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T8,
If Mike is insisting begotten means the created of God then
Mike’s idea seems to be echoed in Luke 3:38 where Adam is said by a more literal word for word translation to be “the of God” in relation to Seth being “the of Adam”.
Of course first begotten can symbolize other things besides first created but first created is what fits Mike’s doctrine. He does not have enough evidence to use it as a root proof passage but he has to open his eyes to that before any conversation can progress.
A precedent in scripture is when David is called the first begotten of the earth and yet he is not the first created. Jesus is higher that his ancestor.
Mike,
As for quoting other people’s posts, I’ll let you know how I do it. First, I copy the words from their original post that I would like to respond to. Then I hit “Reply” at the top of their post. Then I manually type: (quote=Kerwin)PASTE THEIR WORDS HERE(/quote)
Note that all four of the parenthesis I used in that example above are really supposed to be brackets, and not parenthesis. If I had used brackets for the example, the words “PASTE THEIR WORDS HERE” would have ended up in a quote box, and you wouldn’t have been able to see how I did it.
You guys can do the same thing with the b-quote button at the top of your response. Hit the b-quote, paste their words, hit the b-quote a second time.
Thank you for the heads up.
Colter,
t8, your interpretation of the scriptures is just one of many other completely conflicting interpretations even on this tiny forum. Others who also believe in God and God the Son, don’t see you as having a monopoly on the truth. Long before the scripture was written men and women had faith in a personal God.
Take care
1) God has a monopoly of the truth and he shares it with those that seek him and his righteousness so each of us would be wise to take care and watch our life and our doctrine.
2) T8 rebuked you for going off the topic of the forum, much less the thread. He was of the opinion your words were skeptical of Scripture. Believers place is for those that believe that Scripture is the word of God or at the least that godly men wrote them as they were inspired by God.
Mike wrote:Really Ed? 🙂 (1)Who or what do YOU think the Word in John 1:3 is? Whatever your answer, (2)is it true that God Himself came into existence THROUGH the Word of God? No.
(3)And is it true that the Word came into existence THROUGH itself? No.
(4)So no matter who or what you think the Word is, my point stands exactly how I said it. All things, EXCEPT FOR GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD, came into existence through the Word. Not one thing, EXCEPT FOR GOD AND THE WORD OF GOD, came into being without the Word of God.
Hi Mike,
1) God’s HolySpirit
2) No3) also No
4) But you say except God too, which is my point which you are not addressing. that makes TWO EXCEPTIONS.But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor 8:6)This verse means by means of Jesus’ crucifixion, NOT BY JESUS HAND – as you are clearly assuming.
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike wrote:*PLUS* you will ALSO need to prove that “The Word” referrers to who you claim, which you have NOT been able to do.
(1)Actually, I’ve proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt for anyone who is really interested in truth. But there will always be those like you, Kerwin, and the Trinitarians who prefer their own illogical man-made concoctions over the actual truth of scripture.
(2)Ed, who is the ONLY person to have EVER dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son? Because that is the one who BECAME FLESH, and dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son. He is called “Jesus” in many scriptures, and “The Word” in a few other ones.
(3)But you cannot LOGICALLY or TRUTHFULLY refute the fact that the being who BECAME FLESH and dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son (John 1:14), is the ONLY being to have EVER dwelled on earth with the glory of God’s only begotten Son (Jesus Christ). You will most likely argue against that clear and easy understanding until the day you die, but you’ll never be able to actually refute it.
Hi Mike,
1) No you haven’t.
2) The Bible says “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” because that “GLORY” had not yet been given to others yet; that occurred on Pentecost.
3) All I can do is present the evidence, you have to make up your own mind.___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgT8 wrote:If Jesus is created/was made then he had to have been created by the Word. Thus he cannot be the Word because he could not have been created through himself a sort of chicken and egg scenario.
And if he is the Word as you contend, then he existed before all that was created including rulers and authorities which would mean he was before all created things which includes the sons of God. So if he is before all creation, then how can he be before himself if he is created. Its as confusing as the Trinity dogma that implies Jesus is the God that he is the son of.
So did God begat the Word and then created all things through the Word? Or did he create the Word and then create all things exclusively through his Word which would mean that the Word was created through the Word. Thus the need for a difficult formula to describe the apparent contradiction.
Hi T8
Excellently explaining the dilemma.
Bravo
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgthe scriptures are right ,you just do not see it right for you are looking for what is wrong not for what is the truth ,
what is truth is proven by what is wrong ,and wrong is proven by what is right and true ,
T8 wrote:This is the exact point. If all that was made/created came by God through the Word, and not anything else existed that was made, then if Jesus is the Word, then the Word could not have been made? Further, if the Word was not made, then how did the Word come to be beside God? Well there are a number of prominent scriptures that point out that he was begotten. Remember it doesn’t say that nothing existed, but that all that was made was made through the Word and no other way.
