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Quote (Wakeup @ April 01 2014,18:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 02 2014,10:21) Quote (Wakeup @ April 01 2014,07:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2014,08:59) Since there wasn't an answer in that last post, here is the question once again, Wakeup: WAS that Word of God ALREADY a different being BEFORE God spoke him out of His mouth?
MikeB.Before the beginning?
No: only God was.
THANK YOU…….. finally!So, if this separate living, breathing being did NOT exist as a separate living, breathing being from eternity, then there was a time when this separate living, breathing being BEGAN to exist, right?
Mike B.Yes; because He was still inside.
And God just brough Him out of Himself.
We are finally getting somewhere, Wakeup – thanks to you finally DIRECTLY answering some questions. If you keep that practice up, we'll finally make some headway.Quote (Wakeup @ April 01 2014,18:09) He was not created;He was just given a form.
But he wasn't a “HE” while inside of God, right?So God not only gave “HIM” a form, but also gave “HIM” an existence, right? Because this separate living BEING did not yet exist UNTIL God gave “HIM” a form, right?
Mike B.
When God was alone,there was no He next to God,unless you can call the mind of God a He.
wakeup.
No Wakeup,
I don't believe we can call the mind of God a “HE” – do you?
And since God used to be the ONLY being in existence, but then later came this new living, breathing being – you can't deny that this new living, breathing being was brought forth INTO EXISTENCE, right?
What's the other choice? If “he” wasn't there with God at first, but then “he” was with God, it is a matter of someone who DIDN'T exist – being brought INTO existence, right?
Even if you understand that God formed His literal words into a living being, it is clear that this new living being didn't exist until God formed him, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2014,13:03) No Wakeup, I don't believe we can call the mind of God a “HE” – do you?
And since God used to be the ONLY being in existence, but then later came this new living, breathing being – you can't deny that this new living, breathing being was brought forth INTO EXISTENCE, right?
What's the other choice? If “he” wasn't there with God at first, but then “he” was with God, it is a matter of someone who DIDN'T exist – being brought INTO existence, right?
Even if you understand that God formed His literal words into a living being, it is clear that this new living being didn't exist until God formed him, right?
Mike B.Think spiritual.
If you choose and refuse to speak all your life.
It does not mean that you dont have your word in you .Y/N?wakeup.
I would never say “my word is with me”, Wakeup.
In fact, you have never once in your entire life said, “I'm going out for the night, and I'll be taking my word with me.”
It is an illogical and nonsensical statement that you and Gene have devised in an effort to make sense out of your flawed understanding of the teaching in John 1:1.
But that is besides the point, so please don't waste my time addressing that first part of my post. The following is the part I want you to address…………
You say that the Word of God was NOT a separate living, breathing being at first, right? But then that same Word BECAME a separate living, breathing being, right?
Do you understand that you own words describe a BEING who at first did NOT exist, but later DID exist? YES or NO?
And if the Word WASN'T a separate being from eternity, then the Word has NO CHOICE but to have been made into a being at some point along the way.
And if God MADE a being where there was none before, then God CREATED a separate living, breathing being.
And do you know what that means, Wakeup? It means that “my Word” was the very first being God ever created. And that “your Word” was also the very first being God ever created.
So despite the fact that you argue against the scriptures that say the Word was “the firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation by God” – we are really both speaking about the same first being that God ever made.
Do you understand that?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2014,07:37) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 30 2014,10:01) That other being is NOT God,***but God's Word***.
See Ed?
(1) Wakeup, I UNDERSTAND that you say the Word is not God Himself, but God's Word. Do YOU understand that I'VE understood that from the first of the 2000 times you've told me the same thing? You DON'T need to EVER say that to me again, okay? I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, okay?
Now, to the matter at hand:
(2) WAS that Word of God ALREADY a different being BEFORE God spoke him out of His mouth?
Do you see a DIFFERENCE between what you KEEP ON telling me, and what I'm actually ASKING YOU?
Answer the thing I'm actually ASKING YOU, Wakeup.
Sorry Mike, I just seen this post now.1) 2 against 1 is that it?
2) The word of God is SpiritGod bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2014,05:43) I would never say “my word is with me”, Wakeup. In fact, you have never once in your entire life said, “I'm going out for the night, and I'll be taking my word with me.”
It is an illogical and nonsensical statement that you and Gene have devised in an effort to make sense out of your flawed understanding of the teaching in John 1:1.
But that is besides the point, so please don't waste my time addressing that first part of my post. The following is the part I want you to address…………
You say that the Word of God was NOT a separate living, breathing being at first, right? But then that same Word BECAME a separate living, breathing being, right?
