What About John 1:1 in the NWT?

Participant

Quote (martian @ May 16 2007,05:16)

WorshippingJesus

Let's assume for a moment that I am all wrong and you are right. I have a couple of questions for you.

Do you agree that part of Jesus' mission on Earth was to be an example for mankind?
Do you agree that it is part of God's plan for us to become like Jesus?

If you say yes to these questions then answer m this.
How does maing Jesus a God help me to become like Him?
How can I become like Jesus if He is God?

martian

Jesus is both man and God.

He is the Lord from heaven. God in the flesh!

If all the Father wanted us to do is to merely be a perfect man, then why did Jesus do so many Godlike miracles.

Why not just live a perfect life and let that be our example?

If Jesus is simply an example to show us how to live unto God, then why does Jesus use terms like…

-Come unto me – Follow me – Loose your life for me – I will draw all men unto me – Believe in me – I will raise him up – I am the way – I am the truth -I am the life – I am the bread from heaven – I am the good shephard – If any man hear my words – they (the scriptures) testify of me – all things that the Father has is mine – come unto me and drink -I am the door -I am the light -I will send the Comforter – I will be with you unto the end of the world -All power is given unto me –
my kingdom is not of this world – I am your master and Lord –

I am sure there are many more, but why did Jesus use these terms? Why didnt he just point us to the Father?

Truly he was pointing us to the Father.

Jesus said…

Jn 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 *If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.*
8 Philip saith unto him, *Lord, shew us the Father (God)*, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, *Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me (God), Philip?* he that hath seen me hath seen the Father (God); and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father (God)?

The Jesus I believe in is true God, One with the Father and the Spirit!

You didnt answer my question.

Whos lives in you? The Father, Son or the Holy Spirit?

May 15, 2007 at 7:18 pm#53577

Participant

Hi W,
So Christ really is his own father?
No.
Have you not heard he was anointed by God and did these things in the power of God in him?

Acts 10
” 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; “

May 15, 2007 at 9:06 pm#53578

Participant

Hello!

Can anyone show me where Jesus said…

**Dont follow me, Follow my Father, for I am just a man**?

**Dont worship me, worship the Father, for I am just a man**?

**Dont believe in me, believe in my Father, for I am just a man**?

**Dont call me God, call my Father God, for I am just a man**?

**Dont come to me, go to my Father, for I am just a man**?

**Dont believe my works, believe my Fathers, for I am just a man**?

**Dont believe my words, believe my Fathers, for I am just a man**?

**Dont believe “I AM, believe my Father is “I AM”, for I am just a man**?

May 15, 2007 at 9:20 pm#53579

martian

Participant

Worshippingjesus –

As I came back on to paste this I noticed you were still at it. Still trying to deny the plan of God.

I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree. I can now see why my friend left this site. I fear I have been caught up in the realms of Christian Greek Philosophy. I should have never started to play in that playground because it is not furtile soil. Arguing subtle details of Greek, tenses, pronouns and such are a complete waste of time if the end conclusions work against the plan of God. God’s word does not return void. In other words When God speaks through His doctrine/teachings it does something that changes the heart or character and promotes, defends and helps to complete His plan. Compared to this goal all the debate of Greek and Hebrew are of no importance. If a teaching does nothing, or worse works against God’s plan for man then no matter what proof texts can be shown the doctrine is wrong. Somewhere along the line a mistake has surely crept in that side tracked the teaching from it’s primary intent. When a person or a group of people become so intent on proving their teachings correct despite it’s failure to promote God’s plan they actually find themselves working against God.

Before I close my discussions with you I feel a need to point out a few things.

The Logos is a statement. God was making a statement with Jesus Christ. Just like I might make a statement by giving my wife flowers. I would be portraying my love to her. A statement is an expression of an intent or motive. He represents God’s nature/character to the rest of humanity.

Hebrews 1:3?And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

God was showing His intention for humanity. God’s motive is always love and because of his love for his creation God was showing humanity their possible future. Jesus is perfected humanity. He is what God started out to create with Adam. Jesus had dominion over the Earth and all of creation. This was Adam’s position before the fall. Jesus was a blood sacrifice for us to buy back our rightfull position in the economy of God.

