What is a sodomite

Participant

J42

Quote

it was originally in God, then it comes out and still performs, does it's job (creates), it's preserved alive, , it doesn't die, then God turns this into something else when implanted in a woman, and changes it into flesh,then returns to it's natural state, spirit, but has a name now, and a history,

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

YOU MEAN THIS WAS NOT HISTORY ?

Pr 8:30 Then I (CHRIST)was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

December 7, 2013 at 2:52 pm#363325

journey42

Participant

terraricca,Dec. wrote:

J42

Quote

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth (?),
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Quote

YOU MEAN THIS WAS NOT HISTORY ?

Pr 8:30 Then I (CHRIST)was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Pierre,

I was talking about “THE WORD” in the previous post, you have given scriptures speaking about WISDOM.
That whole chapter appears to be speaking about “wisdom.”

Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
Proverbs 8:5 Oh ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

Proverbs 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Proverbs 8:9 They are plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Proverbs 8:10 Receive my instruction, and not silver, and knowledge rather than choice gold.
Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and..all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Proverbs 8:12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Proverbs 8:14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom...I am understanding; I have strength.
Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:19…My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (wisdom)

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. (I wisdom existed even before creation)
Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world,
Proverbs 8:27 when he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his comandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him. (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. (wisdom)
Proverbs 8:32 Now therefore hearken unto me, oh ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways (have wisdom)
Proverbs 8:33 Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not. (have wisdom)

December 7, 2013 at 5:41 pm#363340

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 05 2013,19:52)

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE WORD WAS GOD.

LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND ONLY SAW GOD.
*NO WORD*, NO NOTHING CREATED,JUST THE ONE GOD,AND GOD ALONE.
JOHN WOULD HAVE SAID IN HIS MIND:I ONLY SEE GOD.
AND NOTHING ELSE.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME,AND **SAW THE WORD** SPEAKING THINGS INTO EXISTENCE:

Ah, but now let's put the order back the way John wrote it, okay?

With the words in the proper order, your scenario goes like this: LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND SAW THE WORD WITH GOD.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME, SAW ONLY GOD.

See? If you keep the words in order, then even if you read a “before/after” scenario into the words, the before part is the Word WITH God, and the after part is God by Himself.

So if you try your scenario with the words in the order John wrote them, you end up with there first being the Word AND God together, and then later there being only God alone – like God swallowed up the Word and it was gone or something.

So let me outline where you are with your scenario:

1. First, you must assume a before/after situation from the word “AND”……. which isn't impossible.

2. Assuming the before/after scenario, you must REVERSE the order of the events separated by the word “AND”……… which DOES seem at least odd, if not impossible. For example, one wouldn't say, Last night, I passed out and got drunk and went out. They would instead list the before/after events IN THE ORDER THEY OCCURRED, such as, Last night, I went out and got drunk and passed out. You are asking us to believe that John wrote the before/after events out of order. Why would anyone do such a thing?

3. Even if we were to believe the assumed before/after scenario, and also for some reason believed that John would write the “after part” first, and the “before part” last, you are still asking us to believe that something that used to be God Himself changed into a separate entity who was no longer God Himself.

December 7, 2013 at 5:52 pm#363341

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2013,23:24)

J42

Quote

YOU MEAN THIS WAS NOT HISTORY ?

Pr 8:30 Then I (CHRIST)was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Quote

Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,

kjv:
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths,
***I was brought forth***;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.

THIS IS WHAT THE KJV SAYS. BROUGHT FORTH,*NOT* BIRTH,AS IN YOUR BIBLE. NO CREATURES ARE BORN IN HEAVEN.
ANGELS ARE NOT BORN.WISDOM WAS NOT BORN.

Without God there can be no creation.
Without the Word there can be no creation.
Without wisdom there can be no creation. All things are
made with all wisdom.
Without Jesus there can be no knowledge.(spiritual).
Without Jesus there can be no light in the world.(spiritual).

The Word was brought forth,and in Him was wisdom.
The Word was brought forth,and in Him the Holy Spirit.
All these are in God.God is a spirit.

God could have said:I brought forth my Word,but that would make it too easy to understand. The whole idea is to seek,and decern.

wakeup.

December 7, 2013 at 6:02 pm#363342

kerwin

Participant

Journey,

Does not Jehovah impart his wisdom by the very word the comes out of his mouth?

