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Quote (jammin @ Mar. 25 2012,21:58) to end this topic…………….
This topic isn't going anywhere, jammin.
You still have too much to learn for me to give up on you now, young Padawan.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,22:39) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,21:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,22:03) Kathi and jammin, I'm waiting for your 5 answers to the post at the bottom of page 5.
(I've gone back and numbered them after Nick showed me he couldn't count.
Just kidding, Nick)
Mike,
First we need you to get this, that firstborn does not translate as first created and Rev 3:14 does not say 'beginning creation' and therefore cannot be used to prove that He was the beginning creation.Do you get this, Mike?
Kathi,Are you saying that if someone called the first angel God ever created “the firstborn of all creation”, that it COULDN'T POSSIBLY mean that angel was the first angel God ever created?
ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SAYING THAT?
ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT IS A COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE IMPOSSIBILITY?ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SAYING THAT THE PHRASE “BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD” CANNOT POSSIBLY REFER TO THE FIRST THING GOD EVER CREATED?
YES, we understand it differently. Me, because I read the words as they are written. You, because you MUST understand plainly written words in an oddball, abstract way to keep your dream of Jesus being from eternity.
Let it go and answer the 5 questions in the last post on page 5 please. Because you will never convince anyone that it CAN'T POSSIBLY mean exactly what millions of people have understood it to mean for thousands of years.
Mike,
I'm saying that the first created angel would not at all be called the firstborn angel of all creation. In fact, the Bible doesn't say it. It doesn't call the first created man the firstborn man of all creation either.Quote ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SAYING THAT? ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT IS A COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE IMPOSSIBILITY?It is IMPOSSIBLE for firstborn to mean first created. It is not impossible for something that was created first to be appointed as a firstborn but to be literally a firstborn it is impossible for firstborn to mean first created.
Quote YES, we understand it differently. Me, because I read the words as they are written. You, because you MUST understand plainly written words in an oddball, abstract way to keep your dream of Jesus being from eternity. You read the words that aren't there and join them to the words that are and build your fallacy on them.
For the third example of you putting down words that aren't there…'by' is not in the Greek but there you write it as if it were.
Quote ARE YOU SERIOUSLY SAYING THAT THE PHRASE “BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD” CANNOT POSSIBLY REFER TO THE FIRST THING GOD EVER CREATED? If you change the word to 'of' as it appears in all the translations correctly, my answer would be that it does not insist on meaning the first thing God ever created. You are dogmatic that it does but that is where you error.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,23:02) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,21:58) Mike, It is absurd since no one questions that John the Baptist is created even though scripture attests that both he and Jesus were conceived.
Thank you for that, Kerwin.Kathi, did you hear? John was also both “conceived” and “born”, yet he was still a creation of his God.
Just like every single one of us.
Mike,
Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary? If so, that which He was before Mary was not said to be conceived and therefore is not said to have a beginning.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,22:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,21:58) Hi MB,
All men are created.
Jesus Christ is the beginning of the new creation
Okay Nick,Then you also agree with me and Pierre and Kerwin that Jesus was created. That is the question of the thread – thanks for your answer.
MikeI do not think that Nick agreed with us ,what he is really saying is that that Christ is the first born of the dead ,in his own way so to speak,
new creation meaning the reborn ones through the spirit
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,21:53) 1. Who did Peter and John pray to? “The Father”
2. Did they attribute the creation of the heaven, earth, sea,
and EVERYTHING IN THEM to the One they prayed to? YES or NO? Yep3. Who did Peter and John pray through? huh?
4. Is the one they prayed through the servant of the One they prayed to? YES or NO? huh?
5. Does this servant have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in heaven,
earth, or sea that was created by the One they prayed to? what?
1. The scripture says they prayed to “God”, and addressed Him as “Sovereign Lord” and “Lord”. “Father” is not mentioned.2. Correct, the answer is “YES” (or “yep”)
3. Read verse 30 for the answer.
4. Again, the answer is in verse 30 of the NIV translation I quoted.
5. To rephrase: Since Jesus is not the One they prayed to, and the One they prayed to is the One who created the heaven, earth, sea, and EVERYTHING in them, does Jesus have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in them?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,22:07) It is IMPOSSIBLE for firstborn to mean first created.
Wrong. Babel was built by Nimrod. It was the first recorded “kingdom” of the earth, and therefore Nimrod could be said to have been the literal “firstborn of the kings of the earth”.Does that prohibit Nimrod from being a creation? YES or NO? (This is mundane crap again, Kathi)
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,22:07) If you change the word to 'of' as it appears in all the translations correctly, my answer would be that it does not insist on meaning the first thing God ever created. Okay. And I think it DOES mean “first thing God ever created” and you think it DOESN'T mean that.