Obviously God is not included because he was not made so that goes without saying, and secondly the Word could not be made unless the Word was made through the Word, a sort of indefinite loop of which we would need to explain with some kind of weird doctrine similar to what the Trinitarians have to do with theirs.
Hi T8,
Here is another verse to express your point to Mike…
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,
SO THAT THINGS WHICH ARE SEEN WERE NOT MADE OF THINGS WHICH DO APPEAR.
(Heb 11:3)so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear.[/soze]
Meaning, since Jesus did appear, he could not have taken his origin from himself.___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgt8 wrote:Let’s see. We have from the above translations:
•created
•made
•came into being
•received
•happenedOne translation from the Bible Hub list says, ‘came into existence’ as you say it means.
I just spent an hour making a beautiful response for you. I hit “Submit”, and the whole thing disappeared. I tried to arrow back to the previous page, and it said the page had timed out. How frustrating!
So here’s the short version:
John 1:3 NET © http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Joh&chapter=1&verse=3
All things were created 1 by him, and apart from him not one thing was created 2 that has been created.Footnote #1 says:
Or “made”; Grk “came into existence.”
Footnote #2 says:
Or “made”; Grk “nothing came into existence.”
The Greek word in question is “ginomai”, which means:
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
Now here’s a kicker: The Greek word “monogenes”, which is often translated as “only begotten“, is a combination of the word “monos”, which means “only”, and the word “ginomai”, which is defined above. See how a word that is often translated as “created”, is also translated as “begotten”?
I recently posted a list of synonyms of “create” – from Dictionary.com. Among those synonyms were: beget, father, parent, make, bring into being, bring into existence, give birth to, and give life to.
If God did any of those things to the Word, then God created the Word.
T8, this is a lot of good, solid evidence to support what I’ve been saying all along. Yet you keep blowing it off as if it doesn’t exist.
The bottom line is that John 1:3 says all things “came into existence” through the Word, and without him, “nothing came into existence”. Yet you told me that the Word did “come into existence by God”, right?
So once again, how do you explain this conundrum?
Mike
I do not see why t8 sees what he sees for John 1;1-4 and Col;1;15-21 really comes together for a full understanding
God ;created THE WORD(CHRIST){this is the beginning} then God created all things through him (THE WORD) and all scriptures are true ,
mikeboll64 wrote:(2)is it true that God Himself came into existence THROUGH the Word of God?
(3)And is it true that the Word came into existence THROUGH itself?
Ed J wrote:Hi Mike,
2) No
3) also No
Then I have made my point that the one who created all things, and the one through whom all things were created, are EXCEPTIONS to the “all things” that were created by/through them.
Like I told you and t8, although God is one of the “things in heaven”, He is clearly EXCLUDED FROM the “all things in heaven” that were created by Him.
And although the Word did indeed “come into existence by God”, the Word is EXCLUDED FROM the “all things that came into existence THROUGH the Word”.
Consider this true statement: All the kings of Judah came through King David. Now, since David didn’t come THROUGH HIMSELF, he, as the one all those OTHER kings came through, is EXCLUDED FROM the “all kings of Judah” that came through David. But it doesn’t mean that David himself wasn’t a king of Judah. It means he was the first, and all the OTHER ones came through him.
Likewise, the wording of John 1:3 doesn’t mean the Word didn’t “come into existence”. Instead, it means the Word was the FIRST THING to come into existence, and then all OTHER things came into existence through him.
I truly hope that we’re getting nearer to clearer on this one.
terrarica wrote:God created THE WORD(CHRIST){this is the beginning} then God created all things through him (THE WORD) and all scriptures are true
Agreed.
Wakeup wrote:T.
(1)Was the Holy Spirit also created?
(2)Was the Word also created?
(3)Was the spirit of love also created?
(4)Was truth also created?
(5)What about God’s wisdom,is it also created,or was it in God from everlasting?
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
1) The HolySpirit was brought into this existence, what do you call that? <– Please answer)
2) “The Word” is “The HolySpirit” – GOD”s words are Spirit
3) Do you mean God’s spirit or the spirit of attraction?
4) rhetorical
5) Once again “Wisdom” as a SHE (Prob.8), a reference to God’s HolySpirit___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org(2)is it true that God Himself came into existence THROUGH the Word of God?
(3)And is it true that the Word came into existence THROUGH itself?
EdJ wrote:
Hi Mike,
2) No
3) also No
Then I have made my point that the one who created all things, and the one through whom all things were created, are EXCEPTIONS to the “all things” that were created by/through them.
I truly hope that we’re getting nearer to clearer on this one.
Mike wrote:[/quote]
Hi Mike,There is ONLY ONE exception, and that is “God” – God is HIS WORD, not his Son.
As long as as you are making God’s word into his I see no distance gained.
My word is not someone else, my word is not my son, my word is ME.___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEdj.
<tt><b>John 13:3</b></tt> Jesus knowing that ***the Father had given all things into his hands***, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
This was before pantecost Ed.
