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I say absolutely NOT…nowhere does the bible say that…therefore by default..man was not created to “live forever”….if so..show me where god promised this originally….I also say…that because Adam was NOT perfect and had no knowledge of “good or evil”….he did not “sin” in the way that we “sin”….therefore Romans 5:12 must mean something other than what traditional theology teaches…
Also…i would like to say that NO WHERE does the bible say that Jesus was PERFECT….the bible does called him…”the perfecter” of our faith..but no where does it say that Jesus was perfect….
So therefore..i submit that…the teaching that Adam and Jesus were “perfect” does not fit in line with what the bible teaches…
Adam was said to be “very good”
and Jesus was “one in union with GOD”
but that is about it
Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 30 2009,06:24) I say absolutely NOT…nowhere does the bible say that…therefore by default..man was not created to “live forever”….if so..show me where god promised this originally….I also say…that because Adam was NOT perfect and had no knowledge of “good or evil”….he did not “sin” in the way that we “sin”….therefore Romans 5:12 must mean something other than what traditional theology teaches… Also…i would like to say that NO WHERE does the bible say that Jesus was PERFECT….the bible does called him…”the perfecter” of our faith..but no where does it say that Jesus was perfect….
So therefore..i submit that…the teaching that Adam and Jesus were “perfect” does not fit in line with what the bible teaches…
Adam was said to be “very good”
and Jesus was “one in union with GOD”
but that is about it
I suppose you better give your definition of perfect.martian………Jesus said why call me good there is only one who is Good and that is God, and we know Adam was not perfect of He would have never disobeyed GOD. I tend to believe DK on this. I also believe GOD Know and intended what has happened to man, i do not believe it was an accident, but was in the plan and will of GOD. A definition of Perfect would be help full. To me that would mean without any flaw of any kind. God did say Job was a perfect and upright MAN , maybe as far as man goes He was at least when God had a hedge around him.
God did command us to be PERFECT and HOLY because HE Said HE WAS> SO He is the Mark but who has fully reached it fully?
Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 30 2009,06:24) I say absolutely NOT…nowhere does the bible say that…therefore by default..man was not created to “live forever”….if so..show me where god promised this originally….I also say…that because Adam was NOT perfect and had no knowledge of “good or evil”….he did not “sin” in the way that we “sin”….therefore Romans 5:12 must mean something other than what traditional theology teaches… Also…i would like to say that NO WHERE does the bible say that Jesus was PERFECT….the bible does called him…”the perfecter” of our faith..but no where does it say that Jesus was perfect….
So therefore..i submit that…the teaching that Adam and Jesus were “perfect” does not fit in line with what the bible teaches…
Adam was said to be “very good”
and Jesus was “one in union with GOD”
but that is about it
(4) Allah doth wish to lighten your (difficulties): For man was created weak (in flesh).
( An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #28)hi
what is Adam perfection?to me he was created by God does God create not perfect things?,i dont think so ,Adam was perfect as all the other things God has created,this means everything was working as plan by God ,the earth,animal world, birds,fish,sun,stars and so on.Adam ad recieved an conditional everlasting live.he willfully choose to believe the devil and is wife ,corrupt himself and stoped being perfect,he lost God glory.To all,
It is written that man was created upright but chose to go in search of many schemes. That is equivalent of stating Adam and Eve were created perfect. I hypothesis that is because they did not know how to do either good or evil. In that case perhaps they were just not accountable for any sins they performed. I am not sure as being unaccountable for sins is being upright.
I do know Jesus was tempted like we are but without sin. That is perfection.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2009,19:30) To all, It is written that man was created upright but chose to go in search of many schemes. That is equivalent of stating Adam and Eve were created perfect. I hypothesis that is because they did not know how to do either good or evil. In that case perhaps they were just not accountable for any sins they performed. I am not sure as being unaccountable for sins is being upright.
I do know Jesus was tempted like we are but without sin. That is perfection.
I don't know what you are trying to say here? But God did not create Adam perfect, because He wanted to see if man would obey Him.IMO Since the Angels were Spirit beings. and some sinned, He did not make the same again. He wants to test us. That is why in the first place He created all of us. IMO
That is also why I belief in the Millenium all will only know the truth and no more confusion. Then Satan will be loosed again and test all. And a great multitude will go with Satan. Sad but true. Look around you how society in general has deteriorated. My Husband was telling me about some advertising for all kinds of sex toys. Unreal to say the least. No shame. Satan is the God of this world that I am sure of.
That is why Scriptures say that it will be easier for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah then the people at the end times.
Did you ever think why Scriptures says that? If they would go straight to the Lake of fire, why would they have another chance.
I have thought about that, and the only conclusion is that all will have the first chance, those that never knew Jesus. Small babies that died for instance. I know of a Minister that said that they have no chance and will get the lake of fire. That I don't belief.
