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Mikeboll,
You speak as one of the Pharasee class.You study the Scriptures but fail to understand what you read.
Even your 'worldly' view of 'All things' doesn't show you that the senior son is credited with 'All things' and the others are not mentioned.
When an army goes to war, who is said to go to war? The Commander, the Field Marshal, the General…America goes to war against Iraq..
“George Bush goes to war against Sadam Hussain”
This is equivalent to: “God goes to war against Satan”
But how many below God are managing his army? Many. But he has a second…that second is taken from among many and has shown he is better than the rest. He rises to the top rank.
When the war is won, only the one in charge is credited with winning the war. 'For the last is better than the first'…in other words, 'he that is at the last, is the one who will be seen as the winner'.
Who gets the gratest accollade in a relay race? Is it not the one who 'wins' the race, crosses the finishing line…even when there were many others who brought the race to him that he took over from and was seen as the race winner?
What of the others…their parts, in the short presentation, is not shown,..only the winner is shown crossing the line…
Again, in the footrace, what of the others other than the winner, who's name is recorded. Who remembers who came second, third? Only the winner?And further more, over 95% of the deeds of Jesus mentioned by the Apostles pertains to his life after coming as man.
This is why Gene gets his idea that Jesus was not preExistent. I can understand what he is saying…i am not entertaining his arguments, just stating a fact that the New Testament is majorly talking of Jesus as man and risen Christ.
And for this reason also, i say that John calls Jesus 'Begotten' as a reference to his risen state, not preMan state… Romans 1:3-4, clearly shows God calling Jesus 'Begotten' and 'High Priest', which goes fully with all the other references, Hebrews, Ephesians, etc, where Jesus is said to be 'Son of God' and the famous, 'I WILL BE your Father'…God didn't say 'I AM your father' he said, 'I will be to him as a father'…this is what you say when you ADOPT someone….beget them as SPIRITUAL FATHER, 'Today…I have BECOME your father'.And the thread question was already answered but the discussion still goes on:
No, Jesus was not ALWAYS Superior, because at one point he was made LOWER than the Angels…Mikeboll,
What part did 'Lucifer', Satan, play in thecreation of the heavens and earth?
Why did he feel that he, of all creation, if he were thirshally (how do you spell it…third down the line) created through Jesus, claiming the greatest accollade of all, WORSHIP from God's greatest creation…
God's greatest creation? Man?…so what about Jesus?And did Jesus create…how do you say 'through Jesus meaning that Jesus created them but not really because it was actually God that created them?'…Satan, Jesus created Satan…Jesus created Satan…
Through Jesus, an Angel that was 'Perfect', glorious, radiant, beautiful to behold…the direct creation of God through Jesus created a being more glorious than the directly created of God himself…how is that possible?
Satan was more glorious, in fact, 'perfect'…in the day he was created up until sin was found in him…Why did he think he deserved to be worshipped by a creation that he had no hand in bringing into being?
Did Jesus create mankind?
Did Jesus create Adam?
God said, 'Let US make man…'
How about, 'Lets make man…'
Does this now sound like a councilling matter…'I propose to make Man, agreed?', they agreed, so God went ahead and created Man in his image, with (limited amounts of) his nature.The THING that God created through Jesus, he called Man…
Was Man, Adam, called, a 'Thing'?
According to Scripture Yahushua Messiah came the first time as a “suffering servant” I hardly see that this is superior to even a bum on the street.
When the Messiah returns, He will be King over all the earth, untill then HaSatan rules this place.
Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,19:55) According to Scripture Yahushua Messiah came the first time as a “suffering servant” I hardly see that this is superior to even a bum on the street. When the Messiah returns, He will be King over all the earth, untill then HaSatan rules this place.
Leverything that Christ did was superior to any man that ever live on earth.and his sacrifice was ultimate,and final.
Pierre
Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,19:56) Why is everyone on heaven net so confused?
Lsome are not all of them
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 28 2010,13:10) Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,19:55) According to Scripture Yahushua Messiah came the first time as a “suffering servant” I hardly see that this is superior to even a bum on the street. When the Messiah returns, He will be King over all the earth, untill then HaSatan rules this place.
Leverything that Christ did was superior to any man that ever live on earth.and his sacrifice was ultimate,and final.
Pierre
The Messiah's works were profoundly more righteous than any man who has ever lived, but He did not come here to reign supreme, He came to serve! He was made lower than even a bum on the street. And through it all, He remained a humble servant.Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,12:29) No, Jesus was not ALWAYS Superior, because at one point he was made LOWER than the Angels…
JA,You mean the time when he was on earth as one of mankind, who were made lower than the angels?