Do you understand that you own words describe a BEING who at first did NOT exist, but later DID exist? YES or NO?
And if the Word WASN'T a separate being from eternity, then the Word has NO CHOICE but to have been made into a being at some point along the way.
And if God MADE a being where there was none before, then God CREATED a separate living, breathing being.
And do you know what that means, Wakeup? It means that “my Word” was the very first being God ever created. And that “your Word” was also the very first being God ever created.
So despite the fact that you argue against the scriptures that say the Word was “the firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation by God” – we are really both speaking about the same first being that God ever made.
Do you understand that?
MikeB.As if you are analysing some kind of thing.
This is God; a spirit you are trying to anylise with your wisdom.God Has a Mind and in His mind is *everything*. Yes?
Everything is in His mind,his speech included.
Not created.He spoke his own Word out. Not possible to you?
Analyse this with your own wisdom. And you get nothing.wakeup.
Wakeup,
The bottom line is that BOTH OF US believe there was only God at first, and then God later caused a separate living, breathing being to have existence.
We believe the same thing. It's just that you think this new being used to actually BE God Himself, and that this new being was somehow “made” or “formed” by God without God performing an act of “creation”.
But call it “made”, “formed”, “brought forth” – whatever……….. the fact remains that God caused a new and different BEING to exist when it didn't exist before.
Quote (Ed J @ April 06 2014,16:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2014,07:37) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 30 2014,10:01) That other being is NOT God,***but God's Word***.
See Ed?Sorry Mike, I just seen this post now.
1) 2 against 1 is that it?
Ed,The following, from a couple of pages ago, is what the “See Ed?” comment was about:
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 24 2014,13:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 23 2014,04:34)
(1) At the moment God brought this Word out, did the Word become a DIFFERENT being than God? Or
(2) is God and His Word still the SAME being – like you said in the last post on page 13 of this thread?WHICH ONE?
Hi Mike,Wakeup seems to be dodging your question here. He,
a lot of times doesn't answer my questions as well.From what I have been reading, I believe he holds
to the second position “(2)” that you have laid out.
I agree that he is dodging the question, Ed.I don't believe Wakeup claims #2 as often as he claims #1, Ed.
I was saying, “See Ed? Wakeup claims #1 more often and vehemently than he claims #2.”
Now do you understand?
Thanks, Mike
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Wakeup, of course.
“For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost,
whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation,
and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man
began to build, and was not able to finish.” (Luke 14:28-30)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 08 2014,03:02) Hi Wakeup, of course. “For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost,
whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation,
and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man
began to build, and was not able to finish.” (Luke 14:28-30)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edj.Yes; Before creation,God also had his Word in his mind;untill He spoke out His own Word, and gave Him a shape/form.
***And the Word was with God***.Before creation; before God spoke, his Word is in his mind.
*****and the Word was God****.This: most can not comprehend.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 07 2014,00:22) Mike B. Before the universe was created it was already in God's
*MIND*. Do you agree?wakeup.
Wakeup,You are going deeper and deeper into philosophical mumble-jumble.
If God had a mental image of what the universe was going to be like before He created it, we still cannot say the universe EXISTED in God, or in the mind of God, before He created it. We could not say the universe has existed FROM ETERNITY because it was always “in God's mind”. So whatever point you want to make with that question – it will end up null and void anyway.
I'm pretty much done with this subject, Wakeup. I have proven to you that BOTH OF US agree that God caused a BEING to exist who DIDN'T exist before that time.
At first there was ONLY God. Then later, there was God AND this other new being.
The new being wasn't there, but then he was. That is called “creation”, Wakeup.
When you cause a living thing to begin existing when it didn't exist before, it is called “creating a new life”.
And that goes along with these claims made about, and by, the Word:
1. He is the firstborn of every creature (the first creature ever created).
2. I am the beginning of the creation by God (the first thing God ever created).
3. God created me as the first of His works. Before the mountains were set in place, I was given birth. Before there were any deep oceans, I was born.
Wakeup, the only reason you ignore, avoid, or twist those scriptural teachings is because you feel you absolutely MUST make some kind of sense out of the flawed translation, “and the Word was God“.
This is how you've come up with the Word being Jesus, who you say WAS created, but yet the Word itself wasn't created. This is how you come up with Jesus being the servant of God, and not God Himself, yet the Word used to actually BE God Himself.
You have created for yourself a very confusing, alternating, and unscriptural doctrine solely because you won't believe “and the Word was a god“.
