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Hi t8,
Please read the following passage,
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
When you are asked to do something or not to do something, don’t give your yes or no with a swear.
Not a good sign when someone takes Jesus’s words completely out of context, and uses it to accuse a person of coming from evil.
If someone is so extraordinarily reckless with a passage such as this, sure makes me question anything else they have to say.
Just horrible!! One thing to take a passage out of context, that happens, another thing to take a passage out of context that is Jesus’s own words in order to make nasty accusations, that a person must be coming from a place of evil if they don’t just simply answer yes or no to a question.
GOOD teachers ask questions and then they ask their students how it was that they drew to that conclusion.
Hi t8,
I have had a rough couple of days, and to come back on this forum to read your post that basically says I must be coming from evil, just makes me all the more sad to say the least.
What do you do for a living?
I consult with staff on how to help children who have been abused and neglected and then have behavioral challenges at school. Today’s agenda involved sexual abuse, a child’s hands being burned on purpose by her mother’s boyfriend, a child who self injures himself and says he wants to die. These children are 3 and 4 years old. Tomorrow will be the same, except I will also spend time training staff on how to restrain children safely when they are injuring themselves or others. The only way I can handle my job is knowing that Christ is returning and wickedness will be no more.
Then I come on this forum to have you accuse me of lying and coming from evil, simply because I want to explain my yes or no question backed up with scriptures. I have been on this forum with you for over a decade. This is a DARK DAY.
Hi All,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Me: “There were giants in the earth in those days”. This does not mean that there will be a plethora of giants through out history. This time was unique in it’s prevalence of giants. “also after that” is secondary. The origin of giants happened in chapter 6. What was the reason? It was because the “sons of God” came into (or had sex with them) the daughter’s of men. Giants did not happen randomly. Some of these giants got to be around 45 feet high during this era.
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange (2087. heteros), flesh are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
https://biblehub.com/greek/2087.htm
(2087. heteros),differentMe: “strange flesh” is not flesh of the same species.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they WERE GIVEN in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Me: “They are the “sons of God” or angels in Luke 17:27. It was a two way street. The sons of God took wives as they pleased. And they were “given wives” voluntarily. In Jude 1:6, it happened again. This matches and “also after that in Gen 6:2. ”The angelic flesh is not exactly like man’s flesh. This is “strange flesh”. Mans destination is not to be made a little lower than the angels but a “little lower” than God himself. Kingdom of God also can mean the REALM (932. basileia) of God.
https://biblehub.com/greek/932.htmHi All,
There are three other places were the phrase, “the sons of God” are used to refer to angels.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars (arch angels) sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Me: Man was not created at this point in Genesis 1:1. Man was later created of the dust of the earth. So the sons of God cannot be mankind.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.’’
Me: The meetings in both places in Job is in heaven. We know that no man hath ascended into heaven (John 3:13). Therefore “sons of God” here refer to angels and not men. The angels are of the heavenly council and meet with God periodically in heaven. Notice that in Job 1:6 Satan hath ascended from earth into heaven to meet God.
THE HEAVENLY COUNCIL:
http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Divine-CouncilHi All,
Never are the angels referred to as the literal sons of God. They are sons of God in the sense that they have no like ancestors. Adam himself is called the son of God in Luke 3:38 because he came directly from God.
Luke 2:…39 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Me: We are called the sons of man because we have human ancestors and are not a direct creation of God. Adam means man. We are called the sons of man because we have human ancestors that date bck to Adam and are not a direct creation of God.Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man (H120) is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/120.htm
120. adam: man, mankind
Me: We are called the sons of God because we are a direct creation of God and have no ancestors in this regard. We, unlike angels, become like Christ made so much higher than the angels. We “put on Christ” and become adopted sons of God through him. This is not true for angels.Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Jodi said:
When you are asked to do something or not to do something, don’t give your yes or no with a swear.
Not a good sign when someone takes Jesus’s words completely out of context, and uses it to accuse a person of coming from evil.
If someone is so extraordinarily reckless with a passage such as this, sure makes me question anything else they have to say.
