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Pierre,
I believe those two things also. And even as I'm believing them, I also believe God literally sits on a throne that is next to the throne Jesus literally sits on.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2014,06:24) Quote (kerwin @ May 24 2014,15:48) Mike, Quote He wanted to see and touch the actual wounds from Jesus' crucifixion – in order to believe it was truly Jesus, and that he was truly raised from the dead. Some translations claim he did while most say it was the imprint, print, marks, etc. of the nails. I found one that said scars. I looked at the original language and imprint is most likely right. Even though some translated it wound I saw no where else the same word is translated wound but I did see other words the more often translated wound. stigma may have been better as Paul uses it to speak of Jesus' marks in Galatians 6:17.
Hi Kerwin,I wasn't aware you didn't like the translation of “wounds”. My point had nothing to do with “wound” versus “imprint”.
My point is: No matter what you want to call the “marks” Thomas touched, it is clear that these marks were made on Jesus' OLD body.
A newly formed body from God would not contain the past marks from Jesus' OLD body. I mean, why would God give Jesus a wonderful NEW body that was already damaged and scarred from things that happened to his OLD body?
So the fact that there were marks on Jesus at all tell us that he was resurrected in the same exact body in which he died.
Mike,My point is they pulled it out of a hat and is not really an option. I know of no evidence it is even a possibility but knowledge of its use is limited to the NT. I am not sure about scar as their does not seem to be a particular word that meant scar.
The new body is derived from the old body just as a plant is derived from its seed. Even then God could have formed it without scars if he so chose to. The point is that Jesus' body did not see corruption in the day nor would it see corruption any more after he was raised. That is because when it was raised it was no longer subject to corruption. It had changed.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 25 2014,06:55) Oh, and there's also the fact that John and others saw Jesus “as he was after the resurrection”, but they didn't ever see him “as he NOW is”. Also, don't forget the transfiguration, Kerwin. What was the purpose for allowing the disciples to see Jesus in such a brilliant and glorified state of being? All for naught?
Was that the same brilliance that blinded Paul on the road to Damascus? I think so.
Miike,Some argue that was just a vision though I do not agree though it was a holy event that certain disciples observed.
It was his mortal body that was transfigured. Perhaps God transfigured his immortal body as well but but clearly it can be turned on and off. If I remember correctly Paul was blind by a beam of light which his companions saw but were not blinded by. If so it is different that the transfiguration.
I think Peter said the transfigure occurred to declare Jesus' majesty.
Mike,
Quote He is no longer flesh in heaven. That is false belief for a number of reasons.
1) Paul did not know if a man was in his body or out of his body when he entered the third heaven. I assume you believe that is the third heaven of seven the book of 1 Enoch speaks of.
2) 1 Corinthians mentions inheriting the kingdom of God and that is always the world to come and not the present earth or the present heaven.
3+) Others that I do not see a need to go into right now.
Nick,
They are reasons for Paul did not know if a man entered heave in his body or out of it in 2 Corinthians. That means Paul was not saying a man could not enter heaven in this body in 1 Corinthians.
What are you claim Paul got forgetful and forgot that no one can enter heaven in body?
Nick,
I build by doctrine so not to cause scripture to conflict with itself. I warn you where I see conflicts in your chosen doctrine so as not to take part in your error.
You are claiming that a man can enter heave either in his body or out of his body but cannot enter it in his body.
Kerwin.
Why is your spirit denying Jesus own words?
He said: when you are born of the spirit; you are spirit.He said:You are spirit. And He comperes it with the wind.
Why is the spirit in you contradicting the HS?wakeup.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 26 2014,16:54) Hi WU,
No quite
You really need to work on accuracy if you ever want to be taken seriously.
What does your spirit say Nick?wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:28) The new body is derived from the old body just as a plant is derived from its seed. Even then God could have formed it without scars if he so chose to. The point is that Jesus' body did not see corruption in the day nor would it see corruption any more after he was raised. That is because when it was raised it was no longer subject to corruption. It had changed.
Okay Kerwin,Let's say everything you just said is correct, and God has a choice of raising a one-legged man from the dead either WITH that second leg, or WITHOUT it. And in Jesus' case, God CHOSE to raise Jesus in a new body that still contained the “marks/scars/imprints/wounds/whatever” from the trials he endured in his old body.
How would that theory align with the words John said? Because John clearly said he DOESN'T know what he will be, but when he is able to see Jesus “as he is”, he will also be like Jesus is.
