Was christ born on december 25

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 31 2010,16:06)

Hi Laurel,
I agree with you about Christ being conceived during Hanukah which can fall on Dec. 25th, btw.

I have had some thoughts about the seventh day sabbath and I believe that the old creation had the seventh day as the sabbath, the day of rest, from the finished work of God the creator but the new creation keeps the sabbath in the belief of Christ and the finished work of Christ the Savior. The sabbath of the new creation isn't related to the believer's physical work like in the old creation but Christ's work. Every day we are to honor the Lord. Christian's get together weekly to have regular fellowship, not to keep the sabbath of the old creation or to keep the sabbath of the new creation. They keep the sabbath of the new creation when they enter and remain in the belief in Christ by faith. It is no longer a day but it does begin the day you believe in Christ and His finished work, as I see it.

Heb 4:1-10
4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”;
5 and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”
6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
NASU

The things of the OT were often shadows of the true spiritual event or events to come as I understand.

That was an excellent post Kathi.

January 2, 2011 at 11:51 pm#231138

Participant

Hi all,

Among women, is it possible to know exactly which day a child is 'conceived'?

Can it be that Scriptures doesn't mention it so that the day is NOT Worshipped!!!

Jesus did not leave instruction to his Disciples to Worship the day he was born – but only the 'remember the Lord's Supper', the day he GAVE HIS BODY TO THEM as SPIRITUAL FOOD and his Blood as Spiritual Wine.

Jesus told them to break bread (His body) and drink Wine (his blood) – Not ONCE a YEAR —but “AS OFTEN AS YE MEET”…yet we only do this once a year!!!

In fact, not even the day he was crucified, although we do well to remember it – I think!

What say you all?

January 3, 2011 at 12:08 am#231140

Participant

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,11:51)

Jesus told them to break bread (His body) and drink Wine (his blood) – Not ONCE a YEAR —but “AS OFTEN AS YE MEET”…yet we only do this once a year!!!

Hi Istari,

The only ones who do this ONCE a year are the Adventists and the JWs and the Armstrong branches from what I have learnt.

For most other branches of Christianity it is once or more a week.

And yes, for the earliest Church it was whenever they met, as you said.

January 3, 2011 at 12:32 am#231145

Participant

Thanks Karmarie!

January 3, 2011 at 12:35 am#231146

Participant

Hi Istari,
Welcome to HN! Just wanted to tell you that the day isn't worshiped. The event that God orchestrated is celebrated, not worshiped. Purim was a manmade tradition which God never spoke against, did you think of that?

Churches celebrate the communion often, some of them, anyway.

Sorry I'm so brief but I am being told that we have to go to a movie…

Blessings,
Kathi

January 3, 2011 at 12:39 am#231149

Participant

Sorry forgot to say, Astaria…Istari…same picture, ok. Welcome back.

Your welcome Kathi, looks like you have looked into that quite a bit, I liked your post. Thanks.

January 3, 2011 at 12:54 am#231153

Participant

Hi Shimmer and Kathi,

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, you are right. I guess I was thinking of a little too selfishly of my own experiences.

Sorry, I have no idea what Purim is.

But, Kathi, yes, I have looked into this issue deeply. I'm glad i can get the chance to air my thoughts – and be corrected as you just did – on the side issues.

The main issue is – We DON'T KNOW when Jesus was conceived – and NEITHER DOES IT MATTER IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. – should I add:”I.M.H.O”?

This type of discussion draws energy away from True Spiritual matters – What of it if he was 'conceived' on boxing day, Christmas day – Pedantically, how could he be conceived on christmas day when there was no such day as christmas day before he was 'born' : Further, how could he have been conceived on Christmas day if he was also BORN on christmas day – even a year later? Did Mary carry him for twelve Months – that would be neat (Numbers are significant in the scriptures – On Month for each of the tribes of Israel, one month for each of the disciples, one month for each year until he became a man…)

January 3, 2011 at 12:57 am#231155

Participant

ohhh…I see someone has led the thread off topic and said “Conceived” when the thread topic said “Born” sorry… ok, but it was amusingly confusing for a while…

January 3, 2011 at 1:00 am#231156

Participant

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,12:54)

The main issue is – We DON'T KNOW when Jesus was conceived – and NEITHER DOES IT MATTER IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. – should I add:”I.M.H.O”?

This type of discussion draws energy away from True Spiritual matters – What of it if he was 'conceived' on boxing day, Christmas day –

I agree Istari, I was thinking exactly the same thing.

I just happened to be readng here and read Kathi's post and thought it was really good.

But your right, these things draw us away from true spiritual things, and the main focus we should have is in how close we are to God, 'theosis', drawing close to God, as they call it in the Orthodox Church.

