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Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,19:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,19:57) Kathi, When you were born, you were created. You became a new, INDIVIDUAL creation by being born.
The firstBORN of the flock is still a CREATION of God.
Mike,
I existed before I was born by about 9 months.
Kathi,Read the word I capped. Here, I've made it big and bold for you this time.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,19:06) Do we really need to go over this again? Have you missed not talking about this?
Not at all. Your reasoning bores me because I can sense it's out of desperation.BUT………………………
We are about to discuss many scriptures besides Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15 in this thread. Those two over-discussed scriptures were just to get the thread rolling.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,19:31) Hi MB,
So you do not know if it is the old creation or the new?
Well, let's see Nick,He is the firstborn of every creature BECAUSE all things were then brought into existence through him – things in heaven and on earth. So you tell me. Are all things in heaven and earth “new”?
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 25 2012,19:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2012,20:03) That's EXACTLY what I said, Kathi. I said that EVEN IN situations like David's, where “firstborn” wasn't literal, but used to show preeminence, he was STILL a member OF the group of which he was appointed the firstborn.
Mike,
He wasn't appointed as the 'firstborn of all kings'. Scripture doesn't say those words. This is what it says:“I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
He was made the firstborn of God, not the firstborn of kings. It doesn't say that “I also shall make him the firstborn of the kings” does it!
You are in error, Kathi.The Hebrew says:
also I firstborn make highest of kings of earth
The fact that certain translations add the word “MY” before “firstborn” is irrelevant, because it's not what the scripture says, nor is it what is meant.
It means that David was appointed as the firstborn (preeminent) of all the kings of the earth.
Hi MB,
First and last and firstborn born from the dead relates to the NEW CREATION in that book.
The new creation is according to SPIRIT and not dust.
The old will be burnt up.[2peter]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2012,19:02) Hi MB,
You mean the new creation?
Yes
rev 3.14
Nif Christ is a new creation ,why would it be necessary to change it ???what was wrong with his old nature???
was he in need like us to be reborn from sins and so be saved by whom by himself ,because after all he is the one that God as chosen for us to be saved through
Quote (jammin @ Mar. 25 2012,19:23) King James Version (KJV) 13It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.
Actually, you help my point jammin.IF this verse wasn't metaphoric, and IF death was a real living being with sons of his own, then YES, the firstborn of death would belong to the same group that death belonged to.
As you say in the other thread, Son of God has the nature of God, right? Well, the firstborn of death would also have the nature of death. And the firstborn of creation would have the nature of a created thing.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2012,19:37) Hi MB,
First and last and firstborn born from the dead relates to the NEW CREATION in that book.
Show me the word “new” in either Rev 3:14 or Col 1:15, Nick.Unless you can, then you are allowing yourself to add your own personal beliefs into what is actually written down for us.
Nick,
Only if absolutely nothing existed in heaven or on earth until Jesus was resurrected.
Is that the case?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,11:50) Pierre, Good post and quite right, my friend.
Nick and Ed, (1)do you believe Jesus was created? If so, you are arguing against the choir here. This thread was for people like jammin, Carmel, Lightenup, etc., that believe Jesus has always existed.
(2)Do YOU two think Jesus has always existed?
Hi Mike,1) Jesus was conceived of the HolySpirit. (Matt 1:20)
2) “HE saith, I came down from heaven” (John 6:38)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike, you know what they say about the word assume, right? (ass: u-me)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,12:33)
We are about to discuss many scriptures besides Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15 in this thread. Those two over-discussed scriptures were just to get the thread rolling.Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;G-746 ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
(Strong's) Definition: magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.Hey, that's kinda sounds like this verse…
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Mike, are you going to ignore this post?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,12:42) Actually, you help my point jammin.
Perhaps, but my last post certainly doesn't!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,11:57)
When you were born, you were created. You became a new, INDIVIDUAL creation by being born.
Hi Mike,This is NOT the point you are trying to make in this thread; or is it?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Colter @ Mar. 26 2012,20:01) The Word/Son was with God the Father in the beginning, that means eternal. If there was a “new creation” if was when the human and divine Son became the fertilized egg in Mary's womb. Having returned to his place on high, the Son now has the human experience added to his being.
Colter
colterGe 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.
Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
Ge 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
witch of God statement are wrong
?or is it you
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,12:42) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 25 2012,19:23) King James Version (KJV) 13It shall devour the strength of his skin: even the firstborn of death shall devour his strength.
Actually, you help my point jammin.IF this verse wasn't metaphoric, and IF death was a real living being with sons of his own, then YES, the firstborn of death would belong to the same group that death belonged to.
As you say in the other thread, Son of God has the nature of God, right? Well, the firstborn of death would also have the nature of death. And the firstborn of creation would have the nature of a created thing.
col 1.15
also in rev 3.14
refers to supremacy of Christ. your logic has nothing to do with this verse.
he is talking about the supremacy of Christ!
why dont you read your bible
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,Quote (Colter @ Mar. 25 2012,20:01) The Word/Son was with God the Father in the beginning, that means eternal.
Why Colter? Does the word “beginning” always mean “from eternity” in scripture?Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 26 2012,13:02) Hi Mike, you know what they say about the word assume, right? (ass: u-me) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2012,12:33)
We are about to discuss many scriptures besides Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15 in this thread. Those two over-discussed scriptures were just to get the thread rolling.Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,
the beginning of the creation of God;G-746 ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: arché
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-khay')
(Strong's) Definition: magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.Hey, that's kinda sounds like this verse…
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Mike, are you going to ignore this post?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Mike?
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