Those who insist on making Jesus a God deny themselves the opportunity to fully complete God’s plan for them. Those that teach this philosophy hold others back with rhetoric and “it’s a mystery” or “take it by faith” foolishness. They hold others back from becoming what God intended for them. Engaging in fruitless circular debates over tenses and pronouns they never come to the knowledge of the truth of God’s plan. This is the work of the anti-christ. Satan loves nothing better then to place in the back of their mind that Jesus is God and therefore they can never REALLY be like Him.

I fear for you because you are so adamant in your head knowledge that you miss the entire point. I fear you are so caught up in trying to understand the Hebrew writers of scripture from a Greek perspective that you will never get it. Like the teachers in scripture you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. You miss the more important issues of mercy and justice. You miss the point of functionality of God’s teachings. You never take into consideration weather what you are teaching helps to make humanity like Christ. You never examine if your teaching actually does anything toward God’s goal of perfecting sons and daughters liken unto Himself.

It was God’s justice to give us a perfect example of completed humanity. An example who learned and developed the character traits of God. One who was trusted with God’s power because He had learned God’s Wisdom. Jesus is the first fruits of humanity. He is the forerunner. We run the race behind him. It was God’s justice to do it in this way because any way other then a full and complete human would not be a fair example for us. It would not be fair to expect us to follow in the footsteps of a God. God is fair in all that He does. We will be judged on the basis of a comparison between us and our brother Jesus. Again God could not fairly make this comparison without Jesus being “in nature” just like us. Those that deny Christ full humanity, deny themselves the possibility to become like him.

The entire world groans like in childbirth for the revealing of the sons of God. Sons like Jesus that will turn this world upside down. Sons who have learned the wisdom of their heavenly Father. Sons that like their brother Jesus have had their character developed to become like their Father.

I do pray that someday, before it is too late, you will see that Jesus calls you as a brother. That you can be like Him and have the same relationship with your mutual heavenly Father.

May 15, 2007 at 9:21 pm#53580

Participant

Hi WJ,
Did he work in his own powers?
Did he anoint himself?
Does God need to be anointed?
Is he not really like us?
Then how can we follow him?

May 15, 2007 at 9:23 pm#53581

martian

Participant

I have no doubt you will run off on a Greek thinking tangent with my last post. For that I am truly sorry.
I am not impressed with your biblical knowledge. I can be impressed with your understanding of the plan for God and how your teachings help to promote that.

May 15, 2007 at 9:34 pm#53582

Participant

Quote (martian @ May 16 2007,09:20)

Worshippingjesus –

As I came back on to paste this I noticed you were still at it. Still trying to deny the plan of God.

Before I close my discussions with you I feel a need to point out a few things.

I do pray that someday, before it is too late, you will see that Jesus calls you as a brother. That you can be like Him and have the same relationship with your mutual heavenly Father.

martian

I assure you I know in whom I have believed and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Was I talking about God the Father or God the Son in the above verse?

I only have 1 master and Lord, and serve only one God. That God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. For I dont serve the same Jesus as you.

You never answered my question though.

I assume you dont have an answer!

But I wish you the very best in your endevours to know him.

Tell me though, are you m42?

I hope not for that would be dishonest of you.

Blessings!

May 15, 2007 at 9:34 pm#53583

Participant

Hi Martian,
You say
” Jesus is perfected humanity. He is what God started out to create with Adam. Jesus had dominion over the Earth and all of creation. This was Adam’s position before the fall.”

But of course Adam did not enjoy the anointing of the Spirit of God which empowered the man from heaven and enabled him to perfectly serve God. Adam was never going to be able to be as Christ and God had to show us our emptiness and helplessness through the behaviours of the natural man, Adam, so that we might listen to Him and know to follow Christ.