My response:
I see. So you do not have to answer a yes or no question because the above verse gives you a technicality that allows you to get off the charge. lol. All we are asking for Jodi is to be honest and clear with us.Obviously you do not have to answer all questions with yes or no as some questions could be inappropriate or not helpful. But if a person does not ever answer that way, then they are not being completely honest right? Below is an explanation as to why we want this level of honesty in Heaven Net. Besides better flkowing discuissions based on points being discussed that are helpful to readers, it has to do with what scripture says. Take a look at these three points:
- ALWAYS be ready to give an answer for the things that you believe. I do not believe you guys respect that.
- Let your yes be yes and no be no. This is true and was applied to the area of oaths because the subject was oaths at that time. That never negates it being true when asked a good question that requires a yes or no question. If you cannot speak plainly about what you believe and you cannot answer simple yes or no questions regarding your teachings, then obviously we wonder what you are hiding. A good question that leads to exposing an error should not be ignored. It will never work out for you if you do not face good scrutiny of your teachings. You should be prepared to answer that which you believe and especially because you teach it. Surely this is in your own interest to do so.
- ANswering fair yes and no questions is actually part of the rules of this forum, so people can get to to the bottom of one’s teaching. Render unto God what is God’s render unto Heaven Net what is Heaven Net’s. Simply said, obey the rules. Do not be a rebel.
Your statement above tells me that you are not interested in being fully honest with us, but want to be allowed to give a politicians answer when it suits. Yes and no answers are hard for those whose hearts are not true. They hate them because it cast light on their answers and leaves them with no comeback when they are wrong and are forced to humble themselves and learn something new. And what is wrong with that anyway? It seems some lack confidence in their own teachings because they cannot handle direct scrutiny. Like the Devil, some prefer endless detail whereby there are many opportunities to avoid answering good questions that expose error.
Jodi, I have given you three reasons for being honest enough to answer questions accurately. Even if you can reason away in your own mind two of the above reasons, even one reason is still good enough to get a fair response from you. And remember this is not a burdensome request. In fact it is light because we are not asking you for a lot of your time. Further, we are also subject to the same thing.
Jodi, here is a yes or no question to test whether you are willing to be honest with us.
Will you begin to answer yes or no to yes no questions in this forum?
If I get no answer or a direct no to the question, then I know you are not prepared to give clear reasons to what it is you believe and teach. If that is the case, then of course some here will be suspicious of you. That would be inline with the fruit you expect from a false teacher. Search your heart and you know this to be true. A false teacher would never allow simple yes and no answers when their teaching is being scrutinized. Whilst this does not prove beyond reasonable doubt that you are a false teacher, it certainly is a sign.
TC said,
YOU: Never are the angels referred to as the literal sons of God. They are sons of God in the sense that they have no like ancestors. Adam himself is called the son of God in Luke 3:38 because he came directly from God.
ME: Adam is called a son of God because he directly came from God true. Jesus, and those resurrected at his return, and the celestial angels are ALL Sons of God.
Angles are the Son of God as they do not sin, and they do not die because of it.
Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
The word children here is Huios which means SON
When you are born of God, born of His Spirit and His seed remains in you, you cannot sin, and if you do not sin you are not worthy of death.
The celestial angels we read about in scripture are fulfilling God’s will, God knows that they will follow His will because they are incapable of sin.
Hi TC,
YOU: We are called the sons of man because we have human ancestors and are not a direct creation of God. Adam means man. We are called the sons of man because we have human ancestors that date bck to Adam and are not a direct creation of God.
ME: How about we add, that God did in fact create man in His own image, and in order to be made into His image one must be born of His Spirit, the law does nothing for us, we are nothing without God’s Spirit in us. Receiving the fullness of God’s Spirit, also referred to as being born of God and having His seed remain in you, equates to you being in his image of righteousness, unable to sin. Jesus was born of God’s Spirit unable to sin but he was still able to be tempted, God is not able to be tempted. When Jesus was raised from the dead incorruptible, he no longer had a weak body that could tempt him. Jesus having been raised in glory, power, incorruptible completed him being made into the image of God the image God had planned for mankind when He created man. A man made perfect in God’s own image, is one who is righteous, unable to sin, and unable to be tempted having eternal life. We are to become what Jesus is TC, a perfected human with eternal life, the Second Adam a heavenly man.