So you’re wrong.1) The HolySpirit was brought into this existence, <strong class=”bbcode-strong”>what do you call that? <span class=”bbcode-color” style=”color: #0000ff;”><– Please answer</span>)
2) “The Word” is “The HolySpirit” – GOD”s words are Spirit
3) Do you mean God’s spirit or the spirit of attraction?
4) rhetorical
5) Once again “Wisdom” as a SHE (Prob.8), a reference to God’s HolySpirit1. NO. The HS was in God since God was.
2.NO. The Holy Spirit is all truth in the Word.
3.The HS is God’s spirit of truth.God is truth.
4.Nothing of God is created. All Godly qualities are in God since God was.
5.Ever since God was; so is wisdom in Him.
The spirit of men or of the flesh is wicked continually.
wakeup.
___________
I just spent an hour making a beautiful response for you. I hit “Submit”, and the whole thing disappeared. I tried to arrow back to the previous page, and it said the page had timed out. How frustrating!
Yeah frustrating that. I know Chrome would have preserved your post. I am always thankful when I hit the back button, to see my post still waiting to be published. Could be that IE does not have that capability. You could try pasting your post into Notepad beforehand as a backup. Even easier would be to selecting the text in your post and hit copy. That way if it fails, you have the post in your clipboard and ready to paste back in.
{T.
(1)Was the Holy Spirit also created?(2)Was the Word also created?
(3)Was the spirit of love also created?
(4)Was truth also created?
(5)What about God’s wisdom,is it also created,or was it in God from everlasting?
wakeup.}
1) the holy spirit IS OF GOD ;SO NOT CREATED,BUT PART OF GOD
2) THE BEING THAT HAS THE NAME OF “THE WORD” HAS BEEN CREATED BY GOD THE ONLY CREATION DONE DIRECTLY BY GOD ,(NOT GOD SPEAKING WORD)
3)4) 5) ARE ALL SIMILAR TO NUMBER 1 (ONE)
YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU TRY TO SEPARATE ALL THE ELEMENTS THAT MAKE THE PERSON OF GOD ALMIGHTY INTO DIFFERENT PERSONS WHEN IN FACT THEY ARE ALL BELONGING TO THE SAME PERSON “GOD”
Mike
I do not see why t8 sees what he sees for John 1;1-4 and Col;1;15-21 really comes together for a full understandingGod ;created THE WORD(CHRIST){this is the beginning} then God created all things through him (THE WORD) and all scriptures are true,
First off, it that doesn’t say anywhere that the Word was created, so I am sticking to scripture and not adding my own opinion. Secondly, I am sticking to scripture again when it says the Word was made flesh and that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father, not the only created of the Father.
If you also contend that begotten is just another word for created, then Jesus as the only begotten of the Father means that he is the only created of the God. Obviously that is not the case, so this is a weakness of your view. Jesus is NOT THE ONLY CREATED OF GOD. In fact we are told clearly what God created and how. He created through his Word.
It is not once that we are told that Jesus was begotten or is the ONLY begotten. This is not a random word being chosen here so don’t overlook it. It is deliberate because he was the only one to come directly from the Father, that is why he is the only begotten. We are then taught clearly that all that was made, came from God and through the Word. Elsewhere we are told that all things were made through him, (Yeshua). There is enough here to paint a clear picture. The inescapable conclusion is this:
God (eternal) -> Word/Yeshua (begotten) – > Mankind & Cosmos (created).
The head of the woman is the man, the head of man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.
This is the divine order.Yeshua is not God and he was not created (apart from partaking in creation later). He is unique. The only one who stands between God and Man. The only one who can mediate between God and Man. The only one who can redeem God and Man. The only one who can redeem creation back to God (note he does not redeem himself back to God). And the only one through whom ALL THINGS WERE MADE with nothing that was made coming any other way but through the Word.
If you strictly stay with scripture, then this is what you would say. If you feel at liberty to add or take way things based on your own understanding of things, then at least be curious as to why what you believe is not actually written. It doesn’t say anywhere that the Word was created. Full stop.
Wakeup wrote:(a)NO. The HS was in God since God was.
(b)The HS is God’s spirit of truth.God is truth.Hi Wakeup,
a) I said the HolySpirit was brought into *THIS PLAIN* of existence
b) Of course the HolySpirit is God’s Spirit.
___________
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org{t8 says
he is the only created of the God}Yes “the word” is the only one created directly by God ;and for this Christ his the ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ;IF HE WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE CREATED BY GOD ;<HE WOULD NOT BE THE ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD >for God created many other sons
this is what Paul means;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
then goes on saying ;Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
for God as used his son ,his only son ,son of his nature,a son at his image, to create all other things through him but also for him,
Paul goes on saying ;Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.THIS CONFIRM WHAT IS ALREADY SAID .
Col 1:18 <AND> he is the head of the body, the church……; THIS IS A PLUS TO ALL HE ALREADY IS ,
WHY DID GOD DO THIS ?;Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,(CHRIST HIS SON)
AND YES ;Jn 1:14 “The Word”(JESUS) became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
ALL THIS IS THE TRUTH
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