for he is flesh, but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3).
You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. (Psalm 104:29).
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:26).
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Eccl 12:7).
For as long as my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils (Job 27:3).
But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand. (Job 32:8).
Saying that the breath of God is not spirit from God because it the breath of life from God is like arguing that since a banana is a banana it is not therefore a fruit.
Hi BE, Two of those scriptures may relate
Jb 27.2
” As God lives , who has taken away my right,and the Almighty, who has embittered my SOUL, for as long As LIFE IS IN ME, and the BREATH OF GOD IS IN MY NOSTRILS, my lips will not speak unjustly”Jb 32.5
“I am young in years and you are old;therefore I was shy and afraid to tell you what I think. I thought age should speak, and increased years should teach wisdom but IT IS A SPIRIT IN MAN AND THE BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY GIVES THEM UNDERSTANDING”Neither say that the breath of God produces only THE SPIRIT OF MAN. The first speaks of bitterness in his soul as well as the life in the body. Soul and Spirit.
The second suggests that understanding, a soul attribute also come from the breath of God. Soul and Spirit.
Heb 4. 12
” For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword and piercing as far as THE DIVISION OF SOUL AND SPIRIT”
I seem to have done the post wrong but here goes. It will be added on your post BEGenesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (AV)
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (NKJV)
“And YHWH formed man of the dust of the ground”
When he formed man from the dust he formed everything about him. How his blood would flow around his body from his heart. That he would be able to walk, see, taste and experience things. That he would need food for sustenance and need to sleep. That he would have a brain to retain instruction, make decisions and hold memories of his life. That he would have his own personality, etc. etc. etc. This is the man that was formed. But this man was lifeless (just like a computer without power, or a car without petrol).
“and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being/soul.”
Then YHWH breathed life into this man and he became a living being and all the parts and functions that had been created from the dust were now alive. He could now think, move, have memories and emotion, make decisions, be hungry or tired etc. etc. All the things that YHWH had created this man to do, started to function. The Man that YHWH formed was not alive until he breathed into him the breath of life (like plugging in your computer into power, or putting petrol in your car).
When he dies, the breath of life that animated him returns to YHWH who gave it to him. All that he has learned, experienced etc etc remains with the man (human being) which is placed in the grave and decays to become dust, the dust from which he was taken.
At the resurrection YHWH will restore the man from the dust and once again breathe life into him. Everything that he had learned, done or experienced previously was retained in the dust. But what was once mortal will now be immortal. Except for this difference, it will be as if the man had never died. Whilst immortality prepares us for everlasting life – to receive it we must (if not part of the first resurrection) pass judgement.
Hi RR,
So your view of man as created from dust includes personality, intelligence, emotion and will.
It is not mine.
Dust does not have those characteristics.
Obviously every atomic particle that makes our body can be derived from the ground but only evolutionists would agree that soul nature can be.
There are two definitions of man in Gen 2-3 in my view as reinforced by Ps 139.
Man is dust=body
Man is living soul=spirit [gives life] to soul.They are not equivalent but parallel.
Sun =light
Sun =heat
Does not mean heat = light.Hi Nick and BE,
Can ignorance on this discussion lead one into false doctrine and therefore astray?
Isn't it sufficient to know that the soul that sins shall die and that we are those souls. Also that Jesus came to save us so that we can be as he is, incorruptible, holy and able to dwell in the presence of God?Hi Cubes,
Yes. But we serving the Master and painfully distilling the essence of truth.
This is the Master who said
” Every plant my Father did not plant must be pulled out”
and
“Let the dead bury the dead”Many who see through the trinity falsehood seem to then see another trinity in BODY |SOUL|SPIRIT and try to reduce it to two, body\soul and spirit. Often they find greek or other influence and try to cleanse the word and finish up denying it.
It takes very little yeast to leaven bread but we search for the unleavened. I am sure trinity ideas started from intellectual musings but once they became doctrine then bad things happened. The Father is insulted and the Son denied.