But if you read Hebrews 1:8 and Isaiah 9:6, you'll see that the Word was indeed a god – but not THE God Jehovah.
Just like John 1:1 tells us………. Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning – before God created all other things through him.
So everything I'm telling you aligns with all of the scriptures, Wakeup. Jesus/The Word is the firstborn SON of God because God made him first. And making a new being that didn't exist before is called “creating”.
In your understanding, the Word started off BEING God Almighty Himself, but then was caused to exist as a being OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself. And this other being was LITERALLY words that God Almighty spoke. And then later, these literal words that God spoke became the CREATION known as Jesus Christ, and at the same time became God's firstborn Son.
So “your Word” starts off being a brand new being who didn't exist before, but didn't become a CREATION or SON of God until he was transformed into flesh.
So basically, God Himself transformed into one of His creations, and into His own Son and Servant.
From there, you flip flop back and forth so many times that I'm still not sure what you believe. Sometimes you say this CREATION is still a part of God Himself, and that Isaiah calls him “The Everlasting Father”…….. and therefore we should worship him as if he IS God Himself.
Then other times, you go into hysterics trying to insist that this Word ISN'T actually God Himself.
At any rate, there is really nothing more to say about this subject. You believe nonsense because of a very flawed translation of John 1:1……… and I believe the scriptural truth of the matter.
Good day to you, sir.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2014,12:52) Quote (Wakeup @ April 07 2014,00:22) Mike B. Before the universe was created it was already in God's
*MIND*. Do you agree?wakeup.
Wakeup,You are going deeper and deeper into philosophical mumble-jumble.
If God had a mental image of what the universe was going to be like before He created it, we still cannot say the universe EXISTED in God, or in the mind of God, before He created it. We could not say the universe has existed FROM ETERNITY because it was always “in God's mind”. So whatever point you want to make with that question – it will end up null and void anyway.
I'm pretty much done with this subject, Wakeup. I have proven to you that BOTH OF US agree that God caused a BEING to exist who DIDN'T exist before that time.
At first there was ONLY God. Then later, there was God AND this other new being.
The new being wasn't there, but then he was. That is called “creation”, Wakeup.
When you cause a living thing to begin existing when it didn't exist before, it is called “creating a new life”.
And that goes along with these claims made about, and by, the Word:
1. He is the firstborn of every creature (the first creature ever created).
2. I am the beginning of the creation by God (the first thing God ever created).
3. God created me as the first of His works. Before the mountains were set in place, I was given birth. Before there were any deep oceans, I was born.
Wakeup, the only reason you ignore, avoid, or twist those scriptural teachings is because you feel you absolutely MUST make some kind of sense out of the flawed translation, “and the Word was God“.
This is how you've come up with the Word being Jesus, who you say WAS created, but yet the Word itself wasn't created. This is how you come up with Jesus being the servant of God, and not God Himself, yet the Word used to actually BE God Himself.
You have created for yourself a very confusing, alternating, and unscriptural doctrine solely because you won't believe “and the Word was a god“.
But if you read Hebrews 1:8 and Isaiah 9:6, you'll see that the Word was indeed a god – but not THE God Jehovah.
Just like John 1:1 tells us………. Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning – before God created all other things through him.
So everything I'm telling you aligns with all of the scriptures, Wakeup. Jesus/The Word is the firstborn SON of God because God made him first. And making a new being that didn't exist before is called “creating”.
In your understanding, the Word started off BEING God Almighty Himself, but then was caused to exist as a being OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself. And this other being was LITERALLY words that God Almighty spoke. And then later, these literal words that God spoke became the CREATION known as Jesus Christ, and at the same time became God's firstborn Son.
So “your Word” starts off being a brand new being who didn't exist before, but didn't become a CREATION or SON of God until he was transformed into flesh.
So basically, God Himself transformed into one of His creations, and into His own Son and Servant.
From there, you flip flop back and forth so many times that I'm still not sure what you believe. Sometimes you say this CREATION is still a part of God Himself, and that Isaiah calls him “The Everlasting Father”…….. and therefore we should worship him as if he IS God Himself.
Then other times, you go into hysterics trying to insist that this Word ISN'T actually God Himself.
At any rate, there is really nothing more to say about this subject. You believe nonsense because of a very flawed translation of John 1:1……… and I believe the scriptural truth of the matter.
Good day to you, sir.
Mike B.Why did you not answer my question?
I repeat.
Who is this created spokesman named Jesus in your opinion?
We need to know.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,14:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 08 2014,12:52) Quote (Wakeup @ April 07 2014,00:22) Mike B. Before the universe was created it was already in God's
*MIND*. Do you agree?wakeup.
