Was Jesus Created?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,01:50)

The Spirit came down as a dove to bear witness to who he is; just as it is written:

I agree, Kerwin.

Jesus was not without Spirit before the Jordan. The dove and declaration by God was simply that: a declaration to those present of who exactly Jesus had been all along, IMO.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Since Jesus was named after his birth
and he was anointed as a Nazarene man
and yet is said to have been in the form of God

you should be able to see spiritually that Jesus Christ in Phil 2 relates to the WORD of God

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 29 2012,13:21)

Logic is logical reasoning and God expects you to use it as he created man as a reasoning creature. Don't you realize that you use logic yourself? Jesus has always been a clean vessel as he did not fall short of the glory of God.

Bravo, Kerwin.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,17:18)

Hi MB, Since Jesus was named after his birth

Luke 2:21
On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2012,20:46)

So you can't show support from those early church father's for your view whatever that is. Then I am not interested…………….

I'm sorry you feel that way Kathi.  I am guided by scriptures, not men.  I do learn much from the secular accounts of men, but I never believe what they wrote until I verify that their statements align with the scriptures.

And unfortunately, there is no scripture to suggest what you believe:  That Jesus dwelled as a sentient being within God from eternity until God brought him to the outside of Himself.

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2012,20:46)

Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Do you seriously think Paul would clearly tell us that God is the HEAD of Jesus in one verse, and then turn around and say that Jesus and God are equal co-Gods and co-Creators in another, Kathi? Paul does just that in 1 Cor 8:6.

So you don't even consider it a minute possibility that, in 1 Cor 8:6, Paul was teaching that all things came from God, who is the HEAD of the one through whom all things came – our Lord Jesus Christ?

In your mind, there is no other option but for Paul to be teaching that the Father AND Jesus are both “God” and “Creator”…………..even though he lists only the Father as the God from whom are all things?

I'm sorry.  I not only disagree with that notion, but can't even see one word in 1 Cor 8 that would lead anyone to that conclusion.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 28 2012,19:12)

Mike, You can't seem to make a distinction between Jesus, according to the flesh, and Jesus who existed before the flesh.

And was Jesus before the flesh in a higher or lower position than the exalted Jesus of today?

In other words, has Jesus stepped DOWN a bunch of notches since fulfilling the will of his God and being exalted to His right hand?

[mikeboll64]

While Acts 17 is still fresh in our minds, I would like to make one more point about it:

Acts 17:24
“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

Who does Jesus say the “Lord of heaven and earth” is?

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

The One known as the “Lord of heaven and earth” is the One who “made the world and everything in it”. Jesus says that One is the Father.

[NickHassan]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2012,10:22)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,17:18) Hi MB, Since Jesus was named after his birth Luke 2:21 On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

Hi MB,
Indeed the angel had told Mary what to name him.

[mikeboll64]

Revelation 4
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,
  to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
  and by your will they were created
  and have their being.”

Revelation 5
1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

And once again, we see that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN “him who sits on the throne”, because Jesus is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of “him who sits on the throne”.

Yet we're told that “him who sits on the throne” is the One who CREATED ALL THINGS.

Once more, if Jesus is NOT the One who CREATED ALL THINGS, then he has no choice but to be one of the things created by “him who sits on the throne”.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2012,12:13)

Revelation 4 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 11 “You are worthy, our Lord and God,   to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things,   and by your will they were created   and have their being.” Revelation 5 1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” 6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And once again, we see that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN “him who sits on the throne”, because Jesus is the Lamb who takes the scroll from the hand of “him who sits on the throne”. Yet we're told that “him who sits on the throne” is the One who CREATED ALL THINGS. Once more, if Jesus is NOT the One who CREATED ALL THINGS, then he has no choice but to be one of the things created by “him who sits on the throne”.

Hi Mike,

If you believe God created all things, then why do you attribute this verse to Jesus?
Col 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all
things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
But the Word was God

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 29 2012,19:36)

Hi Mike, If you believe God created all things, then why do you attribute this verse to Jesus? Col 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Because it IS about Christ, Ed.

The problem is that the Trinitarian translators want to use the word “by” instead of “through”, because even though that word is essentially correct, it is also misleading – causing the reader to think Jesus himself created.  And that's why they use “by” – because that's exactly what they want their readers to think.

Here is the NWT:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

This is a better translation, Ed.  Because even as the Trinitarian Tertullian said:

He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

The teaching of the scriptures is that God alone created EVERY SINGLE THING IN EXISTENCE.  But……………… Scriptures also teach that He chose to do that THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ.

In your case, He chose to do it through His Son, AND through your parents, AND through your grandparents, AND so on and so on all the way to Adam and Eve. And even though God created you THROUGH many other vessels, He ALONE created Ed J.

[jammin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,06:25)

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,02:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,17:32) Hi Jammin, Does scripture say God became flesh and dwelt among us? NO that is religious tradition speaking again. yes nick GOD became flesh and dwelt among us. not the father, but the son! your doctrine is not in the bible. the bible teaches us that the son, who is God by nature, became flesh and dwelt among us. make your version nick Hi Jammin, Your doctrine is not written. You are writing your own version?

it is written . do you want me to post it?

if i showed u a verse telling that God was made visible in human flesh, will you accept that you are a false teacher??

im talking about the Son and not the father.

agree?