December 7, 2013 at 6:17 pm#363344

Blocked

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 06 2013,22:06)

Hi Mike,

Let's put all translations aside for the moment. This is only clogging our thinking process.

I disagree, journey. IGNORING the facts of the matter in favor of siding with one possible translation – as if it is the ONLY possible translation – is what “clogs the thinking process”. It makes us blind men following blind guides. You already know from experience that these guides (the newer English Bible translators) are often blind, right? Many are blinded by their own biases, right? Now you just need to apply that same reasoning to the men who translated the KJV – because they were no different than the men who translated the newer English Bibles – despite what your heart wants to believe.

And if you can bring yourself to acknowledge that ALL MEN are fallible, and can therefore be blind guides – whether on purpose or on accident – you will embrace the need to search out the various meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words yourself, compare the different ways different translators have rendered those words, and decide for yourself which is the correct translation.

But this takes a lot of diligence and hard study. Some people don't think knowing the truth of God's written word is worth that much effort. I am not one of those people.

So I want you to UNDERSTAND the facts of John 1:1 – before just blowing them off because they are “clogging your thinking process”.

We can easily assume part b is rendered accurately as, and the Word was with God – because John actually included the definite article “THE” before the word “god”. So he actually wrote, and the logos was with the god. And by “the god”, we can assume he was talking about God Almighty. Just like when it was written that “the devil” led Jesus into the wilderness, we can assume that Satan was meant. If the writer only wrote “devil” – without the definite article “the”, then we would have to guess as to whether Satan led Jesus out to the wilderness, or he was led out by any old “devil/demon”.

Are you with me so far? YES or NO?

(I will happily address the points and scriptures you listed as this discussion goes along, but first I want to you KNOW what's really going on – so you can make an INFORMED decision on the matter.)

December 7, 2013 at 6:52 pm#363346

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2013,03:41)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 05 2013,19:52)

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE WORD WAS GOD.

LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND ONLY SAW GOD.
*NO WORD*, NO NOTHING CREATED,JUST THE ONE GOD,AND GOD ALONE.
JOHN WOULD HAVE SAID IN HIS MIND:I ONLY SEE GOD.
AND NOTHING ELSE.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME,AND **SAW THE WORD** SPEAKING THINGS INTO EXISTENCE:

Ah, but now let's put the order back the way John wrote it, okay?

With the words in the proper order, your scenario goes like this: LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND SAW THE WORD WITH GOD.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME, SAW ONLY GOD.

See? If you keep the words in order, then even if you read a “before/after” scenario into the words, the before part is the Word WITH God, and the after part is God by Himself.

So let me outline where you are with your scenario:

1. First, you must assume a before/after situation from the word “AND”……. which isn't impossible.

MikeB.

When you decided to make a table and some chairs.
what you do is: open your toolbox; bring out your tools
start working **untill its done**;and then put your tools back into your toolbox.

Well; God has not finished with his work.
when he is finished;Jesus will be in subjection to God.
And God will be all in all.

John's main aim was to tell us about Jesus; Was the word of God. And then he *carried on* by saying: hey,by the way; the Word was also God.
But here is the mystery: John was speaking of the past;
*before* creation. Before the biginning.

1. Before creation;before the beginning.There was only God.

2. In the beginning.God's Word creating.

3.The Word made flesh.Jesus born.

4.The word back with God.
given power to rule his own kingdom for 1000yrs; after
babylon is no more.We will be with Him:His produce,
and together producing multitudes during the 1000yrs.

5.After the 1000yrs he will be back unto subjection to God.

6.God all in all. God is a Spirit;all will be bound by His Spirit.
at certain times God will have a gathering,and he will speak to all his children.(spirit children,no more need for the flesh).

wakeup.

December 7, 2013 at 6:55 pm#363347

Blocked

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 06 2013,22:19)

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (In the beginning)

So, this is Jesus speaking. He telling us he was there in the beginning of creation. So Jesus was THAT WORD, not the man Jesus yet, but GOD'S WORD.

I agree that John 17:5, along with many other scriptures, makes it abundantly clear that Jesus was there at the beginning of the creation. And I agree that Jesus was there as “the Word of God”.

But Jesus was the Word of God back then, and while he was on earth, and remains the Word of God to this very day. That title doesn't mean Jesus was an actual spoken word or words from God's mouth, journey. The title “Word of God” simply means Jesus is, and has always been, God's main SPOKESMAN. It has nothing at all to do with him having started out as a spoken word.