Don’t forget the Son of God is a perfect man the full measure and stature of an anointing (Being born of God’s Spirit)
Don’t forget Jesus is the son of David and is said to be a Son of God ACCORDING to God’s Spirit.
Don’t forget Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren, which was a promise God gave to David concerning his son, and David knew he was one of those brethren where God would not leave his soul in the grave but restore his life.
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
You sin you are deserving of death. Haven’t you ever wondered TC, why the celestial messengers are said by Jesus to not die, and we will become like them in that manner in the resurrection? Angels don’t die because they have been born of God and thus they don’t sin.
Hi Jodi,
You quoted Me: Never are the angels referred to as the literal sons of God. They are sons of God in the sense that they have no like ancestors. Adam himself is called the son of God in Luke 3:38 because he came directly from God.
You: Adam is called a son of God because he directly came from God true. Jesus, and those resurrected at his return, and the celestial angels are ALL Sons of God. Angles are the Son of God as they do not sin, and
The celestial angels we read about in scripture are fulfilling God’s will, God knows that they will follow His will because they are incapable of sin. they do not die because of it.Me: The second part of your statements are totally false.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the (YHWH), and Satan came also among them. 7 And (YHWH) said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered (YHWH), and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Me: Satan was among the sons of God that presented himself with them. Did he not sin and is still called A son of God. Was he not called the son of God before he sinned? So a son of God in reference to an angel can and did sin.
Ezk 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Me: Jodi, you are wrong. Angels did sin, will sin but will not die. Lucifer was perfect until he sinned. ALL the angels were called the sons of God before the physical creation. A lot of them rebelled against God. This is sin whereas there was no sin prior.
1 Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?…
Me: We will judge angels and keep them on the straight path. Christ DID NOT DIE FOR ANY OF THE ANGELS.
You:
Luke 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
The word children here is Huios which means SON.
Me: The children of the resurrection are NOT ANGELS. “They are God’s children” pertain to the first part of the verse ”and they can no longer die”. They can longer die suggest that they had died. In this respect they are like angels AFTER THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD. This verse pertains to the saints as the previous verse testifies to and stated directly below. .
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead…So,
Luke 20:36 and they (the resurrected saint) can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They (the resurrected saints) are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.
Christ did not die for the angels.
You: When you are born of God, born of His Spirit and His seed remains in you, you cannot sin, and if you do not sin you are not worthy of death.
Me: When saints are baptized of the spirit by the resurrection from the dead, then they cannot sin and cannot die. Then they are fully the sons of God.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God…16 The Spirit (holy spirit) itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Me: We can and do sin now if we follow the flesh. We can and do fall if we follow the flesh, that is we follow our spirit and not the holy spirit.
1 Peter 1:24 ForALL flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
Me: All flesh includes the flesh of the Messiah.
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Me: The Messiah does not have a physical body anymore. He has a body of the holy spirit. He is the son of God…of man.
Hi Jodi,
You quoted me: We are called the sons of man because we have human ancestors and are not a direct creation of God. Adam means man. We are called the sons of man because we have human ancestors that date bck to Adam and are not a direct creation of God.
Me: I will just respond only to the relevant parts of your post to the discussion at hand..
You:
We are to become what Jesus is TC, a perfected human with eternal life, the Second Adam a heavenly man.
Don’t forget the Son of God is a perfect man the full measure and stature of an anointing (Being born of God’s Spirit)
Don’t forget Jesus is the son of David and is said to be a Son of God ACCORDING to God’s Spirit.Me: NO!
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one…The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.Me: The Jews understood that Christ was called himself the Son of God and thus God. You seem not able to understand this
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power…28…that God may be all in all (John 10:30 above).
Me: We have a spirit aspect to our mind when we are born of the spirit. Adam died to this spirit aspect. It can only be regenerated by being born of the spirit of God. Otherwise we are dead to it.
Example:
Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead (spiritually) bury their dead (spiritually and physically).Me: God is two dimensional: invisible and his expression in the audible and visible.
1 Cor 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Me: The spirit is the seed that gives life and character to the body. God is a spirit. God gives himself a body. That body is Christ, and by extension, since we are of the body of Christ, the church and then the rest of humanity or the second fruits.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Me: The spiritual aspect of God and the human aspect of God comprise one person.
