What does it mean that Jesus came in the flesh?

[mikeboll64]

Testing post, to see if it posts as bold in this thread.

[Proclaimer]

Normal text to me. 🙂

[sonofGod]

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

I John 4:2-3

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To say other wise is a grievous error.

Jesus Christ’s beginning is given in Matthew 1:18

Now the birth [ gennesis – beginning ] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary. His beginning was with his conception and birth, not a moment sooner.

However, God his Father, also known by the name of the Holy Spirit, had plans to have a son well before

Genesis 3:15,

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God, had the plan of redemption planned out before creation, for God’s foreknowledge enabled him to know that man would sin and therefore would need a redeemer.

God’s plan’s for man’s redemption were already fixed before Genesis 3:15, therefore God could speak of future events as accomplished realities.

To be just, since one man sinned, it had to be another man who did the redeeming. If it took God to redeem man, then God could have stepped in immediately after Adam and Eve sinned and fixed it right there.

Romans 5:15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

One man erred, another man corrected the error.

If the man Jesus Christ existed in any way, (other than in God’s foreknowledge) before his conception and birth, he would not be a man, for then all men would have had to exist before their conception and birth.

Jesus Christ, not spirit, not God, but Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

[mikeboll64]

sonofGod wrote:

If the man Jesus Christ existed in any way, (other than in God’s foreknowledge) before his conception and birth, he would not be a man, for then all men would have had to exist before their conception and birth.

Matthew 3:9
I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

If God can make men from stones, then surely He can make a man from an already existing spirit being. The fact that Jesus existed in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being (Phil 2:6-8) doesn’t prohibit him from actually BEING a human being once he became flesh. (John 1:14)

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

[Proclaimer]

Tatian (165 A.D)
God was in the beginning, but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Word. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary basis of all being, inasmuch as no creature was yet in existence, was alone, but inasmuch as He was all powerful, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Word-power, the Word himself also, who was in Him, subsists. And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 175 A.D)
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bosom, begat him, emitting him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by him He made all things. He [the Word] is called “the Beginning” [arche],1 because he rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and arche, and wisdom, and Power of The Highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things.

Irenaeus (ca. 185 A.D)
Stephen teaching these truths, when he was yet on earth, saw the glory of God, and Jesus on His right hand, and exclaimed, “Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” These words he said, and was stoned, and thus did he fulfil the perfect doctrine, imitating in every respect the leader of martyrdom, and praying for those who were slaying him, in these words, “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.”

Clement of Alexandria (ca. 200)
The Son is the power of God, as being the Father’s most ancient Word before the making of all things.

He is the true only-begotten, the express image of the glory of the Universal King and Almighty Father…. [the only-begotten] the Second Cause.

[Proclaimer]

Regarding the above post, from what I have read, the Second Century fathers had the view that God is eternal and from God came the Word/Wisdom/Yeshua. He was the second. Just as one torch (fire) lights another, so the Word IN God begat the Word WITH God.

Is this view valid? Scripture says that God created all things by his Word. It also says that all things were created through Jesus Christ.

My question is this. If a pre-incarnate Yeshua did not exist as the Word that was WITH God, or if he was not second, then who was second. Who was the firstborn of all creation? Whoever the second to exist was, he must be important right? I mean, the eldest son has a special birthright. What of the one who was brought into being first? Would not his birthright be greater than all others?

[kerwin]

SonofGod,

John wrote the word of I John 4:2-3 to a people who knew what he was speaking of today many misinterpret it because they lack the knowledge John’s hearers had. We can speculate about what it means but each person interprets it according to their own teachings.

Some believe John wrote it to warn believers about the error of the false gnostic doctrines but those doctrines have evolved in one way or another since then. Some now confess Jesus was a living human while on earth.

[kerwin]

T8,

SonofGod has a point as ‘Now the birth [ gennesis – beginning ] of Jesus Christ” tells us that it is the beginning of the creation called the Jesus Christ so it is clear the creation know as Jesus Christ did not exist previously.