The Word of God became flesh, journey. That doesn't mean a spoken word from God turned into the human being Jesus Christ. It means that the same spirit being we knew on earth as Jesus was changed from a spirit being in heaven to a flesh being who dwelled on earth. He was still the same “Word of God” before he became flesh, and after he became flesh. Understand? He was God's main spokesman before he became flesh, and after he became flesh. And he remains that same person, God's spokesman (The Word of God) to this very day.

Now, I understand why you and Wakeup have it in your mind that Jesus started off as the literal words of God, and then came to be a different being beside God. It is because you are trying desperately to make sense of that flawed and the Word was God translation of John 1:1c. But if you read the post I just made to Wakeup (two posts before this one), and continue with the discussion in the post I just made to you (one post before this one), I believe you may come to a different, and better, understanding.

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 06 2013,22:19)

Is Jesus God now?, no.
Is the Word God?
Well it used to be before it was made flesh because God said he alone formed the heaven and the earth…..

Thank you for coming out and saying it, journey. I've been trying for months to get Wakeup to come right out and say what he is preaching: That the Word USED TO BE God, but then became “NOT God”. But I ask you, does God ever change? What do the scriptures say about that?

Also, I will post this again, in case you haven't seen it the thousand other times I've posted it: He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another. – Tertullian

Now it doesn't matter who Tertullian is, or where he came from. What matters is the UNDENIABLE LOGIC of those words he wrote.

For example, God, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF created YOU. But God did that THROUGH your parents, your grandparents, Noah, Adam and Eve. The fact that God chose to create you THROUGH these other people doesn't mean that those other people “USED TO BE” God Himself, right? So the fact that God, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF, created all things in heaven and earth THROUGH His Word Jesus Christ doesn't mean that the Word “USED TO BE” God Himself, right?

And in neither case does the fact that God created things THROUGH other entities prohibit the fact that God created those things ALONE, AND BY HIMSELF.

Do you understand these things? Do you understand that you are seeing a contradiction between “I alone created” and “all things were created THROUGH the Word” – when there really isn't one?

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 06 2013,22:19)

You came out of your father. Your fathers seed that made you was inside him orginally, agree?
then it came out and you were made.

That analogy only works if it can be said that I, Mike Boll, USED TO BE my Father before I came out of him. Well? Is that the case?

journey, I enjoy my discussions with you on this site more than anyone else. I like your “demeanor”, and the way you are open to new knowledge, instead of just closing the door on me. I hope you continue on with this discussion – which is why I called you by name into it in the first place.

December 7, 2013 at 7:06 pm#363348

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,11:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2013,03:41)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 05 2013,19:52)

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE WORD WAS GOD.

LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND ONLY SAW GOD.
*NO WORD*, NO NOTHING CREATED,JUST THE ONE GOD,AND GOD ALONE.
JOHN WOULD HAVE SAID IN HIS MIND:I ONLY SEE GOD.
AND NOTHING ELSE.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME,AND **SAW THE WORD** SPEAKING THINGS INTO EXISTENCE:

Ah, but now let's put the order back the way John wrote it, okay?

With the words in the proper order, your scenario goes like this: LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND SAW THE WORD WITH GOD.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME, SAW ONLY GOD.

See? If you keep the words in order, then even if you read a “before/after” scenario into the words, the before part is the Word WITH God, and the after part is God by Himself.

So let me outline where you are with your scenario:

1. First, you must assume a before/after situation from the word “AND”……. which isn't impossible.

John's main aim was to tell us about Jesus; Was the word of God. And then he *carried on* by saying: hey,by the way; the Word was also God.

I reject that as a serious response to the points I painstakingly laid out for you in the above quote box……. especially point #3.

In the end, you are asking us to believe that God Almighty Himself became “NOT God Almighty”. Or at least a part of God Almighty became a different living entity who was no longer God Almighty.

But scripture says that God doesn't change. Do you believe those scriptures or not?

December 7, 2013 at 8:19 pm#363360

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2013,05:06)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,11:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2013,03:41)

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 05 2013,19:52)

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN THE WORD WAS GOD.

LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND ONLY SAW GOD.
*NO WORD*, NO NOTHING CREATED,JUST THE ONE GOD,AND GOD ALONE.
JOHN WOULD HAVE SAID IN HIS MIND:I ONLY SEE GOD.
AND NOTHING ELSE.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME,AND **SAW THE WORD** SPEAKING THINGS INTO EXISTENCE:

Ah, but now let's put the order back the way John wrote it, okay?

With the words in the proper order, your scenario goes like this: LETS SAY JOHN IS LOOKING UP,AND SAW THE WORD WITH GOD.

THEN HE LOOKS UP AGAIN LATER IN TIME, SAW ONLY GOD.

See? If you keep the words in order, then even if you read a “before/after” scenario into the words, the before part is the Word WITH God, and the after part is God by Himself.

So let me outline where you are with your scenario:

1. First, you must assume a before/after situation from the word “AND”……. which isn't impossible.

John's main aim was to tell us about Jesus; Was the word of God. And then he *carried on* by saying: hey,by the way; the Word was also God.

I reject that as a serious response to the points I painstakingly laid out for you in the above quote box……. especially point #3.

In the end, you are asking us to believe that God Almighty Himself became “NOT God Almighty”. Or at least a part of God Almighty became a different living entity who was no longer God Almighty.

But scripture says that God doesn't change. Do you believe those scriptures or not?

MikeB.

Do you believe that jesus was a *LIVING PERSON* amongst his brethren?

If you do believe;then why can you not believe that HE WAS
a living being with a form with God?
Why can you not believe that God can do that?
God is one: and all comes from him,and all creation is His works. His Word is the one that is alive on the job.

Did the Word of God had glory with God,in the beginning?
Do you believe this? Or is that just another lie?
Did God had glory with the breath of his mouth?
Did Jesus not say it himself that he **proceeded out of God**?
Why is it that you can not understand that simple statement.
Instead going through all those informations trying to picture Jesus as a liar?

Why would you change John's words recorded: into some other words, because some man say so.
He said the Word was God,and you are saying no; he was
*A god*,because it makes more sense to men's commonsense.

What is the word mystery mean?
What authority and proof have you, or any man, to make John look like a stupid fool that does not know what he is talking about.

If you keep on believing in your doctrine,you would face many scriptural contradictions.And it's worth nothing.

Need to stop believing in men's words rather than God's words. Men's words will always contradict itself,because men
is full of contradictions. Men's created laws are also full of contradictions.Satan is the God of this world,and he is in charge of ungodly men.Greedy self serving men don't have the Holy spirit. Babylon means confusion. You can not get
any knowledge learning of confusion.

wakeup.

December 8, 2013 at 5:18 am#363379

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 08 2013,04:17)

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 06 2013,22:06)

Hi Mike,

Let's put all translations aside for the moment. This is only clogging our thinking process.

But this takes a lot of diligence and hard study. Some people don't think knowing the truth of God's written word is worth that much effort. I am not one of those people.

So I want you to UNDERSTAND the facts of John 1:1 – before just blowing them off because they are “clogging your thinking process”.

Are you with me so far? YES or NO?

Mike b.

Quote

Not so:
Those men were chosen by God to do a job.
They were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Quote

But this takes a lot of diligence and hard study. Some people don't think knowing the truth of God's written word is worth that much effort. I am not one of those people.

So I want you to UNDERSTAND the facts of John 1:1 – before just blowing them off because they are “clogging your thinking process”.

Not so:
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and **lowly in heart**: **and ye shall find rest unto your souls**.

Matthew 11:30 **For my yoke is easy**, and **my burden is light**.

All that effort of digging for gold where there is no gold
is a waste of time and effort.
There is no spiritual gold to be found in Babylon.
You only get confusion; plenty of it.

Jesus was led to the wilderness by the Holy Spirit of his father to fast.

wakeup.

December 8, 2013 at 7:13 am#363390

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,22:52)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 07 2013,23:24)

J42

Quote

YOU MEAN THIS WAS NOT HISTORY ?

Pr 8:30 Then I (CHRIST)was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Quote

Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,

kjv:
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths,
***I was brought forth***;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.

THIS IS WHAT THE KJV SAYS. BROUGHT FORTH,*NOT* BIRTH,AS IN YOUR BIBLE. NO CREATURES ARE BORN IN HEAVEN.
ANGELS ARE NOT BORN.WISDOM WAS NOT BORN.

The Word was brought forth,and in Him was wisdom.
The Word was brought forth,and in Him the Holy Spirit.
All these are in God.God is a spirit.