January 3, 2011 at 1:05 am#231157

Baker

Participant

I goggled this
You are here: Jesus Christ >> Learn More About Christmas Origin! >> Was Jesus Born on December 25
Was Jesus born on December 25?

Was Jesus born on December 25? There is no evidence for this date. So then, who decided that Jesus' birth would be celebrated on that date? The early Christian church did not celebrate Jesus' birth. It wasn't until A.D. 440 that the church officially proclaimed December 25 as the birth of Christ. This was not based on any religious evidence but on a pagan feast. Saturnalia was a tradition inherited by the Roman pagans from an earlier Babylonian priesthood. December 25 was used as a celebration of the birthday of the sun god. It was observed near the winter solstice.

The apostles in the Bible predicted that some Christians would adopt pagan beliefs to enable them to make their religion more palatable to the pagans around them. Therefore, some scholars think the church chose the date of this pagan celebration to interest them in Christianity. The pagans were already used to celebrating on this date.

The Bible itself tells us that December 25 is an unlikely date for His birth. Palestine is very cold in December. It was much too cold to ask everyone to travel to the city of their fathers to register for taxes. Also the shepherds were in the fields (Luke 2:8-12). Shepherds were not in the fields in the winter time. They are in the fields early in March until early October. This would place Jesus' birth in the spring or early fall. It is also known that Jesus lived for 33.5 years and died at the feast of the Passover, which is at Easter time. He must therefore have been born six months the other side of Easter – making the date around the September/October time frames.

Other evidence that December 25 is the wrong date for the birth of Jesus comes from early writings. Iranaeus, born about a century after Jesus, notes that Jesus was born in the 41st year of the reign of Augustus. Since Augustus began his reign in the autumn of 43 B.C., this appears to substantiate the birth of Jesus as the autumn of 2 B.C. Eusebius (A.D. 264-340), the “Father of Church History,” ascribes it to the 42nd year of the reign of Augustus and the 28th from the subjection of Egypt on the death of Anthony and Cleopatra. The 42nd year of Augustus ran from the autumn of 2 B.C. to the autumn of 1 B.C. The subjugation of Egypt into the Roman Empire occurred in the autumn of 30 B.C. The 28th year extended from the autumn of 3 B.C. to the autumn of 2 B.C. The only date that would meet both of these constraints would be the autumn of 2 B.C.

John the Baptist also helps us determine that December 25 is not the birth of Jesus. Elizabeth, John's mother, was a cousin of Mary. John began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. The minimum age for the ministry was 30. As Augustus died on August 19, A.D. 14, that was the accession year for Tiberius. If John was born on April 19-20, 2 B.C., his 30th birthday would have been April 19-20, A.D. 29, or the 15th year of Tiberius. This seems to confirm the 2 B.C. date, and, since John was 5 months older, this also confirms an autumn birth date for Jesus.

Another interesting fact comes from Elizabeth herself. She hid herself for 5 months and then the Angel Gabriel announced to Mary both Elizabeth's condition and that Mary would also bear a son who would be called Jesus. Mary went “with haste” to visit Elizabeth, who was then in the first week of her 6th month, or the 4th week of Dec., 3 B.C. If Jesus was born 280 days later it would place his birth on Sept. 29, 2 B.C. Some scholars interpret the 6 months to be in line with the Hebrew calendar or the August-September time frame. Since Mary's pregnancy commenced a little before the sixth month around July, Jesus would be born somewhere around March-June. But does it matter if Jesus was born on the spring, the fall, or on December 25? Does it matter, theologically, when Jesus was born? What do you think, does it matter what day we celebrate His birth?

To me it matter, because it was the birthday of the Sun God, and not the Birthday of THE SON OF GOD.
Peace Irene

January 3, 2011 at 1:20 am#231159

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 31 2010,17:35)

Laurel,
you said:

Quote

Your words about old creation and new creation are “new to me” and i have read Scripture and loved Scripture for many years, never having read there about a new creation or anywhere where the Sabbath memorial, and sign of His everlasting covenant was ever changed to the SUN's day which is the day of pagan worship to their false elohim, and always has been since Babylon.

You might read my post again (first one on this page) and see that Christians haven't changed the sabbath day from the seventh day of the week, God changed the sabbath day to the day you believe in Christ and enter into His rest, NOT to the Sun's day. It is no longer a weekly day. Christians don't call Sunday the sabbath day unless they are confused. The sabbath of the old creatures (those who are unbelieving Jews) remains to be on the seventh day of the week but the sabbath of the new creatures begins on the day they believe in Christ as their savior by faith. On that day, they enter into a rest that lasts forever not just a 24 hour period once a week.