So if your counter is correct and this equivalent to a rock or earth being recreated as a human being then it follows that just as a rock is not a human being in any way then Jesus Christ would not be the creature that he was made of. He would be 100% human, physically, soulish, and spiritually. A new creature as old has passed away.

[Proclaimer]

Not sure what you are getting at Kerwin, but it is written that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, obeyed his God till death, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with him before the world began. Even Stephen testified that Jesus is at the right hand of God in glory, and we are told it is the same glory that he had before.

And if Jesus is not the first-born of all creation then who is. Give me the name of the first to be with God? And if you cannot, then how come God has not revealed the first to be with him to creation?

[kerwin]

T8,

My point is a earth in the shape of a rock is not a human being. The human being that is formed from it is a human being and like when God created Adam from earth and breathed life into it then the form became a living soul.

An angel as well as any other having a soul is a soul is already a living soul.

Is the creature soul destroyed when they are made into a different creature? Can the soul of creature be changed into the soul of another? These questions are not directly answered by scripture but I do not believe the soul of a beast is equivalent to the soul of a human being. Instead believe if you were to place an animal in a human body they would still be an animal. In short Jesus would be this preexistent being in a human body and not a human being. The time spoke in Scripture as his genesis would not be his beginning.

[mikeboll64]

Good point, t8. I have worded it this way:

Pick a name, any name, and let’s pretend he was the first creature God ever created. Let’s call him “Larry Bob”. So if Larry Bob was the very first creature God created, could we say that Larry Bob was:

1. Created as the first of God’s works? (Prov 8:22-31)

2. The beginning of the creation by God? (Rev 3:14)

3. The firstborn of every creature? (Col 1:15)

And the answer to all three would be “YES!” In fact, those would be very OBVIOUS statements to make about the first creature God ever created, right? But these things AREN’T said about someone named “Larry Bob”. Instead, they are said about someone named “Jesus”.

Now, to go a step further, let’s say that God, for whatever reason, decided that Larry Bob must be born on earth from a human woman. Could we then say, about Larry Bob:

1. He emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being? (Phil 2:6-8)

2. Since the children were flesh, Larry Bob also had to partake in flesh? (Hebrews 2:14)

3. Larry Bob became flesh? (John 1:14)

4. Larry Bob came in the flesh? (2 John 1:7)

And the answer to all four would be “YES!” In fact, those would be OBVIOUS things to say about someone who used to exist in heaven, but then became a flesh and blood human being. Yet these things AREN’T said about someone named “Larry Bob”. Instead, they are said about someone named “Jesus”.

[Proclaimer]

I agree Mike. These words would be true of the one who came into being first. And this is the point of difference between us and Yeshua. God didn’t create all things through us. We didn’t exist in the form of God and then empty ourselves and come in flesh, (at least it is not specifically written anyway). Paul teaches for us that the physical body comes first, then the spiritual. But for Christ we are told that he existed in the form of God, then took on flesh and then the same type of body that we will also one day inherit.

Now there is something here that is difficult for most to grasp. And that is that spiritual beings seem to be able to take on flesh or at least appear like men. We see this is true with Christ after the resurrection and we see it with many angelic encounters. Yet angels also appear in a glorious form to the point that the observer falls down to worship the angel. This is true of Christ too. But we have the transfiguration to help us figure this out. Jesus was a man, yet he became glorious like we read about in Revelation where his eyes are like fire etc.

As I heard one person put it. A spiritual body can do all that the flesh can and more. Although that may not be fully true because a flesh body can pro-create. And this leads me to the angels that left their former abode and were able to procreate with woman.

[Proclaimer]

Kerwin, there is something about bodies many (including Believers) struggle to grasp.

There is a spiritual body and a physical one. We see angels, Christ, and even Elijah and Moses as having both or at least the appearance of both.

However, if the soul is really who we are, then a body, bodies, or a transforming body will have no effect with regards to who we are. Just a different or transforming abode. But we still reside inside. If you do not believe that we are a soul, then a different body that has the spirit breathed into it is another person and then the whole thing about bodies becomes difficult to accept.