God could have said:I brought forth my Word,but that would make it too easy to understand. The whole idea is to seek,and decern.

wakeup.

i could shown COLSSIANS 1;15;21

but i figure you would have enough wisdom to understand it but i guess i was wrong on it, i am sorry,

December 8, 2013 at 9:22 am#363396

Participant

All is fine,and you have a nice day old boy.
No one is perfect.

wakeup.

December 8, 2013 at 9:47 am#363400

Participant

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 08 2013,14:22)

All is fine,and you have a nice day old boy.
No one is perfect.

wakeup.

Thanks,

December 8, 2013 at 1:55 pm#363410

journey42

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 08 2013,04:02)

Journey,

Does not Jehovah impart his wisdom by the very word the comes out of his mouth?

Kerwin,

Yes he does. There is wisdom in his Word.

December 8, 2013 at 2:15 pm#363411

journey42

Participant

journey42,Dec. wrote:

Quote

Mike,

Let's put all translations aside for the moment. This is only clogging our thinking process.

mikeboll64,Dec. wrote:

Quote

Mike, I don't think this is a stupid question, and it's got nothing to do with my bible versus your bible. It's a general question.

Can you please address this? Were there any other gods existing when God started creating?

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were.. the heavens made…; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

December 8, 2013 at 3:46 pm#363414

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,13:19)

Do you believe that jesus was a *LIVING PERSON* amongst his brethren?

Yes.

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,13:19)

If you do believe;then why can you not believe that HE WAS a living being with a form with God?

I do believe that. When did I ever say I didn't? I believe Jesus was the very first being God ever created, and therefore the very first being with a form who was ever with God.

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,13:19)

Did the Word of God had glory with God,in the beginning?

I believe JESUS had glory with God in the beginning – because JESUS is the person who said he did. And one of Jesus' many titles is “The Word of God” – since he has always been God's main spokesman. So yes, Jesus/The Word had glory with God in the beginning.

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,13:19)

Did Jesus not say it himself that he **proceeded out of God**?
Why is it that you can not understand that simple statement.

I understand that Jesus came out from God – just as all things did. Jesus was the first to come out from God. Your own words said, “God is one: and ALL comes from him”, right?

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,13:19)

Instead going through all those informations trying to picture Jesus as a liar?

I have just addressed a list of beliefs you attributed to me – which aren't my beliefs at all. YOU tell me that I don't believe this or that, and then tell me I'm making Jesus out to be a liar………. when the whole time I've never SAID I don't believe this or that.

It seems that most of the things you listed – the things you say I DON'T believe – are really things that I DO believe.

Our difference lies in the fact that you think Jesus USED TO BE God Almighty Himself, and then became a different living entity who was no longer God Almighty Himself. And NO, I DON'T believe that for one second.

Quote

Why would you change John's words recorded: into some other words, because some man say so.

You really need to gain more knowledge about the FACTS of the matter, Wakeup. You are making yourself look silly here.

1. We English speakers add the indefinite article “a” into the scriptures over 7000 times – because the Hebrew and Greek languages didn't use an indefinite article – and we do.

For example:

John 8:44 King James Version
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Do you see where the KJV scholars ADDED the word “a” in both of those parts I supersized? Now, listen carefully, and we'll see if there is ANY understanding in you at all:

The words Jesus actually spoke were, “He was murderer” and “he is liar”. Jesus didn't say “a murderer” and “a liar” – because there is no indefinite article in the Greek or Hebrew languages.

So when translating those words from Jesus into ENGLISH, we have to make one of two choices. We either have to ADD the indefinite article “a” – and render those lines as “he was a murderer” and “he was a liar”……… OR……….. we have to ADD the definite article “the” – and render those lines as “he was the Murderer” and “he was the Liar”.

Adding the indefinite article gives the meaning that is in all English Bibles – that Satan was a murderer and a liar from the beginning.

Adding the definite article would give the meaning that Satan had the official title of “The Murderer” and “The Liar” from the beginning. Sort of like the difference between “John was a president” and “John was the President”. See how adding the definite article calls for us to capitalize the word following it – because that article makes the following word an official title that needs capitalization.

So, believing that Satan wasn't officially titled “THE Murderer” and “THE Liar” from the beginning, we CHOOSE to add the INDEFINITE article instead of the DEFINITE one.