May 15, 2007 at 9:37 pm#53584

hope2u

Participant

They are Father and Son. I honor both and have no need to qualify how much I honor either one or both. I will not be pulled into picky discussions. It is the picky discussions that cause division in the Body of Christ. There are far more important ways to use the time we have left before Jesus returns, regardless of when that is. When a person dies without the truth of Father and Son, that is YHVH and Jesus and the born-again experience in the Spirit of YHVH, that person doesn't have a second chance to see their error and change. When the call is made for the first resurrection, those who seek and believe the truth as it is written in the Bible will rise to meet Jesus and have eternal life with Father and Son. Those who believe lies and seek their truth from human understanding will stay for the second resurrection after the millennium and suffer eternal separation from Father and Son in a very ugly uncomfortable place called hell. Like I said, those living in the Spirit of God have access to God's wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, and strength. We have that access because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. And because he received glory, honor and power after his ascension, we who believe in him and ask forgivness for our sins receive the Spirit of God. Yes, I honor Father and Son. I stake my life on their truth and will not deny either of them to the point of death, forced or natural.
I am not a member of any denomination. I will not honor denominational differences. I attend church because beleivers need fellowship. I also do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture or that Rome has anything to do with the Antichrist of the Tribulation period. I believe the 144,000 of Israel have a very special purpose for that time and into the millennium. I would guess that at least 95% of all believers are not even prepared to enter the last seven years of Daniel's 70-7's much less even know what to look for. If you want anything more from me you will have to read my website.
My Webpage

May 15, 2007 at 9:43 pm#53585

Participant

Hi H2u and welcome,
You say
“we who believe in him and ask forgivness for our sins receive the Spirit of God. “

No need for rebirth through water AND the Spirit, just assent?
Jesus submitted to water baptism.
We follow him.

May 16, 2007 at 12:34 am#53586

hope2u

Participant

Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law. John the Baptist was in the line of priests and Jesus was in the line of kings. In the Law the high priest washed in the temple laver before entering the Holy Place. The baptism in water performed by John for Jesus was part of the fulfillment of the Law he spoke of. It was prophesied in Isaiah 11:1 that a branch from Jesse, who we know is Jesus, would have the Spirit of the Lord rest on him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. This did happen when Jesus came up out of the water. By being baptised in water he signified the priesthood and being anointed in the Spirit of God he signified rebirth. In John 3:3 Jesus said “unless one is born-again he cannot see the kingdom of God. The Body of Christ is a priesthood of believers and ministers of God's Word. John 3:5-8 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Being born of the Spirit is the same as receiving a seal with the Father's name on it. In the tribulation period people will receive the seal of 666. The faithful in Christ will be sealed by the Father's name, Jesus name and the name of New Jerusalem. Does salvation depend on water baptism? Water baptism is an outward sign of intent but it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves. If there is no water available would that nullify your decision for Christ? No! I didn't feel complete until I was baptised in water. I had a pool in my back yard and wanted my friends in Christ to baptise me then and there. They wouldn't do it. They said I had to wait. They were wrong. It was several months later that I was baptised in water but I had the Spirit of God from the moment I confessed Jesus and my Lord and Savior. I know this because I was suddenly able to read the Bible when I couldn't before. I was hungry to read it and soak up every word. Satan fought hard to change my mind but I wouldn't then and will never go back. It isn't what is outside that counts, it is what is inside. What is in your heart is the decision maker for Father and Son to seal the believer in their name for preparation of His return and that call to “come up here.” Being sealed in the Spirit is the beginning of wisdom and understanding, counsel and knowledge, strength and the fear of the Lord.
As Peter said, “…grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen

May 16, 2007 at 4:21 am#53587

Participant

Thank you H2u,
We see so many who deny the necessity for obedience instead preaching salvation by new gospels such as by intellectual assent or by inviting Christ into our hearts, but Acts and the rest of scripture does not show us these 'other way's.