All comments within the parenthesis in the last two posts are mine.
Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE LORD.
Me: Actually this is a prophecy. God calls things that are not as if they are (Romans 4:16).
Hi All,
Evidence that the Book of Enoch
The quotes from the book of Enoch are virtually the same from the Masoritic text whereas the Septuagint is more different.
The council of Nicaea removed the book of Enoch as not being inspired. Their leader was Constantine, a pagan that wanted to bring together the Roman Empire into one religious system so there would be unity.Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Me: Enoch prophesized from the Book of Enoch.This book 1 of Enoch was preserved in the ETHIOPIA version which dates back thousand of years. This is not true for books 2 and 3 that were polluted by groups like the Essence and Gnostics that was extant during the time of the Messiah. Jude encourages us to read the book of Enoch.
1 Esdras (Greek: Ἔσδρας Αʹ), also Greek Esdras, Greek Ezra, or 3 Esdras, is an ancient Greek version of the biblical Book of Ezra in use among the early church, and many modern Christians with varying degrees of canonicity. First Esdras is substantially the same as Masoretic Ezra.
Me: 41:39 minutes into video: The just and the wicket shall have some understanding of the
2 Esdras 14 (RSV) 45 Then when the forty days were completed, the Most High said to me, “Make public the ones you wrote first so that the worthy and unworthy may read them. 46 But keep the last seventy so that you may transmit them to the wise among your people. 47 In these are the fountains of understanding, the source of wisdom, and the river of knowledge.”Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
Me: I believe that Noah also has already come in the form of the book of Noah.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Me: The 24 books (Jewish form) are the 39 books (protestant form) of the OT. The wicket and just agree on these books. But the righteous gains understand because of the rest of them, although even some of the righteous reject these books because someone had told then to.
Apocrypha: 1 Esdras
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/es1.htmApocrypha: 2 Esdras
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/es2.htmHi All,
Young’s Literal Translation
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walketh habitually with God, and he is not, for God hath (used 3947. laqach ) him.Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Me: Enoch had not ascended into heaven and then returned. I believe book was to be seeked after and understood in the last days.
Hi All,
100% PROOF!!! The Book of Enoch was NOT Removed from The Bible!!!
Me: The KJV was not created by the Roman Catholic Church. It was done by Protestants in protest. They went back to the original Greek and Hebrew languages.
Is the Book of Enoch- lost scripture purposefully excluded by the RC church?
Three versions of the book of Enoch
1 Enoch or Ethiopic version: It is Christ centre. It has more on Christ than any other literature before the NT. It dates back to at least 300 BC. It is the based on the original writing of Enoch and is the reliable source. Contents of it are in the dead sea scrolls.
11 Enoch or Salvonic Enoch dates back to the latter part of the first century AD. It is more Judaic in nature than Christian.
111 Enoch dates back to between 500 and 600 AD. It is highly esoteric and mystical.The Defense For The Book Of Enoch
Lecture on Enoch & The Watchers by Dr Michael Heiser
The Seven Archangels in the Book of Enoch: 7 Eyes and Spirits of GodTHE NEPHILIM
All Bible quotes are from the World English Bible unless otherwise noted
http://www.commontruth.com/Nephilim.htmlHi All,
Quote: The Council of Nicaea was the first council in the history of the Christian church that was intended to address the entire body of believers. It was convened by the emperor Constantine to resolve the controversy of Arianism, a doctrine that held that Christ was not divine but was a created being.
Me: You address the Book of Enoch as an advocate of the worship of false God? None of Israelites worshiped these giants; in fact they were afraid of them? .
God will destroy these giants, they will not rise. He did not create them.
Young’s Literal Translation
Isa 26: O Jehovah our God, lords have ruled us besides Thee, Only, by Thee we make mention of Thy name. 14 Dead — they live not, Rephaim (nephilim), they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory.
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-The-Book-of-Enoch-removed-from-the-BibleBecause it was held as canon at one time only to later be disregarded for personal reasons. Christianity or at least the concept was around before Christ. The book of Enoch is an excellent example because it ties the Old Testament with the New Testament almost perfectly. Many things preached in the book of Enoch were taught by Jesus and his apostles.