If John did indeed see Jesus how he now is (for 40 days after the resurrection)………
1. Why wouldn't John already BE like Jesus is?
2. Why would John say he DIDN'T know what he will be like – since he apparently DID know exactly what Jesus' new body was like?
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:35) I think Peter said the transfigure occurred to declare Jesus' majesty.
So God made Jesus to shine as brilliantly as the sun to declare Jesus' majesty, but now that Jesus has been exalted to the highest position anyone can attain, he looks like a regular old non-shiny human being, full of the scars from his earthly life – just like the rest of us who still dwell on earth?Hmmmm……… how “majestic”!
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:37) Mike, The last Adam, aka the inner man, is a life given spirit just as Genesis bears witness.
Did you mean “life-giving“, Kerwin?If so, in what way is a person's “inner man” able to GIVE life to themselves or others?
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,19:05) 2) 1 Corinthians mentions inheriting the kingdom of God and that is always the world to come and not the present earth or the present heaven.
Kerwin,I'm still baffled about his “current heaven” versus “new heaven” talk.
Nor is the kingdom of God “always the world to come”. I don't know where you got that from.
I think this “new heaven versus current heaven” stuff stems from your desire to separate Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus in John 3 from Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15.
But I don't know why you would think the kingdom of God Jesus was talking about to Nicodemus would be any different than the kingdom of heaven Paul spoke about in 1 Cor 15.
There is no evidence of such a thing, and so I have decided that it is just one more of your attempts to MOLD the scriptures to your own liking. And since that is the case, should I really use up my time trying to refute something for which you have no support in the first place?
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,19:05) 1) Paul did not know if a man was in his body or out of his body when he entered the third heaven.
Did Paul specifically mention the man's EARTHLY FLESH BODY?If not, the Paul could have just as easily been saying, “I know of a man who went to heaven. I don't know if he was in bodily form in heaven, or just a conscience floating around.”
But if we battled your one very shaky “proof” against the MANY other clear scriptural teachings that we have been showing you for months – how do you think your one shaky “proof” would hold up?
1. I'll let you in on a secret……… flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of heaven.
Versus…………..
2. I don't know if the man was in a BODILY FORM in heaven, or if his consciousness was just traveling through heaven void of a body.
#1 is just one of MANY, Kerwin. Yet it is all that is needed to tip the scales in our favor. That is because it is a CLEAR and DIRECT statement, which follows the following teaching:
There are different kinds of bodies. Those of the earth have one kind, those of heaven have a different kind. We have already borne the likeness of the man whose body was made from dust. We WILL bear the spiritual body that those of heaven have.
God will not leave us naked after we get rid of these earthly tents. He will instead clothe us with a different kind of body – not made by human hands (flesh), but made by God Himself.
And in case you didn't catch it from all of my other words……….. the flesh and blood bodies that people of the earth have are NOT allowed in heaven.
So once you add the CONTEXT of my #1 to it, there isn't even a contest anymore, Kerwin.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 27 2014,00:21) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2014,18:28) The new body is derived from the old body just as a plant is derived from its seed. Even then God could have formed it without scars if he so chose to. The point is that Jesus' body did not see corruption in the day nor would it see corruption any more after he was raised. That is because when it was raised it was no longer subject to corruption. It had changed.
Okay Kerwin,Let's say everything you just said is correct, and God has a choice of raising a one-legged man from the dead either WITH that second leg, or WITHOUT it. And in Jesus' case, God CHOSE to raise Jesus in a new body that still contained the “marks/scars/imprints/wounds/whatever” from the trials he endured in his old body.
How would that theory align with the words John said? Because John clearly said he DOESN'T know what he will be, but when he is able to see Jesus “as he is”, he will also be like Jesus is.
If John did indeed see Jesus how he now is (for 40 days after the resurrection)………
1. Why wouldn't John already BE like Jesus is?
2. Why would John say he DIDN'T know what he will be like – since he apparently DID know exactly what Jesus' new body was like?
Mike,1) Scripture states the trump will sound and then the dead will be raised and we will be changed. Even if the change occurs because we see Jesus as he the trump must also be sounded for the dead in Christ to rise and the living in Christ to changed. Since the trump was not sounded anyone that has changed or risen from the dead is an exception to the rule. The two witnesses will be an exception.
2) John does not say he does not know. What he instead says is “what we will be has not yet been revealed”.
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