Wakeup,You are going deeper and deeper into philosophical mumble-jumble.
If God had a mental image of what the universe was going to be like before He created it, we still cannot say the universe EXISTED in God, or in the mind of God, before He created it. We could not say the universe has existed FROM ETERNITY because it was always “in God's mind”. So whatever point you want to make with that question – it will end up null and void anyway.
I'm pretty much done with this subject, Wakeup. I have proven to you that BOTH OF US agree that God caused a BEING to exist who DIDN'T exist before that time.
At first there was ONLY God. Then later, there was God AND this other new being.
The new being wasn't there, but then he was. That is called “creation”, Wakeup.
When you cause a living thing to begin existing when it didn't exist before, it is called “creating a new life”.
And that goes along with these claims made about, and by, the Word:
1. He is the firstborn of every creature (the first creature ever created).
2. I am the beginning of the creation by God (the first thing God ever created).
3. God created me as the first of His works. Before the mountains were set in place, I was given birth. Before there were any deep oceans, I was born.
Wakeup, the only reason you ignore, avoid, or twist those scriptural teachings is because you feel you absolutely MUST make some kind of sense out of the flawed translation, “and the Word was God“.
This is how you've come up with the Word being Jesus, who you say WAS created, but yet the Word itself wasn't created. This is how you come up with Jesus being the servant of God, and not God Himself, yet the Word used to actually BE God Himself.
You have created for yourself a very confusing, alternating, and unscriptural doctrine solely because you won't believe “and the Word was a god“.
But if you read Hebrews 1:8 and Isaiah 9:6, you'll see that the Word was indeed a god – but not THE God Jehovah.
Just like John 1:1 tells us………. Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning – before God created all other things through him.
So everything I'm telling you aligns with all of the scriptures, Wakeup. Jesus/The Word is the firstborn SON of God because God made him first. And making a new being that didn't exist before is called “creating”.
In your understanding, the Word started off BEING God Almighty Himself, but then was caused to exist as a being OTHER THAN God Almighty Himself. And this other being was LITERALLY words that God Almighty spoke. And then later, these literal words that God spoke became the CREATION known as Jesus Christ, and at the same time became God's firstborn Son.
So “your Word” starts off being a brand new being who didn't exist before, but didn't become a CREATION or SON of God until he was transformed into flesh.
So basically, God Himself transformed into one of His creations, and into His own Son and Servant.
From there, you flip flop back and forth so many times that I'm still not sure what you believe. Sometimes you say this CREATION is still a part of God Himself, and that Isaiah calls him “The Everlasting Father”…….. and therefore we should worship him as if he IS God Himself.
Then other times, you go into hysterics trying to insist that this Word ISN'T actually God Himself.
At any rate, there is really nothing more to say about this subject. You believe nonsense because of a very flawed translation of John 1:1……… and I believe the scriptural truth of the matter.
Good day to you, sir.
Mike B.Why did you not answer my question?
I repeat.
Who is this created spokesman named Jesus in your opinion?
We need to know.wakeup.
wyour question was answered right from the beginning of this topic
T.
We want the spokesman beginning
Where he comes from, and what he really is.
Maybe you can tell us,because Mike refuses.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,19:12) T. We want the spokesman beginning
Where he comes from, and what he really is.
Maybe you can tell us,because Mike refuses.wakeup.
I will tell you if you first tell me from where his father comes fromQuote (terraricca @ April 09 2014,09:38) Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,19:12) T. We want the spokesman beginning
Where he comes from, and what he really is.
Maybe you can tell us,because Mike refuses.wakeup.
I will tell you if you first tell me from where his father comes from
T.That means you can not,
or wont put yourself in jeopardy.
Dont know what you believe.(again; a question answered with a question).
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,02:06) Mike B. Why did you not answer my question?
I repeat.
Who is this created spokesman named Jesus in your opinion?
We need to know.
I've answered that question a dozen times already, Wakeup. Most recently, about two days ago in a different thread where you asked the same question.Jesus is God's firstborn Son. He is the first thing God ever created. He has been a separate being from the God who created him from the very moment that God created him.
Through this first being and Son, God then created all other things, including His other spirit sons, the universe, the earth, mankind, etc.
If you want to know what I believe about Jesus, just read the scriptures, Wakeup. Because I believe exactly what they tell me about him.
He was the beginning of the creation by God, and the firstborn of every creature God ever created. He was already God's Son long before God ever sent him into the world as a flesh being. He remains God's firstborn, most loyal, and most powerful Son to this very day.
He sits at God's right hand in heaven.
What else do you need to know?
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