(It's important to know that the Hebrew and Greek languages DID use a definite article. Which means that if Jesus wanted to say Satan was “THE Murderer” and “THE Liar” – his language allowed for him to do so all by himself……… WITHOUT us ADDING that definite article into his words for him. Do you understand this?)

That means that anytime we add an INDEFINITE article (over 7000 times in scripture), we HAVE TO add it so the words work in our English language. But anytime we add the DEFINITE article, it is purely by CHOICE – because the writer of the scripture COULD HAVE added it into their statement if they wanted to.

And that brings us to John 1:1. In part b, John specifically chose to include the definite article, thereby writing, “and the logos was with THE god”. Do you understand that? John CHOSE to write “THE god” in part b.

And in part c, John COULD HAVE chosen to include the definite article, making it say, “and the logos was THE god”. BUT HE DIDN'T!

So now in English, we have two choices:

1. Add the indefinite article – which John had no choice to add because his language didn't use an indefinite article.

2. Add the definite article – thereby OVERRULING the choice John specifically made when he chose NOT TO use a definite article in part c.

Do you understand this, Wakeup? Or is all of this over your head?

Let me say it once again for you, so maybe it will begin to sink in:

In part b, John wanted to say the Word was with Jehovah, so he specifically used the definite article, and said, “the logos was with THE god”.

But in part c, if John had wanted to say the Word WAS Jehovah, he would have used the definite article again and wrote, “and the logos was THE god”.

BUT JOHN DIDN'T WRITE THAT THE LOGOS WAS THE GOD, WAKEUP! Understand? He COULD HAVE – if he WANTED to. But he DIDN'T.

So which one is more of an “intrusion” on his words:
1. Adding the INDEFINITE article, like we do over 7000 times in scripture because the languages they were written in didn't have an indefinite article, and therefore they had no CHOICE to include one if they wanted to?

2. Or adding the DEFINITE article when the original languages of the scriptures DID have definite articles, and the writers COULD HAVE included one if they WANTED to?

Obviously, adding words that the original writer COULD HAVE used if he wanted to, but chose NOT TO, is the real intrusion into the scriptures. And THAT, my friend, is what the scholars who came up with “and the Word was God” have done. They have OVERRULED John's own choice NOT TO add that definite article, and took it upon themselves to CHANGE his words and meaning by ADDING something he COULD HAVE added on his own – if he had wanted to.

So before you charge ME with “changing John's words”, you should really know the FACTS of the matter.

Look at the CONFUSION the ADDITION of that definite article in John 1:1c has caused over the years. Did you know that the majority of Trinitarians are Trinitarians simply because they believe if John wrote “the Word was God” – who are they to argue against it. So the blind Trinitarians believe in an unscriptural Godhead of three simply because English translators CHOSE to ADD a definite article into 1:1c – when John COULD HAVE written it with a definite article in the first place………. IF that was what he wanted to teach.

And look at your nonsensical doctrine. You believe Jesus Christ used to actually BE God Almighty Himself, but then changed from being “God” to being “not God”. And all because Trinitarian translators CHOSE to ADD a definite article into 1:1c – in a place where John COULD HAVE put a definite article, but specifically chose NOT TO.

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,13:19)

If you keep on believing in your doctrine,you would face many scriptural contradictions.And it's worth nothing.

I would like you to show me just ONE of those contradictions. My belief is that Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning – before all things were made through him.

Now, show me ONE single scriptural contradiction to my belief.

December 8, 2013 at 3:50 pm#363415

Blocked

Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 07 2013,22:18)

Not so:
Those men were chosen by God to do a job.

Wakeup,

I'm about done with you on this discussion. Show me your PROOF that the men who translated the KJV were specifically “chosen by God to do a job”.

If you cannot, then stop claiming things you can't prove, okay?

December 8, 2013 at 3:51 pm#363416

Blocked

Quote (journey42 @ Dec. 08 2013,07:15)

Mike, I don't think this is a stupid question, and it's got nothing to do with my bible versus your bible. It's a general question.

Can you please address this? Were there any other gods existing when God started creating?

I never said it was a stupid question, journey.

In fact, I can address it simply using YOUR understanding of the Word who “USED TO BE” God, coming out and being WITH God before all things were created.

Well? Was this “Word” still God Almighty Himself when God started creating all things? Or was this “Word” a DIFFERENT being who was WITH God when God started creating all things?

December 8, 2013 at 6:28 pm#363431