The time when he ordered demons around and they obeyed? The time when he said he could have called 10,000 angels down to take HIS place if he wanted to? The time when God said “this is my Son, the beloved. Listen to him”?
To which of the angels did God ever say “You are my Son” JA?
Hmmmmmm………..not superior, huh?
mike
Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,20:26) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 28 2010,13:10) Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,19:55) According to Scripture Yahushua Messiah came the first time as a “suffering servant” I hardly see that this is superior to even a bum on the street. When the Messiah returns, He will be King over all the earth, untill then HaSatan rules this place.
Leverything that Christ did was superior to any man that ever live on earth.and his sacrifice was ultimate,and final.
Pierre
The Messiah's works were profoundly more righteous than any man who has ever lived, but He did not come here to reign supreme, He came to serve! He was made lower than even a bum on the street. And through it all, He remained a humble servant.
Lthe fact that Christ humble himself, does not means that he is an lesser, Son of God than wen he was in heaven,are you try to say that wen a president put on a pair coverall he is a lesser president ???i think if he is president in a white shirt and a suit, he also is wen he put on a pair of coverall.
Pierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,12:44) Mikeboll, What part did 'Lucifer', Satan, play in thecreation of the heavens and earth?
Why did he feel that he, of all creation, if he were thirshally (how do you spell it…third down the line) created through Jesus, claiming the greatest accollade of all, WORSHIP from God's greatest creation…
God's greatest creation? Man?…so what about Jesus?
JA, the scriptures speak of no part Satan ever played in the creation of anything, do they?Ah, but they do speak of all things being created through Jesus, don't they?
Face it JA. Satan is not God's REAL firstborn just because you want him to be.
And I've already answered you about Adam and Eve. I think I asked you if Prince Edward would have had to create Europe in order for him to try and get the people there to worship him as a god?
Hitler tried it, didn't he? Did Hitler have a hand in creating Europe?
The Caesars considered themselves gods and insisted that their subjects do the same, right? Does that mean that they had to have had a hand in creating Italy?
Think man, think.
Now, how about you answer a question instead of running and hiding from it?
The word “arche” means “ruler”, just like in Michael the archangel. Do you understand this yet? Do you understand it refers to living things in Col 1:16, not inanimate objects?
mike
Realistically you have to agree, Yahushua Messiah did not come here to rule with authority as a supreme one. He was a servant, a lowly one who stooped to wash the feet of His taught ones. One who hanged there on the stake and cried to His ABBA. Remember?
Yahushua Messiah taught me that if i want to be a part of His kingdom i must be humble and a servant. I shall not rule over my sisters and my brothers, i shall serve them. First and foremost I must serve my Elohim Yahuweh, like my Master did.
Our reward will be in the everlasting kingdom, not in this world of sin and corruption. Then finally my Master will reign with righteousness over all of Yahuweh's creation.Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,20:59) Realistically you have to agree, Yahushua Messiah did not come here to rule with authority as a supreme one. He was a servant, a lowly one who stooped to wash the feet of His taught ones. One who hanged there on the stake and cried to His ABBA. Remember?
Li understand what you are saying and agree with it,but what he did was a duty(job) in a way,
Pierre
Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,21:06) Yahushua Messiah taught me that if i want to be a part of His kingdom i must be humble and a servant. I shall not rule over my sisters and my brothers, i shall serve them. First and foremost I must serve my Elohim Yahuweh, like my Master did.
Our reward will be in the everlasting kingdom, not in this world of sin and corruption. Then finally my Master will reign with righteousness over all of Yahuweh's creation.
Lthat is what scriptures are saying but everyone is not called to heaven ,most will dwell on the new earth,
Pierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 28 2010,12:44) Through Jesus, an Angel that was 'Perfect', glorious, radiant, beautiful to behold…the direct creation of God through Jesus created a being more glorious than the directly created of God himself…how is that possible?
JA, you know nothing about Satan until what we're told about him in the Garden of Eden. You are applying words said about the King of Tyre to Satan – as if it's fact. You call him “Lucifer” – why? Does scripture ever say Satan's name is “Lucifer”?So, you see, you are willing to overlook words of scripture for something that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT even be about Satan. The scholars at NETNotes think that passage has nothing to do with Satan at all. And before you start in with me…………I HAVEN'T YET LOOKED INTO IT, SO THAT'S WHY I SAY “MIGHT” ABOVE.