May 16, 2007 at 5:39 am#53588

hope2u

Participant

HN,
I realize your need to test and am pleased that you do. I am very strong on the need to test everything by God's Word. I am beginning to see some changes in the Body, perhaps because more are realizing the need to test.
Most of the people I know and have known don't question the doctrines they follow, such at the deadly pre-trib and trinity doctrines. I have been ostracized many times because I don't believe in them and give Bible based reasons for not believing them. Tim LaHaye told me I am leading people to hell.
I am thrilled to find others who don't believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person from YHVH. God has a name, is a person and has only one Spirit who gives us new life and one Son, Jesus, who is our Lord and savior. There are only two, not three, and they are one (meaning Jesus is of one mind with and obedient to his father, God, in the Spirit of God). They are one in the Spirit of God. So you see the person we all know as the Holy Spirit is the person of YHVH. I, for one, am honored to be sealed in the name of God and Jesus and to have both with me by the power of the Spirit of YHVH 24/7. If you wonder why I continually use YHVH, it is to give honor and glory to him. The title of “God” is too generic and we do not have a generic god.
Just a random thought on closing…Isn't it odd that a church full of people can sing the song, “We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord” and still believe in the Trinity and pre-trib?
Praises, honor and glory to our Lord Jesus Christ and our father, YHVH

May 16, 2007 at 6:32 am#53589

Participant

Quote

You do realise that by citing an apologetic writing that argues for a qualitative rendering of the predicate noun “theos” in the last clause of John 1:1 you are effectively arguing against the NWT rendering (which is indefinite), don't you?

–Is 1:18

No, not at all. Please look a little closer at the post I quoted, noting the last sentence. In that post, Jason Debuhn says that if pressed he could explain why FOR JOHN, our English “a god” and “divine” would have meant the same thing.

He said:
“Being honest to the original Greek, we cannot narrow the range of acceptable translation of John 1:1c any further than to say it is EITHER “And the Word was a god” OR “And the Word was divine.” I can, if pressed, explain at length why these two translations amount to the same thing FOR JOHN.”

Also,
“The bottom line is that “The Word was a god” is exactly what the Greek says. “The Word was divine” is a possible meaning of this Greek phrasing. “The Word was God” is almost certainly ruled out by the phrasing John uses, and it is not equivalent to “The Word was divine” because without any justification in the original Greek it narrows the meaning from a quality or category (god/divine) to an individual (God).””

He prefers “divine.” But of course, “divine” isn't the word used. It's tricky, because there isn't a perfect way to translate this from Greek to English.

It's odd that the very reason this was quoted in it's website was stated:
“As it might be thought that what Dr BeDuhn has written regarding how best to render QEOS EN HO LOGOS as “the Word was divine” and this somehow undermines the rendering of “the Word was a god” and even obviates the Witnesses 'use' of Dr BeDuhn regarding the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, the following may prove helpful to explain a little more this scholars reasons for his preference in both translation _and_ understanding. Dr BeDuhn himself has written:”
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworl….1.1.htm

It then quotes Jason's words, the post that you responded to.

May 16, 2007 at 6:50 am#53590

Participant

Quote

Christians have been following and believing John 1:1 as it is written for centurys.

–WJ

Yes, they have.

(2 Timothy 4:3-4) “For there will be a period of time [“centur{ies}” as in your example] when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers [maybe a few scholars included] for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.”

Your 'majority is right' is so irritating because it's completely baseless, illogical, goes against common sense, the Bible and what we know from history about the majority.

Quote

Suddenly a few antagonist and scattered scholars come along to say the translations we have are wrong, including the NWT. Sorry dont buy it.

YOu don't have to buy it. There is no charge.
You quoted my question:
“Question: I think I asked it before, but would you consider any translation “non-credible” if it translates one word differently from all other or most other translations?”

YOUR ANSWER:
“No. But you are using a hypothetical here, because you have yet to show me any credible evidence that the translation of John 1:1 is incorrect.”

So…you wouldn't consider a Bible to be non-credible just because it translates one word differently than the vast majority?

Yet, you consider the NWT non-credible based on the “a” in John 1:1.
Is that because of bias?

This is tricky. To answer “no” as you did, shows your bias.
To answer “yes” I would have shown you several of your credible Bible's and their one word differences.

I would have shown you “easter” (name of a false god) in the KJV at acts 12:4 where other Bibles have “passover.”
Good bye KJV as being credible, if that's your criteria….etc.

So, it's bias then.

It's amazing how bias works. People who are biased look for others that are the same and say: 'Look, we're the same. Therefore, you are wrong, because you're different.'

sad.