Some Christians may say that they keep the sabbath on the first day of the week but technically, they are keeping the sabbath everyday of the week since they believed in Christ by faith. The early Christians have been meeting regularly on the first day of the week, not as a weekly religious sabbath, from, at least, a time during the 2nd century and probably soon after Pentecost…in fact, they were meeting everyday for a while after Pentecost. They met on the first day of the week because it was the day that the Lord Jesus was resurrected which allowed for the church to begin to form and live, according to what I read from Justin the Martyr. Hundreds of years later, as I understand it, Constantine made the first day of the week officially a day where people rested from their work and held their day of regular Christian worship. The fact that the pagans already set that day aside weekly made it easier to bring them over to Christianity. It had an evangelical edge to it that way.

You do know that what once was pagan can be destroyed and replaced by the recognition of the true God, don't you? There is an example of just that in the OT where God had His people destroy a pagan altar and build a new one for Him on the same spot as where the pagan one was, even using the wooden carved Ashterah idol that was there, as some of the wood fuel to burn. Christians simply destroy the lie of the pagan days and replace them with ways of the new creature in Christ.

Kathi, sorry, this was the post which I really liked, the other one was really good too, but this was the one I should have quoted…. Ok, I'll be quiet now!

January 3, 2011 at 1:39 am#231161

Participant

Hi Irene,

Again, i'm sorry – I thought EVERYONE KNEW that that was how Christmas came about – I'm goggled…to see that there are believing Christians who do not know this.

Do the churches not teach such matters – if not perhaps – WHY NOT!!!! Are they not meant to teach TRUTH of Jesus and God.

Or perhaps they LIKE the festivals because it's the only time they get their churches full.
Or, perhaps because if they were to teach the truth they would be excommunicated – and they LOVE the Praise of their Bishops more than the truth of God.

Still, one can still attend church and desist for Christmas day worship – or, one can attend but say a silent prayer of “Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do!”

January 3, 2011 at 1:43 am#231162

Participant

Shimmer, you appear to be steering a heavenly course.
Are your posts always so Spiritual?

January 3, 2011 at 4:24 am#231188

Participant

Hi Karmarie,
Well, thanks for that then

January 3, 2011 at 5:02 am#231189

Participant

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 02 2011,18:54)

Hi Shimmer and Kathi,

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, you are right. I guess I was thinking of a little too selfishly of my own experiences.

Sorry, I have no idea what Purim is.

But, Kathi, yes, I have looked into this issue deeply. I'm glad i can get the chance to air my thoughts – and be corrected as you just did – on the side issues.

The main issue is – We DON'T KNOW when Jesus was conceived – and NEITHER DOES IT MATTER IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. – should I add:”I.M.H.O”?

Istari,
You are right that the date isn't important. I think that Jesus was most likely born in September and 9 months prior to that would mean a conception in December. The event that many celebrate on December 25th is an event that encompasses a time period, which makes the day of the birth just one of the days within the time period from the angel appearing to Mary, her visit to Elizabeth, Joseph's concern of another man, an angel appearing to him to assure him of Mary's words, their trip to Bethlehem, finding shelter and giving birth, an angel announcement to shepherds, their visit, the magi's visit to worship the baby and Joseph and Mary taking the baby to Egypt to flee Herod's attempt to kill the baby.

Many young children can tell you those events like I just did because every year in December it is told to them by pastors, parents, Sunday school teachers, carolers at the mall, story books, etc. That is the benefit of having an annual tradition of celebrating that Jesus came in the flesh to be the savior of the world. Without a tradition like that they might say as you did about Purim…”I have no idea what Purim is.”

I dare say, if Purim was established as an annual worldwide celebration, you would know what Purim was too.

You can read about Purim in the book of Esther…a manmade annual Jewish celebration that taught the future generations how God used a young Jewish girl to save the Jewish people. God never mentioned any disapproval of the annual celebration of Purim even though it was 'manmade.'

Annual celebrations, manmade based on true spiritual events, or God installed celebrations, are useful to pass the stories down to the next generations. Many people have heard the gospel of Christ because of the manmade tradition of Christmas.

Btw, those many children that can layout the events that Christmas celebrates, won't mention anything about a sun god unless a pagan ritual religious person, albeit with good intentions, tries to place a false impression that they should not celebrate Christmas in honor of keeping the day instead for a god that does not even exist. Children need to be taught that anything pertaining to the celebrations of false gods should be disregarded and not given attention because we have only one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. It is what is pertaining to them that we acknowledge and we are to grow into that knowledge.

The date is not important or we would have been told the date. The event is important and Christmas has done a wonderful job getting the message of the event out all over the world.

Peace to you Istari,
Kathi

January 3, 2011 at 6:45 am#231202