All I'm saying is that you are taking something that says someone was beautiful, and from that you have created your own doctrine that Satan was God's REAL firstborn son.
And you act confused about things being created “through” Jesus. Pray on it JA, because that's what scripture clearly says in many places.
And now, since 1 Cor 8:6 shoots down your “all doesn't really mean all” theory, you are now trying to say “things” doesn't include angels and men?
Wow JA. At what point do you just acknowledge that you were mistaken and move on?Is a living being a “thing” JA? This is elementary. EVERYTHING is a “thing”, it's just that we later break that group of “things” down into subcategories like “persons” and “places”, etc. A county store is a place JA, but it remains a “thing” also, right?
mike
Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,13:59) Realistically you have to agree, Yahushua Messiah did not come here to rule with authority as a supreme one. He was a servant, a lowly one who stooped to wash the feet of His taught ones. One who hanged there on the stake and cried to His ABBA. Remember?
Hi L,Yes he was rich, but made himself poor for us. This thread is mistitled, thanks to an oversight on my part. It started from a debate that Jesus was just one of the many angels before being made as flesh.
But scriptures clearly say that all invisible things in heaven were created through him. (Col 1:16)
Do you agree with Col 1:16 Laurel?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 28 2010,14:09) Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,21:06) Yahushua Messiah taught me that if i want to be a part of His kingdom i must be humble and a servant. I shall not rule over my sisters and my brothers, i shall serve them. First and foremost I must serve my Elohim Yahuweh, like my Master did.
Our reward will be in the everlasting kingdom, not in this world of sin and corruption. Then finally my Master will reign with righteousness over all of Yahuweh's creation.
Lthat is what scriptures are saying but everyone is not called to heaven ,most will dwell on the new earth,
Pierre
????????????? Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,21:33) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 28 2010,14:09) Quote (Laurel @ Nov. 28 2010,21:06) Yahushua Messiah taught me that if i want to be a part of His kingdom i must be humble and a servant. I shall not rule over my sisters and my brothers, i shall serve them. First and foremost I must serve my Elohim Yahuweh, like my Master did.
Our reward will be in the everlasting kingdom, not in this world of sin and corruption. Then finally my Master will reign with righteousness over all of Yahuweh's creation.
Lthat is what scriptures are saying but everyone is not called to heaven ,most will dwell on the new earth,
Pierre
?????????????
Lwhat is it you do not understand ?
that is what scriptures are saying,(this means scriptures agree with what you say)
but everyone is not called to heaven ,most will dwell on the new earth,
this is all in God s kingdom,
Pierre
Mikeboll,
This is the second time that, when confronted by something you cannot refute you make this underhanded claim of, 'I haven't looked into it yet'…yet, in the same bresthe, you make every statement under the sun refuting what i have said…
How do you do that?
“2 plus 2 equals 4, and 2 times 2 equals 4”, says JA.
Mikeboll says, “I don't know mathematics but you 'MAY' be wrong. I haven't looked into it yet..and, until i do (Which I never will …admit…if i find i'm wrong) i'm saying you don't know what under the earth you are talking about”I asked you a simple question and you go off on a tangent….
What has Hitler got to do with taking Satan desiring worship from mortal men?
The question is,'Why did Satan think that he, above all others of God's creation, although having no part in the creation process, and even above Jesus who 'created him', deserve the greatest accollade of all, even equal to that of the premier, the Parent force, God Almighty himself, that he should be Worshipped.
(Why didn't Jesus think it is he, himself, who should be Worshipped by mankind? After all, he created him/them)
And, again, i ask, why do you keep bringing in 'Satan was God's first created'…when did i last mention that in my post…yet you keep saying it…oh, i know, you are hoping to use it to convince others against me because you can't find any other way….Sad…
And, what use are the verses concerning the King of Tyre, if they are not analogically pointing to Satan? What, just a little pointless history lesson that the Scripture writer thought he'd throw in so there would be enough Scriptures to make 'Edj's centre of the Bible come out right? After all, who decided how many books should be in the bible…and which multisentenced paragraph should be a verse, or should, 'Jesus Wept' be a verse on it's own…there is another two worded single verse in the bible, but longer two words.
And finally, why was Satan, a nobody by you…given his own Kingdom? Doesn't sound like an Angel of insignificant power and authority ('Lucifer'….what's wrong with calling him 'Lucifer'? You don't know Jesus' name while in preExistence, yet you call him 'Jesus' all the same??)
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