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Quote (kerwin @ May 04 2014,18:59) Mike, The book of 1 Enoch has been bastardized and it has stuff thrown in there that has not been quoted by Scripture. There was an unaltered version at one time but I do not know if we have access to it today.
I already pointed out it gives another reason that Scripture does for God creating woman. It can either believe it or Scripture.
Kerwin,It is not an “either/or” situation.
I can believe all three. I can believe Enoch, Genesis 1:27-28, AND Genesis 2:18.
So your “rebuttal” is weak – and doesn't address the things SAID in Enoch, nor the many points I made for you in my last post.
The FIRST thing God said to His first two humans was, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.”
And Adam named his wife “Eve” BECAUSE she would become the mother of all human beings.
Procreation was always a part of the plan, Kerwin. Yet God's spiritual and immortal sons DON'T procreate. Doesn't that tell you something? It should.
Mike,
All I know is that God stated that he created woman so man would not be alone. That may well have also included the idea of having young as he also did instruct humanity to reproduce after its kind. The bastardized book of 1Enoch seems to be going further than even your conclusion that he created her to reproduce as it is not even based on Scripture.
I know the differences between many kinds if creature so one that does procreate nor die seems to fit in with the rest of the variations.
Quote (kerwin @ May 05 2014,09:44) The bastardized book of 1Enoch seems to be going further than even your conclusion that he created her to reproduce as it is not even based on Scripture.
You don't know that the Enoch version I quoted from is the “bastardized version”, do you?Not really important, since it is clear to both of us that, from the beginning, God intended for human beings to procreate offspring.
What about those other tidbits in Enoch?
- Spiritual = heavenly, immortal
- Flesh = earthly, mortal
Can you see they are antonyms?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 05 2014,05:41)
Nick,Quote Being freed from the destructive sin in the flesh gives health to the body
So does wisdomYes since you are free from the destructive sin by wisdom in action.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 06 2014,07:46) Quote (kerwin @ May 05 2014,09:44) The bastardized book of 1Enoch seems to be going further than even your conclusion that he created her to reproduce as it is not even based on Scripture.
You don't know that the Enoch version I quoted from is the “bastardized version”, do you?Not really important, since it is clear to both of us that, from the beginning, God intended for human beings to procreate offspring.
What about those other tidbits in Enoch?
- Spiritual = heavenly, immortal
- Flesh = earthly, mortal
Can you see they are antonyms?
Mike,I see they are grouped with angels but right now I am not prepared to figure out how a Jewish mind of the time worked.
Which book in the Bible was not written by a “Jew”, Kerwin?
Paul was not only a Jew, but even a Pharisee. And Paul alluded to Enoch in his own writings.
So if the Book of Enoch equates “spiritual” with “immortal heavenly beings”, and Paul was obviously familiar with the teachings of Enoch, then it makes sense that Paul was speaking of “spiritual bodies” as the “bodies of immortal heavenly beings” in 1 Cor 15. He even says,
1 Corinthians 15
48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly.
This aligns perfectly with the other things Paul wrote – as well as with that passage from Enoch that I quoted.
It means that after the resurrection, our bodies will no longer be flesh, like the body we had on earth. Instead, we will have spiritual bodies, like those of heaven have.
Mike,
Quote Book of Enoch Chapter 15 3 You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.
4 These however die and perish.
According to this these “angels” have sire children in carnal blood. That would be probably be fleshly blood. It is not something I have heard since I am not sure how it applies to the act of sex.
Then there is “lusted in the blood of men” which according to my limited knowledge means they like to kill humans.
In other words to figure out what the writer was thinking. I have enough a challenge doing that with Scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,19:43) Then there is “lusted in the blood of men” which according to my limited knowledge means they like to kill humans.
I think it means that these angels lusted after fleshy human woman.
This is supported by Genesis 6:2.Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2014,12:43) Mike, Quote Book of Enoch Chapter 15 3 You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.
4 These however die and perish.
According to this these “angels” have sire children in carnal blood. That would be probably be fleshly blood. It is not something I have heard since I am not sure how it applies to the act of sex.
Then there is “lusted in the blood of men” which according to my limited knowledge means they like to kill humans.
In other words to figure out what the writer was thinking. I have enough a challenge doing that with Scripture.
Hi Kerwin.We should not make room for the false prophet
by saying that Jesus will come again in the flesh.
Because the false prophet is coming in the flesh.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2014,08:19) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,19:43) Then there is “lusted in the blood of men” which according to my limited knowledge means they like to kill humans.
I think it means that these angels lusted after fleshy human woman. This is supported by Genesis 6:2.
Mike,No it is not.
Genesis 6:2 is vague about what the term son of God means. In the new testament and old human beings are called the sons of God. In Job angels are called the sons of God.