The biggest reason the Book of Enoch was dismissed was due to the Trinity. When the council of big wigs got together to decide what books should be canon it wasn’t always an issue of provenance but doctrine. The majority wanted to push the trinity concept and this would be literally impossible if they kept the book of Enoch.
You will hear many apologetics to explain away this book. Things like: “Even though Jude quotes the Book of Enoch we don’t know that he felt it was Canon or inspired much like Paul quoting other works of fiction” – This is silly because the context certainly shows Jude felt it was inspired and Paul’s reference to other non biblical works, in context, show he did not think the non biblical works he was quoting from were inspired as he was using them as examples or illustrations to his own message.
There are many things in the New Testament that can not be found in the Old Testament but they can be found in the book of Enoch. Jude’s quote is not the only reference to the book and many of the apostles explain examples of what is taught in the book of Enoch, to me, proving that this book was a great influence to Christianity.http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/the-book-of-enoch.html
Quote: This was the beginnings of the religious system which Israel fought so fiercely against throughout its early existence as a nation.Hi All,
Quote: The Council of Nicaea was the first council in the history of the Christian church that was intended to address the entire body of believers. It was convened by the emperor Constantine to resolve the controversy of Arianism, a doctrine that held that Christ was not divine but was a created being.
Me: You address the Book of Enoch as an advocate of the worship of false God? None of Israelites worshiped these giants; in fact they were afraid of them? .
God will destroy these giants, they will not rise. He did not create them.Young’s Literal Translation
Isa 26: O Jehovah our God, lords have ruled us besides Thee, Only, by Thee we make mention of Thy name. 14 Dead — they live not, Rephaim (nephilim), they rise not, Therefore Thou hast inspected and dost destroy them, Yea, thou destroyest all their memory.https://www.quora.com/Why-was-The-Book-of-Enoch-removed-from-the-Bible
Because it was held as canon at one time only to later be disregarded for personal reasons. Christianity or at least the concept was around before Christ. The book of Enoch is an excellent example because it ties the Old Testament with the New Testament almost perfectly. Many things preached in the book of Enoch were taught by Jesus and his apostles.
The biggest reason the Book of Enoch was dismissed was due to the Trinity. When the council of big wigs got together to decide what books should be canon it wasn’t always an issue of provenance but doctrine. The majority wanted to push the trinity concept and this would be literally impossible if they kept the book of Enoch.
You will hear many apologetics to explain away this book. Things like: “Even though Jude quotes the Book of Enoch we don’t know that he felt it was Canon or inspired much like Paul quoting other works of fiction” – This is silly because the context certainly shows Jude felt it was inspired and Paul’s reference to other non biblical works, in context, show he did not think the non biblical works he was quoting from were inspired as he was using them as examples or illustrations to his own message.
There are many things in the New Testament that can not be found in the Old Testament but they can be found in the book of Enoch. Jude’s quote is not the only reference to the book and many of the apostles explain examples of what is taught in the book of Enoch, to me, proving that this book was a great influence to Christianity.http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/the-book-of-enoch.html
Quote: This was the beginnings of the religious system which Israel fought so fiercely against throughout its early existence as a nation.Hi TC,
I hope we can discuss the word Satan. The Hebrew word for ADVERSARY is phonetically pronounced SAW-TAWN.
The VERY FIRST use of the word saw-tawn in the OT is in regards to God being saw-tawn through His angel unto man.
Numbers 22:22 But God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him…32 The angel of the LORD said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out as an adversary, because your way was contrary to me.
The next example is of men-armies
I Samuel 29:4 But the commanders of the Philistines were angry with him, and the commanders of the Philistines said to him, “Make the man go back, that he may return to his place where * you have assigned him, and do not let him go down to battle with us, or in the battle he may become an adversary to us. For with what could this man make himself acceptable to his lord? Would it not be with the heads of these men?
The third example is also of men
2 Samuel 19:22 David then said, “What have I to do with you, O sons of Zeruiah, that you should this day be an adversary to me? Should any man be put to death in Israel today? For do I not know that I am king over Israel today?”
Fourth-men
1 Kings 5:2 Then Solomon sent word to Hiram, saying, 3 “You know that David my father was unable * to build a house for the name of the LORD his God because * of the wars which surrounded him, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet. 4 “But now the LORD my God has given me rest on every side; there is neither adversary nor misfortune.