But we've established that it CAN mean either, right? Good, now let's move on. Because through the other scriptures, I will show you support of MY understranding, while simultaneously showing that YOUR understanding is scripturally impossible.
LET'S MOVE ON, PLEASE. Last post on page 5.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,15:14) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,21:53) 1. Who did Peter and John pray to? “The Father”
2. Did they attribute the creation of the heaven, earth, sea,
and EVERYTHING IN THEM to the One they prayed to? YES or NO? Yep3. Who did Peter and John pray through? huh?
4. Is the one they prayed through the servant of the One they prayed to? YES or NO? huh?
5. Does this servant have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in heaven,
earth, or sea that was created by the One they prayed to? what?
1. The scripture says they prayed to “God”, and addressed Him as “Sovereign Lord” and “Lord”. “Father” is not mentioned.2. Correct, the answer is “YES” (or “yep”)
3. Read verse 30 for the answer.
4. Again, the answer is in verse 30 of the NIV translation I quoted.
5. To rephrase: Since Jesus is not the One they prayed to, and the One they prayed to is the One who created the heaven, earth, sea, and EVERYTHING in them, does Jesus have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in them?
Hi Mike,1) Do you disagree that thats who they were praying to?
2) Yea
3) That's talking about miracles.
4) Again, that's talking about miracles.
5) I believe Jesus came to earth willingly.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2012,22:14) Mike I do not think that Nick agreed with us ,what he is really saying is that…………….
I don't really care for the purposes of this thread, Pierre. Kerwin, Nick, you, and I all agree that Jesus was created.I don't want this to become a pre-existent thread, or a “who is the Word” thread.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,22:12) Mike,
Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary? If so, that which He was before Mary was not said to be conceived and therefore is not said to have a beginning.
Not yet, Kathi. Micah 5 is coming soon enough. Right now I'm waiting for your 5 answers to the last post on page 5.Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,22:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,15:14) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,21:53) 1. Who did Peter and John pray to? “The Father”
2. Did they attribute the creation of the heaven, earth, sea,
and EVERYTHING IN THEM to the One they prayed to? YES or NO? Yep3. Who did Peter and John pray through? huh?
4. Is the one they prayed through the servant of the One they prayed to? YES or NO? huh?
5. Does this servant have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in heaven,
earth, or sea that was created by the One they prayed to? what?
1. The scripture says they prayed to “God”, and addressed Him as “Sovereign Lord” and “Lord”. “Father” is not mentioned.2. Correct, the answer is “YES” (or “yep”)
3. Read verse 30 for the answer.
4. Again, the answer is in verse 30 of the NIV translation I quoted.
5. To rephrase: Since Jesus is not the One they prayed to, and the One they prayed to is the One who created the heaven, earth, sea, and EVERYTHING in them, does Jesus have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in them?
Hi Mike,1) Do you disagree that thats who they were praying to?
2) Yea
3) That's talking about miracles.
4) Again, that's talking about miracles.
5) I believe Jesus came to earth willingly.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Okay Ed.You have demonstrated that you would rather be difficult than answer 5 simple questions. I have no more use for you. Thank you for your time.
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2012,10:07) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,22:02) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 26 2012,09:52) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2012,21:50) To all, This is an absurd thread which is why I also started one asking if John the Baptist is created.
Kerwinnow that you have given your opinion on this tread ,what is your opinion on your own question
Pierre,I take it for granted that both Jesus and John the Baptist are created; especially as Scripture declares they were both conceived in their respective mother's wombs.
kerwinwhat is the meaning of your word CREATION ??
here is mine;
cre·a·tion (kr-shn)
n.
1.
a. The act of creating.
b. The fact or state of having been created.
2. The act of investing with a new office or title.
3.
a. The world and all things in it.
b. All creatures or a class of creatures.
4. Creation The divine act by which, according to various religious and philosophical traditions, the world was brought into existence.
5. An original product of human invention or artistic imaginationso what you say
Pierre,The fact or state of having been created.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 26 2012,10:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,23:02) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,21:58) Mike, It is absurd since no one questions that John the Baptist is created even though scripture attests that both he and Jesus were conceived.
Thank you for that, Kerwin.Kathi, did you hear? John was also both “conceived” and “born”, yet he was still a creation of his God.
Just like every single one of us.
Mike,
Did Jesus exist before He was conceived in Mary? If so, that which He was before Mary was not said to be conceived and therefore is not said to have a beginning.