I look at it like this. I am a soul that sits in a physical body and am awaiting my spiritual home. Inside my soul, I can be led by God’s Spirit that dwells in me. Or I can choose to obey the lusts of the flesh. My soul is influenced by both, but hopefully a winning margin by the Spirit. Thus my will resides there if it can CHOOSE the flesh or the Spirit.

We see that souls are under the throne of God and are resting this is while their bodies were rotting in the ground after being crucified by evil men.

I guess the real us is the soul with God’s Spirit giving the soul life. That is why Adam became a living soul. It doesn’t say he became a soul, but a living soul. The body is the vehicle to the worlds or the container that holds us within certain boundaries depending on what the body is capable of. Without a physical body for example, then theoretically I could float through walls or jump inside a pig, but would find it difficult to make a post on Heaven Net. And a spiritual body would allow me to do things and go to places that are otherwise out of bounds to me now. Who knows, maybe I could explore the Universe that God created as the spiritual is probably not be subject to the physical laws of time and space.

[Wakeup]

Mikeb.

This is what proverbs 8 truly said; Yours needs to be corrected.

Proverbs 8:22 ***The LORD possessed*** me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
(NOT CREATED;BUT POSSESSED = IN GOD’S POSSESSION).

Proverbs 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

(BROUGHT FORTH,NOT CREATED).

Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

(BROUGHT FORTH).

Proverbs 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

(I WAS THERE).

Proverbs 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Proverbs 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
(I WAS BY HIM).

Playing around with scriptures will only get you in a mess.
Get your conscience clear,or stay as it is and live with it.

wakeup.

[sonofGod]

Matthew 3:9
I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

If God can make men from stones, then surely He can make a man from an already existing spirit being. The fact that Jesus existed in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being (Phil 2:6-8) doesn’t prohibit him from actually BEING a human being once he became flesh. (John 1:14)

God certainly can make children of Abraham out of stones, scriptures says He can

But has he?

Has he ever made children of Abraham out of stones?

What God can do and what He has done are two different categories.

Why would God make children of Abraham out of stones?

Is there a shortage of children of Abraham?

Where in scripture does it say that

He can make a man from an already existing spirit being.

Why would he?

The fact that Jesus existed in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being (Phil 2:6-8)

Have you read Philippians 2:6-8?

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Where in Philippians 2:6-8 does it stateJesus existed in the form of God BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being

Where does the word BEFORE appear in that passage?

Since when are you the one who declares what God can and cannot do?

Who are you to declare what God ought to be able to do?

Is not God perfectly capable of telling you what He can and cannot do?

Is not God perfectly capable of telling you what He will do and won’t do?

How is that you find inserting you words into passages of scripture acceptable to God?

Seems to me if God wanted the word “BEFORE” in Philippians 2:6-8, God would have had Paul write it down originally.

You have a problem with God’s version of the truth?

Where does it say that Jesus “preexisted” in a spiritual form before he came in the flesh?

God’s foreknowledge and God’s power are the reasons why God can call those things which be not as though they were.

Romans 4:17

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Job 40:2

Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him ? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

[sonofGod]

Kerwin,

How about simply reading it for what it says?

[kerwin]

SonofGod,

Then a person does not understand it.

[kerwin]

Addition,

“for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life”, 2 Corinthians 3:6.

It takes the Spirit to get the true understanding and all of its true effects.

[kerwin]

Additional.

It is my though that it is speaking of Jesus’ soul coming to abide in his flesh much as Paul taught about himself abiding in his flesh, Philippians 1:24. It is a teaching to test the spirits of.

[kerwin]

T8,

I believe Scripture teaches us Jesus Christ was a human at one time which I leads me to understand that Jesus continually has a human soul despite what body he bears. I believe he began when he was conceived of his mother just as that passage SonofGod quoted seems to say.

I am responding to your last post and everything in it sounds reasonable.

[Author]

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