Fifth -This is where things get interesting, God raises up human adversaries against another man
I Kings 11:14 Then the LORD raised up an adversary to Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was of the royal line in Edom…23 God also raised up another adversary to him, Rezon the son of Eliada, who had fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah….25 So he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, along with the evil that Hadad did; and he abhorred Israel and reigned over Aram.
So far we have seen saw-tawn in scripture 8 times, none of them equate to a fallen evil angel. Then we see the translators use Satan for the first time.
1 Chronicles 21:1 Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the princes of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan, and bring me word that I may know their number.”
The scriptures up unto this point have discussed men and armies of men being adversaries to man, we have even seen that God raises up adversaries. An ADVERSARY provokes David to number his men. David feared men and their armies, we know he prayed a lot to God to protect him from his enemies. I am suppose to all of a sudden believe that the SAW-TAWN in 1 Chronicles is a fallen angel standing up against Israel and making David count the number of his men who drew sword? There is absolutely NO evidence in the passage that the adversary is some celestial wicked entity who has supernatural powers to do evil.
Pslams 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
TC, don’t you realize that Jews that went whoring after other gods, meant that they had FALSE beliefs about gods? What do beliefs about gods pertain to? Blessing and Cursing is what they pertain to.
Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
The book of Enoch says,
- 8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits (fallen angels) and flesh (human women), shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from women, and from the holy Watchers (fallen angels) is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. 10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling. 11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger, and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.
The book of Enoch is nothing but Jewish FABLES absolute LIES, it turns God’s Holy Angels that bring forth God’s will and turns them directly into rebel wicked spirit beings. It is DIRECTLY against God’s word, that HE ALONE brings forth darkness and creates evil upon men, to punish and instruct them.
In Genesis 6 the Giants are HUMAN and they DIE in the flood as humans. What the book of Enoch teachings is absolute LIES, FABLES.
TC instead of believing God’s CLEAR WORD that there is NO ONE ELSE, you turn to a book of fables. A book written by self-righteous Jews speaking lies about God’s righteous angels.
After Chronicles the next time the word saw-tawn appears is in the book of Job.
One can debate about the Sons of God in Job presenting themselves before the LORD, does it mean they were in God’s literal presence? If they were in the LORD’S presence literally, then I would argue that according to the Laws of God, they would all be righteous, one cannot be in the literal presence of God unless they are PURE in His sight.
One thing that is NOT up for debate is what transpires in the book of Job. We see there is an adversary to Job, this adversary to Job does what God says, Job attributes his cursing as coming from the hand of the LORD. The adversary concerning Job was right and Job came out on top having grown in righteousness. There is NO account in the book of Job of a REBEL wicked angels that is against doing God’s will. There is NO account of a Son of God SINNING against God in the book of Job TC.
2 Samuel 24: 15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough! Now relax your hand!”
There are NO wicked spirits or fallen angels that give knowledge to man, or that incite man to do evil. God gives man knowledge and wisdom, the Book of Enoch speaks lies denying what God Himself says He has given to man, wisdom of workmanship. Man is said repeatedly to sin from his OWN imagination, his own heart, that it is he himself that devices wickedness.
God was SORRY in Genesis that He made HUMANS because their imaginations were wicked, the the thoughts of their own heart was wicked. God brought the flood to DESTROY them, not so that the giants could die and then become wicked spirits to go around giving wisdom and influencing man to do evil. Just absolute FOOLISHNESS is the book of Enoch on so many levels.
Hi Jodi,
You: Adam is called a son of God because he directly came from God true. Jesus, and those resurrected at his return, and the celestial angels are ALL Sons of God. Angles are the Son of God as they do not sin, and
The celestial angels we read about in scripture are fulfilling God’s will, God knows that they will follow His will because they are incapable of sin. they do not die because of it.I had said:
Ezk 28:14 Thou art the ANNOINTED cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast PERFECT in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.Me: Here I showed you that angels can sin and Ezk 28:14 is an example of a high ranking angel that sinned afterwards. This anointed Cherub was perfect in all his ways before he sinned.
This should be the end of it. Instead you want to go on a wild goose chase to try to prove you are not wrong. You should explain Ezk 28:14 first.
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