Well, I did go of subject somewhat, I don't know why I have to write this……..
Also if God would have created Adam perfect,He would not have sinned. IMO
This body of flesh is weak, and the mind is willing. With God's Holy Spirit it is possible now, without it IMO not.
But of course I could also be wrong, time will tell I always say!!!!!!!
Peace and Love IreneTo all: A perfect God could only make a perfect being. That being had free-will to believe and create just like his father. That being that was full of life/light, created and believed in his own illusion of truth, death!
The perfection was in the creation not in what the creation did or didn't do. There is not one person that can describe what “perfect” is yet they constantly make judgments of lack of pefection.
IMO, TK
Irene,
I am sure of the definition of “upright” that applies to the scripture which declares God created mankind “upright”. I am not unsure of the fact Jesus did not sin even though he was tempted to the same degree as any other man. Resisting that temptation even led to him dying on the cross.
I am confident that babies are not accountable for their actions. God judgment of them is just but I refuse to second guess him. Trust in God.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2009,23:08) Irene, I am sure of the definition of “upright” that applies to the scripture which declares God created mankind “upright”. I am not unsure of the fact Jesus did not sin even though he was tempted to the same degree as any other man. Resisting that temptation even led to him dying on the cross.
I am confident that babies are not accountable for their actions. God judgment of them is just but I refuse to second guess him. Trust in God.
kerwin I had a conversation with Georg about this, and we don't agree on this. I really don't know for sure if I am right or if Georg is right, so I just have to wait and pray about it and let God reveal to me what is right or wrong. I do believe that God is perfect, but if we were perfect in the beginning at birth, I just can't see that we could then sin. I agree with you on the Babies, but can you even grasp that a Minister did not!!!!
IreneAdam……may have been a perfect Human being, as created, but was He himslef Perfect (NO) if he were why did He disobey GOD them.
But then again it may have been in the Foreknowledge of GOD all along, He knew the Man and women (WOULD) Fail and that the experience of GOOD and EVIL would in the long run produce Character in us all. I believe this evil world produces attributes in us that GOD want us to have. It gives us wisdom by learning the difference between good and evil. So we learn to love the good and Hate the evil. IMO
gene
Quote (banana @ Dec. 02 2009,06:28) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2009,23:08) Irene, I am sure of the definition of “upright” that applies to the scripture which declares God created mankind “upright”. I am not unsure of the fact Jesus did not sin even though he was tempted to the same degree as any other man. Resisting that temptation even led to him dying on the cross.
I am confident that babies are not accountable for their actions. God judgment of them is just but I refuse to second guess him. Trust in God.
kerwin I had a conversation with Georg about this, and we don't agree on this. I really don't know for sure if I am right or if Georg is right, so I just have to wait and pray about it and let God reveal to me what is right or wrong. I do believe that God is perfect, but if we were perfect in the beginning at birth, I just can't see that we could then sin. I agree with you on the Babies, but can you even grasp that a Minister did not!!!!
Irene
I would state that the minister in question is rather arrogant to think he can second guess God. That is certainly not a sign of a true teacher of God.Some Christian sects believe even babies are guilty of Adam's sin. I do not believe in that variation of the tenet of original sin.
Concerning babies and little children. Yes, we are all born in to sin because its been past down the line generation after generation since Adam. BUT God knows until a child reaches a certain age, they dont even know what sin is. They only know what they are being taught. Our pastor always said ;he thought it would be till you are old enough to be accountable for your own actions. When you truly can make decesions and know whats right and wrong. ON Adam and Eve, yes, I beleive he was perfect and so was Eve. The earth was suppose to be paradise, like it will be in the end. Adam and Eve did not know sin at first,I dont beleive there was even suppose to be death, they were nude and not ashamed until they ate from the tree and done what God told them not to do
than after they sinned they realized they were naked. Thats when God told Adam that He would die. And Adam lived a very long life before he died. So when God told Him he would die, that did not mean right away but He let Adam live a long life, than death. I often wonder if God meant spiritually dead? Bible says nothing about God for giving Adam, is that maybe because Adam did not ask?katjo
hi all,
i wander if i compare Jesus and,Job temptation by the devil,and Adam sin what would be the conclution outcome?Quote (katjo @ Dec. 02 2009,09:23) Concerning babies and little children. Yes, we are all born in to sin because its been past down the line generation after generation since Adam. BUT God knows until a child reaches a certain age, they dont even know what sin is. They only know what they are being taught. Our pastor always said ;he thought it would be till you are old enough to be accountable for your own actions. When you truly can make decesions and know whats right and wrong. ON Adam and Eve, yes, I beleive he was perfect and so was Eve. The earth was suppose to be paradise, like it will be in the end. Adam and Eve did not know sin at first,I dont beleive there was even suppose to be death, they were nude and not ashamed until they ate from the tree and done what God told them not to do
than after they sinned they realized they were naked. Thats when God told Adam that He would die. And Adam lived a very long life before he died. So when God told Him he would die, that did not mean right away but He let Adam live a long life, than death. I often wonder if God meant spiritually dead? Bible says nothing about God for giving Adam, is that maybe because Adam did not ask?katjo
Being naked in not a sin but seeing a naked individual can cause one to be tempted to lust and lust is a sin. I wonder if Adam an Eve were ashamed because of their nakedness or their temptation to sin?If the later then it implies they were not tempted by sin previous to eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Quote And 'elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So 'elohim created man in his image, in the image of 'elohim created he him; male and female created he them. And 'elohim blessed them, and 'elohim said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And 'elohim said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein life, every green herb for meat: and it was so. And 'elohim saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31 Quote And the LORD 'elohim formed man the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD 'elohim planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD 'elohim to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:7-9 Quote And the LORD 'elohim took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD 'elohim commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:15-17 'Elohim gave Man his first “COMMANDMENT“!