Talking about sin we know that we do sin as otherwise we would have no need for the Advocate before the Father[1Jn1] and daily asking for forgiveness from the Father.But the situation is not the same for us as the Jews as we are of the household of the King. We are not under the OT Law but the Law of Christ.
PS EB
When I said 'God did not put spirit in man' I missed a word and may have confused you. Sorry. God did put spirit in man when he breathed into him but not JUST spirit. He breathed SOUL into man too.
I have corrected the postQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2005,19:32) Hi Cubes,
Yes. But we serving the Master and painfully distilling the essence of truth.
This is the Master who said
” Every plant my Father did not plant must be pulled out”
and
“Let the dead bury the dead”Many who see through the trinity falsehood seem to then see another trinity in BODY |SOUL|SPIRIT and try to reduce it to two, body\soul and spirit. Often they find greek or other influence and try to cleanse the word and finish up denying it.
It takes very little yeast to leaven bread but we search for the unleavened. I am sure trinity ideas started from intellectual musings but once they became doctrine then bad things happened. The Father is insulted and the Son denied.
Talking about sin we know that we do sin as otherwise we would have no need for the Advocate before the Father[1Jn1] and daily asking for forgiveness from the Father.But the situation is not the same for us as the Jews as we are of the household of the King. We are not under the OT Law but the Law of Christ.
Hi Nick, I haven't given much thought to the physiology of Body/Soul/Spirit so I am open to being persuaded by scripture.I suppose this is my understanding at this time:
Body = tent that houses who we are. This ages or becomes warped by disease and the elements. Sometimes this is in a comalike state, but there is often someone inside who hears when we speak, and receives love.
That someone I think is the unique individual. That someone can be at peace, become depressed or elated regardless of the state of the body. Perhaps that someone is that person that dreams and has imaginations and is intangible. That someone can be open to commune with God or with demons
That someone is best characterized by conscience.Perhaps it is this that becomes born again and so renewed, enabling us to commune spirit to holy spirit. It is software, and is interfaced with the hardware of the body. It keeps on running long after the hardware is deteriorated but can be rendered somewhat ineffective as a result. It can become very corrupted even if the hardware seems in good shape.
It is this that God recognizes as his or not his (though he knows our bodies too of course).
Good stuff cubes,
We know that in baptism in the name of Jesus our “self” or soul potentially dies and is buried with him. We live so our spirit which gives us life is unchanged. Our body too lives so that only leaves the soul.Rom 6.2f
” Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus have been baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death , so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father ,so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united to him in the likeness to his death ,certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection;knowing this that OUR OLD SELF was crucified with him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin ;for he who has died is freed from sin”We know that the body [the outer man] lives on but it is guaranteed to be replaced when it does expire.
The potential death is of the self[the inner man or soul]. We can let it live and our house of straw or wood will be burned. We must deny our'selves' ,take up our cross daily and follow Jesus. We must decrease and he must increase. Jesus must be being born into our body, us being transformed by the renewing of our heart and mind and all acquiring the valuable aspects of the Character of Jesus through prayer and suffering.
We build on rock, laying the only foundation stone and adding other valuable stones as we go along shedding our useless natural 'self'. So we grow to the full maturity in Christ.
We are given The Spirit as a downpayment on the full salvation with resurrection into the new body when he returns.
Now those who deny the 'separate' soul will not be able to accept what is written here or the word it is based on as they say there is no 'separate' soul that can die.
Hi BE,
Psalm 139
My view is:
V 1-12 speaks of soul aspects of man. Thought is not an ability of the body. Neither is travel to heaven, sheol, the dawn or the depths of the sea. Such things such as the travel there and the ability to stay there are beyond the capacity of our natural body.
v 13-14 speaks of the body of man, the outer man. Physical only, flesh and skeleton.
v15 to 24 again returns to discussion of the inner man, the soul.And what is it that understands the process?
Is it the body?No ,the soul
V 14 “….and my SOUL knows it very well”
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