May 16, 2007 at 7:01 am#53591

Participant

Quote (david @ May 16 2007,18:50)

Quote

Christians have been following and believing John 1:1 as it is written for centurys.

–WJ

Yes, they have.

Your 'majority is right' is so irritating because it's completely baseless, illogical, goes against common sense, the Bible and what we know from history about the majority.

Quote

Suddenly a few antagonist and scattered scholars come along to say the translations we have are wrong, including the NWT. Sorry dont buy it.

YOUR ANSWER:
“No. But you are using a hypothetical here, because you have yet to show me any credible evidence that the translation of John 1:1 is incorrect.”

So…you wouldn't consider a Bible to be non-credible just because it translates one word differently than the vast majority?

Yet, you consider the NWT non-credible based on the “a” in John 1:1.
Is that because of bias?

This is tricky. To answer “no” as you did, shows your bias.
To answer “yes” I would have shown you several of your credible Bible's and their one word differences.

I would have shown you “easter” (name of a false god) in the KJV at acts 12:4 where other Bibles have “passover.”
Good bye KJV as being credible, if that's your criteria….etc.

So, it's bias then.

It's amazing how bias works. People who are biased look for others that are the same and say: 'Look, we're the same. Therefore, you are wrong, because you're different.'

sad.

David

You are right. I am biased to the NWT, because it is not credible.

It does not stack against all the other major translations, and is rejected.

Further more the translators of the NWT were not qualified for the translation.

So keep your precious NWT David. But if you believe so much in it then why use other translations here.

Why not quote exclusively from it so others can judge it?

May 16, 2007 at 7:05 am#53592

Participant

Quote

Hi W,
So if the scholars are few and scattered then they are wrong
just because they are not following the majority view?

–Nick

WJ:

Quote

NH
Why dont you take up the task then?
Show me why over 600 scholars should be mistrusted.

YOUR REASONING IS SIMPLY ABSURD!!!!

Listen, there are hundreds of people on here who don't believe the trinity.
If you think they're wrong, I want you to show us why each of them shouldn't be trusted.

Or, why the thousands of evolutionists who have degrees and been to school are wrong.
I guess they're right. Based on your thinking, they would have to be. . . . UNLESS SOMEONE COULD SHOW ONE BY ONE WHY THESE THOUSANDS OF EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGISTS ARE DISHONEST.

INSANITY.

Quote

Its not a matter of just the majority, it is also a matter of credibility, and I have seen no credibility in the NWT nor in the sources he quotes.

Would you like to explain why the sources I quote have no credibility? Is it because of your bias or what exactly are you basing this on? I know that's what you want to be the case, but unfortunately, you are wrong.

Wikipedia:
“The proper rendering from the original Greek language used to write the Gospel of John to English has been a source of serious debate in the area of Bible translation….
This rendering is preferred among popular English translations today. However, this is not unversal in usage among scholarly translations. Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render it:
“…and the Word was divine.”
Other variations also exist. Todays English Version reads:”…and he was the same as God.”
The Revised English Bible reads:”…and what God was, the Word was.”
A few translations have rendered the verse “…and the word was a god” . . . Some scholars staunchly oppose the translation …a god. While other scholars believe it is possible or even preferrable.”

Quote

Surely you are not defending the JWs belief that Michael the arch Angel is Jesus in the flesh?

This is a blatent fear tactic. It has pretty much nothing to do with how to translate John 1:1 and everything to do with: “You're not stupid enough be believe THEM. they believe this other thing.”

I like the way you managed to incorporate so many fallacies into one sentence. Please try to cut back on this.

WJ, to you it was said:
“You better ignor all the apostles other then Paul because they had no degrees in Greek or Hebrew.
I've mentioned this too? Do you ignore these ones? How do you view them? Unscholarly?

May 16, 2007 at 7:06 am#53593

Participant

Quote

You are right. I am biased to the NWT

— WJ

I think your bias is getting in the way of your ability to use your reasoning abilities.

May 16, 2007 at 7:07 am#53594

Participant

Quote

It does not stack against all the other major translations, and is rejected.

–WJ

By whom? You? You're biased, remember?

May 16, 2007 at 7:11 am#53595