Kathi,Ecclesiastes 12:7
King James Version (KJV)7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Luke 23:46
King James Version (KJV)46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
As it was in conception so it was in death.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,15:29) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,22:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,15:14) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,21:53) 1. Who did Peter and John pray to? “The Father”
2. Did they attribute the creation of the heaven, earth, sea,
and EVERYTHING IN THEM to the One they prayed to? YES or NO? Yep3. Who did Peter and John pray through? huh?
4. Is the one they prayed through the servant of the One they prayed to? YES or NO? huh?
5. Does this servant have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in heaven,
earth, or sea that was created by the One they prayed to? what?
1. The scripture says they prayed to “God”, and addressed Him as “Sovereign Lord” and “Lord”. “Father” is not mentioned.2. Correct, the answer is “YES” (or “yep”)
3. Read verse 30 for the answer.
4. Again, the answer is in verse 30 of the NIV translation I quoted.
5. To rephrase: Since Jesus is not the One they prayed to, and the One they prayed to is the One who created the heaven, earth, sea, and EVERYTHING in them, does Jesus have any choice but to be one of the “EVERYTHING” in them?
Hi Mike,1) Do you disagree that thats who they were praying to?
2) Yea
3) That's talking about miracles.
4) Again, that's talking about miracles.
5) I believe Jesus came to earth willingly.
God bless
Ed J
Okay Ed.You have demonstrated that you would rather be difficult than answer 5 simple questions. I have no more use for you. Thank you for your time.
Hi Mike,You can't pressure others into believing as you do, you
will have to do it with Scripture, which you don't have.
Let me know when you try to use another verse; OK?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,10:04) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,22:02) Pierre, I take it for granted that both Jesus and John the Baptist are created; especially as Scripture declares they were both conceived in their respective mother's wombs.
Then for the purposes of this thread, you, I, and Pierre all agree that Jesus was created.Let's keep the “when” out of this thread if we can.
Mike,I will strive to remain on topic.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,22:40) Hi MB,
The man Jesus was created.
the Son was begotten ps2
Nick,You were begotten by your father, yet you are also a creation of God.
Why do you and Kathi think they are exclusive terms? As Kerwin has pointed out, being “conceived” doesn't prohibit one from being created. Nor does being “begotten” or “born” or “brought forth”, etc.
All things in existence are creations of God – whether or not they are also begotten, conceived, or born.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,22:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,10:04) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 25 2012,22:02) Pierre, I take it for granted that both Jesus and John the Baptist are created; especially as Scripture declares they were both conceived in their respective mother's wombs.
Then for the purposes of this thread, you, I, and Pierre all agree that Jesus was created.Let's keep the “when” out of this thread if we can.
Mike,I will strive to remain on topic.
Thanks Kerwin.Can you answer the questions in the last post on page 5 for me? (They are all one answer, simple questions.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,23:24) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,22:07) It is IMPOSSIBLE for firstborn to mean first created.
Wrong. Babel was built by Nimrod. It was the first recorded “kingdom” of the earth, and therefore Nimrod could be said to have been the literal “firstborn of the kings of the earth”.Does that prohibit Nimrod from being a creation? YES or NO? (This is mundane crap again, Kathi)
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,22:07) If you change the word to 'of' as it appears in all the translations correctly, my answer would be that it does not insist on meaning the first thing God ever created. Okay. And I think it DOES mean “first thing God ever created” and you think it DOESN'T mean that.
But we've established that it CAN mean either, right? Good, now let's move on. Because through the other scriptures, I will show you support of MY understranding, while simultaneously showing that YOUR understanding is scripturally impossible.
LET'S MOVE ON, PLEASE. Last post on page 5.
Mike,
Show me where Nimrod is called the firstborn of the kings of the earth. If scripture doesn't call him that then there is no point discussing it. That is when it starts getting crazy and completely a game of imagination.Quote But we've established that it CAN mean either, right? Good, now let's move on. Good, you have lost that verse as a proof text that Jesus was created. Finally!
Now you have to admit that the greek word translated as firstborn does not translate as first created. We are not ready to move on until you admit that, Mike.
Hi MB,
So you do concede that the conception of Jesus was not the fulfillment of Ps2?
That his partaking of flesh was not his conception?
Conception is a beginning.Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 25 2012,22:43) Hi Mike, You can't pressure others into believing as you do, you
will have to do it with Scripture, which you don't have.
Let me know when you try to use another verse; OK?
Ed,The point of Acts 4 is very simple. It depicts who exactly created the heavens, earth, sea, and everything in them. That One is “God”.
Then, in verse 30, it clearly lists Jesus as someone OTHER THAN the God who created the heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them.
If Jesus is not the One who created all those things, than he has no choice but to be one of those things that was created by the One they prayed to – the One who DID create all those things.
It was a very simple concept to grasp, and I'm sorry you were unable to grasp it.
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