In the five books of Law it is clearly certain human beings that are called the sons of God. Seth's line begins with Adam's creation by God while Cain's begins with Cain being cut off from the presence of God. In addition immediately after the line of Seth is finished the next few verses tell of the intermarriage with the sons of God and the daughters of man.
That is irrelevant to what 1 Enoch teaches since it obviously teaches what you believe and not what I believe on this issue. I tend to agree since that is what the context looks like it means but the context also seems to be obsessed by blood, which it also calls carnal(or more literally fleshly).
I do not know enough about 1 Enoch to make anything but a hypothesis at this time and since I believe it has different sources I am not sure its message is consistent in all things.
Quote (kerwin @ May 09 2014,08:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 08 2014,08:19) Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2014,19:43) Then there is “lusted in the blood of men” which according to my limited knowledge means they like to kill humans.
I think it means that these angels lusted after fleshy human woman. This is supported by Genesis 6:2.
Mike,No it is not.
Genesis 6:2 is vague about what the term son of God means. In the new testament and old human beings are called the sons of God. In Job angels are called the sons of God.
In the five books of Law it is clearly certain human beings that are called the sons of God. Seth's line begins with Adam's creation by God while Cain's begins with Cain being cut off from the presence of God. In addition immediately after the line of Seth is finished the next few verses tell of the intermarriage with the sons of God and the daughters of man.
That is irrelevant to what 1 Enoch teaches since it obviously teaches what you believe and not what I believe on this issue. I tend to agree since that is what the context looks like it means but the context also seems to be obsessed by blood, which it also calls carnal(or more literally fleshly).
I do not know enough about 1 Enoch to make anything but a hypothesis at this time and since I believe it has different sources I am not sure its message is consistent in all things.
Kerwin.Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Are the sons of God in this verse angels or men?
wakeup.
Hi,
Rom 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.Angelic or human these are the sons of God
Wakeup,
As I said previously, the angels are called the sons of God in the book of Job.
Nick makes a very good point by quoting Romans 8:14.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 08 2014,14:39) Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2014,12:43) Mike, Quote Book of Enoch Chapter 15 3 You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.
4 These however die and perish.
According to this these “angels” have sire children in carnal blood. That would be probably be fleshly blood. It is not something I have heard since I am not sure how it applies to the act of sex.
Then there is “lusted in the blood of men” which according to my limited knowledge means they like to kill humans.
In other words to figure out what the writer was thinking. I have enough a challenge doing that with Scripture.
Hi Kerwin.We should not make room for the false prophet
by saying that Jesus will come again in the flesh.
Because the false prophet is coming in the flesh.wakeup.
Wakeup,The Antichrist and the False Prophet are different creatures and I believe that the spirit of the False Prophet has been here a long time preparing the way for the Antichrist.
Wakeup,
Scripture declares about the final resurrection that the seed that is buried is not the one that arises from the grave. We know that the seed that was buried in Jesus grave was mortal and that the one that arose was not a spirit but is instead a flesh and bone body. Some speculate he just manifested flesh and bone but they have no evidence and do not believe his evidence that he was not spirit. Others speculate he changed to become a spirit when ascending to heaven but like those that thing he manifest they are inadvertently claiming Jesus was not resurrected from the dead.
Those that believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead believe they will resurrected in a like manner and that is not as a spirit but of one whose body is flesh and bone.
Hi ,
Acts 2
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Quote (kerwin @ May 08 2014,15:04) Genesis 6:2 is vague about what the term son of God means. That is irrelevant to what 1 Enoch teaches since it obviously teaches what you believe and not what I believe on this issue. I tend to agree since that is what the context looks like it means……….
You are correct that the context supports angels who mated with human woman. And you are correct that Enoch, which was many times alluded to in scripture, supports that context.Your idea that the “sons of God” were offspring of Seth doesn't make sense, since it says they mated with “daughters of adam”. And surely the daughters of Seth's line were just as much “daughters of adam” as the daughters of Cain's line were. It's ludicrous to think that ONLY Cain's female descendants were considered “daughters of adam”, while Seth's female descendants were not.
There is a specific reason that these particular “offspring of GOD“ were contrasted from the “offspring of ADAM“.
So you have MANY good reasons to understand it the way that I, Enoch, and 99% of people who have ever read the Bible understand it.
But will your own personal wishes continue to outweigh all of those good reasons?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 08 2014,15:29) Hi,
Rom 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.Angelic or human these are the sons of God
But those who are not led by Spirit don't stop being “sons of God”, Nick.The vast majority of the nation of Israel was not led by Spirit, and rebelled against God more often than they followed Him.
Yet despite these things, God called them His sons.
Satan was still a “son of God” in Job 1 and 2 – which was way AFTER he successfully tempted Eve.
He is a “son of God” to this very day. Not a very obedient son, but a son nonetheless.
Hi MB.
Yes and by Lk 3.38 Adam and his children are sons of God
But Jesus clarified the issueJn8
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
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