[kerwin]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,08:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,06:25) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,02:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,17:32) Hi Jammin, Does scripture say God became flesh and dwelt among us? NO that is religious tradition speaking again. yes nick GOD became flesh and dwelt among us. not the father, but the son! your doctrine is not in the bible. the bible teaches us that the son, who is God by nature, became flesh and dwelt among us. make your version nick Hi Jammin, Your doctrine is not written. You are writing your own version? it is written . do you want me to post it? if i showed u a verse telling that God was made visible in human flesh, will you accept that you are a false teacher?? im talking about the Son and not the father. agree?

Jammin,

God is revealed in those whom are mature in Jesus Christ as their words, actions, and thoughts are is. It is that goal for which the true students of Christ both yearn and strive.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2012,18:43)

While Acts 17 is still fresh in our minds, I would like to make one more point about it: Acts 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. Who does Jesus say the “Lord of heaven and earth” is? Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. The One known as the “Lord of heaven and earth” is the One who “made the world and everything in it”.  Jesus says that One is the Father.

Mike,

According to this verse, who is our one Lord?

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

According to this verse, who is Lord of all?

Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Do you see, as you compare the verses in your post that I am quoting here with the above two verses, that Jesus and the Father are both referred to as Lord? Yet for us, we are told, there is one Lord and it is not referring to the Father.

However, we know that the Father is Lord also.

Do you think that there is a chance that the statement that for us there is one God, the Father, could also leave room for Jesus being God?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2012,01:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2012,18:43) While Acts 17 is still fresh in our minds, I would like to make one more point about it: Acts 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. Who does Jesus say the “Lord of heaven and earth” is? Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. The One known as the “Lord of heaven and earth” is the One who “made the world and everything in it”.  Jesus says that One is the Father. Mike, According to this verse, who is our one Lord? 1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. According to this verse, who is Lord of all? Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. Do you see, as you compare the verses in your post that I am quoting here with the above two verses, that Jesus and the Father are both referred to as Lord? Yet for us, we are told, there is one Lord and it is not referring to the Father. However, we know that the Father is Lord also. Do you think that there is a chance that the statement that for us there is one God, the Father, could also leave room for Jesus being God?

K

still do not get it

still confused to many personal views

[jammin]

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2012,18:03)

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,08:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,06:25) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,02:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,17:32) Hi Jammin, Does scripture say God became flesh and dwelt among us? NO that is religious tradition speaking again. yes nick GOD became flesh and dwelt among us. not the father, but the son! your doctrine is not in the bible. the bible teaches us that the son, who is God by nature, became flesh and dwelt among us. make your version nick Hi Jammin, Your doctrine is not written. You are writing your own version? it is written . do you want me to post it? if i showed u a verse telling that God was made visible in human flesh, will you accept that you are a false teacher?? im talking about the Son and not the father. agree? Jammin, God is revealed in those whom are mature in Jesus Christ as their words, actions, and thoughts are is.  It is that goal for which the true students of Christ both yearn and strive.

im not talking to you kerwin.

now if you want to talk to me, you may answer first my question.

if i showed a verse that GOD (Christ, the son of GOD) was made visible in human flesh, will you admit that you are a false teacher??

yes or no?

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Wanting to 'get it' is natural but getting something that is supernatural isn't natural. In other words, if we clearly understand something supernatural we have to have supernatural enlightenment. We can't figure this out by determination and earthly wisdom. It is something that needs to be shown us by the Holy Spirit. We do need to seek it as if we are looking for a treasure.

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

God bless,
Kathi

[kerwin]

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,20:28)

Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2012,18:03) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,08:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2012,06:25) Quote (jammin @ Mar. 30 2012,02:18) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2012,17:32) Hi Jammin, Does scripture say God became flesh and dwelt among us? NO that is religious tradition speaking again. yes nick GOD became flesh and dwelt among us. not the father, but the son! your doctrine is not in the bible. the bible teaches us that the son, who is God by nature, became flesh and dwelt among us. make your version nick Hi Jammin, Your doctrine is not written. You are writing your own version? it is written . do you want me to post it? if i showed u a verse telling that God was made visible in human flesh, will you accept that you are a false teacher?? im talking about the Son and not the father. agree? Jammin, God is revealed in those whom are mature in Jesus Christ as their words, actions, and thoughts are is.  It is that goal for which the true students of Christ both yearn and strive. im not talking to you kerwin. now if you want to talk to me, you may answer first my question. if i showed a verse that GOD (Christ, the son of GOD) was made visible in human flesh, will you admit that you are a false teacher?? yes or no?

Jammin,

I did answer your question by pointing out that God is made visible in the flesh of those who are mature in Christ.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 31 2012,13:08)

Pierre, Wanting to 'get it' is natural but getting something that is supernatural isn't natural. In other words, if we clearly understand something supernatural we have to have supernatural enlightenment. We can't figure this out by determination and earthly wisdom. It is something that needs to be shown us by the Holy Spirit. We do need to seek it as if we are looking for a treasure. Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. God bless, Kathi

K

you in your own way are right ,but do not understand it ,

God the master of the universe as made himself known to us through his written word and through his only son Jesus Christ ,

the written word comes from supernatural power ,and the in side understanding need the power of the supernatural that only can be accessed through the true observation of having a true heart

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