Quote And the LORD 'elohim said, not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Genesis 2:18 Quote And the LORD 'elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD 'elohim had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Genesis 2:21-25 Quote Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD 'elohim had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath 'elohim said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which in the midst of the garden, 'elohim hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For 'elohim doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree good for food, and that it pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Genesis 3:1-7 Quote And they heard the voice of the LORD 'elohim walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD 'elohim amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD 'elohim called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD 'elohim said unto the woman, What this thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Genesis 3:8-13 'Elohim asked Adam if he broke his “COMMANDMENT“!
Adam and Eve “SINNED“!
Adam and Eve had “Conditional Immortality” as long as they did not touch or eat from the “Tree of Knowledge”, in the day that they did they lost this life and thus they must suffer the “First Death”.
Quote (dirtyknections @ Nov. 30 2009,06:24) I say absolutely NOT…nowhere does the bible say that…therefore by default..man was not created to “live forever”….if so..show me where god promised this originally….I also say…that because Adam was NOT perfect and had no knowledge of “good or evil”….he did not “sin” in the way that we “sin”….therefore Romans 5:12 must mean something other than what traditional theology teaches… Also…i would like to say that NO WHERE does the bible say that Jesus was PERFECT….the bible does called him…”the perfecter” of our faith..but no where does it say that Jesus was perfect….
So therefore..i submit that…the teaching that Adam and Jesus were “perfect” does not fit in line with what the bible teaches…
Adam was said to be “very good”
and Jesus was “one in union with GOD”
but that is about it
dkThe wages of sin is death, Rom. 6:23.
Disobeying God is sin, regardless of whether you brake a commandment or not.
Had Adam obeyed God, he would still be alive today.
Not only was Adam created perfect, even Lucifer, who became Satan the devil, was created perfect.Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
He was perfect, UNTIL iniquity was found in him.
Isa 14:12 ¶ How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Did Jesus ever force any one to believe him? that is why you have a free will; you will even be allowed to choose between life and death.
Georg
Quote (Gene @ Dec. 02 2009,08:12) Adam……may have been a perfect Human being, as created, but was He himslef Perfect (NO) if he were why did He disobey GOD them. But then again it may have been in the Foreknowledge of GOD all along, He knew the Man and women (WOULD) Fail and that the experience of GOOD and EVIL would in the long run produce Character in us all. I believe this evil world produces attributes in us that GOD want us to have. It gives us wisdom by learning the difference between good and evil. So we learn to love the good and Hate the evil. IMO
gene
I do not believe that was the whole plan, but for the most part I agree.Wm
seekingtruth…………..Does is not say GOD knows the end from the beginning. GOD full well knew Man would sin, left to his own (influenced) Choices. Free Will had nothing to do with it they (Adam and Eve) were influenced to sin. Nothing FREE about it. Man did not have the character to not sin yet, he had no knowledge of Good and Evil yet, before he took of the forbidden fruit. While i do agree if Man had not eaten of the tree (that which produces from itself) the knowledge of good and evil, he would have not died. Never the less if God said look man has become as WE are, (KNOWING) Good and Evil. The word knowing means to have experience with or inmate knowledge of. I believe the whole thing was in the Plan of GOD all a long, He forewarned man of the consequences of it, as any Father would do to his children , but he also know they lacked the character need to resist the temptation in fact there eye of (understanding) were not even opened unto the true consequences, even though GOD had forewarned them. Sure GOD the Father would, like any Father rather not see His childern go through the suffering that was a consequence of their wrongs choices. But none the less sometimes these sufferings are need full to gain wisdom and understanding. God even add hardship on them to further teach the effects of sin, he cursed the ground for (THEIR SAKE). This lesson was not going to be easy to learn, but learn they would, God was going to make sure of that. So it comes down to this, Did God want them to sin (NO) He wished they had the character to not sin, but did He know they would , I believe He did Know from the very beginning they would sin. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
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