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Wakeup,
Your other posts are just the same old, same old. (Btw, if Jehovah was really speaking EVERY word that Jesus said, as you've claimed, then Jehovah prayed to Himself, and asked Himself to take the cup away from Himself. Perhaps you need to rethink some things.)
But as for this post:
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 23 2014,16:46) Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the *firstborn of every creature*:
That says Jesus was the first one born out of every creature in existence. He was born first.Wakeup, who do YOU think was the very first creature God created? Michael? Gabriel? Whoever you think it was, wouldn't that person rightly be called “the firstborn of every creature”?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 23 2014,16:46) Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true *witness*, the beginning of the creation of God;
Okay, so now we have “firstborn of every creature”. And we can add “beginning of the creation of God” to it. I'm seeing a pattern.What would the most logical understanding of “beginning of the creation of God” be? Wouldn't it logically mean “the starting point of God's creative works”? And wouldn't that match perfectly with “firstborn of every creature”?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 23 2014,16:46) Proverbs 8:22 The LORD *possessed* me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Bad translation. The correct translation is, “Jehovah CREATED me as the beginning of His works”.The following verses make this clear:
Proverbs 8 NIV
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth…..The context of the passage as a whole speaks about bringing “wisdom” into existence a long time ago – as the first of God's works. And that matches “firstborn of every creature” and “beginning of the creation of God”.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 23 2014,16:46) Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, **from everlasting**.
Another bad translation. The Hebrew words mean “from ancient times, days of old”. They don't mean “from everlasting”.Here is one of the many other places those same Hebrew words are used:
Malachi 3:4 KJV
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.And that is how those words are ALWAYS translated……. except for in Micah 5:2. Why do you suppose that is, Wakeup? Can you see the bias at work? Can you see that the KJV translators simply didn't WANT to translate those same words as “days of old, former years” in Micah 5:2 – because they know that verse is about Jesus, and they didn't WANT people to think that Jesus had a beginning?
If you want, I'll show you the other places the KJV translates those same words as “days of old, former years”.
As for the other part of the verse, consider these more reliable translations:
NET ©
…..from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.NIV ©
…….out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”NLT ©
…a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past.NRSV ©
……from you shall come forth for me one who is to rule in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from ancient days.And that translation matches “firstborn of every creature”, “beginning of the creation of God”, and “Jehovah created me as the first of His works”.
So it seems to me that those scriptures do indeed support what I've claimed – as well as supporting each other. I'll wait for your response.
Mikw B.
This is how the new translations can lead one
astray far away from the truth.
Just with a few words.
If you follow that translation; you will come across many contradictions. But many dont care to follow it up.
They just accept that as truth;with no questions.KJV:
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD **possessed me** in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Proverbs 8:23 **I was set up from everlasting**, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, **I was brought forth**; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was **I brought forth**:
Proverbs 8:26 **While as yet he had not made the earth**, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, **I was there**: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Proverbs 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Proverbs 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Proverbs 8:30 **Then I was by him**,
**as one brought up with him**:
**and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him**;NO; NO ONE IS BORN IN HEAVEN.
ALL ARE CREATED.
THE WORD OF GOD WAS WITH HIM SINCE EVERLASTING.
GOD NEVER EXISTED **WITH NO WORD**.
WITH NO HS. WITH NO WISDOM.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 25 2014,03:16) Mikw B. This is how the new translations can lead one
astray far away from the truth.KJV:
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD **possessed me** in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Proverbs 8:23 **I was set up from everlasting**, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Proverbs 8:24 When there were no depths, **I was brought forth**; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Proverbs 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was **I brought forth**
Wakeup,What exactly do you think “brought forth” means? Would you ever claim that Jehovah Himself was “brought forth”? Of course not, because you know that the phrase “brought forth” implies a beginning of existence, and it implies a greater one who brought the lesser one forth.
Agreed?
Also, what does it mean that wisdom was “set up from everlasting”? Don't the words “I was set up” imply some sort of activity going on by someone else? For example, WHO set wisdom up? Wisdom says he was set up. By WHOM?
And what about Jehovah? Was Jehovah ever “set up”? Can Jehovah ever say, “I was set up”? Of course not, because Jehovah truly IS “from everlasting”, nor is there anyone greater than Him that could “set Him up”.
And how does an activity, like “being set up”, carry on FROM ETERNITY?
Has this Word been continually IN THE PROCESS of being “set up” from eternity? How long does it take God to actually set him up? Eternity? Wakeup, these are just a couple of things for you to think about. You need to know that if you accept the KJV's translation, LOTS of things don't add up.
Also, you can't just make the empty claim that “no one is born in heaven” – and expect us to just take you at your word. How would YOU know?
You and journey sometimes spend too much time imagining differences that aren't even there. For one example, you guys imagine a difference between a “being” and a “creation”…. when you know that human BEINGS are CREATIONS.
For another, you guys imagine a difference between “being born” and “being created”…….. when you know that human beings are both BORN and CREATED.
And now you're imagining that the words “born” and “given birth” must automatically include a human woman and her uterus.
But wasn't Jesus the “firstBORN from the dead” also? What does that phrase mean? Does it mean “death” actually has a uterus, and literally gave birth to Jesus?
Of course not. It means he was the first one to COME INTO EXISTENCE again after being dead.
So “firstborn of every creature” logically means that Jesus was the first one to COME INTO EXISTENCE out of every creature who has ever existed.
Also consider that Jesus has spirit brothers in heaven. He is the firstborn Son out of MYRIADS of spirit sons of God. And that means God has “borne” many spirit sons, of whom Jesus was the first.
So just like I could say that YOU are both “born” AND a “creation”, the same things are said about Jesus. He was “born” AND he is the beginning of the CREATION of God.
I hope some of this is starting to sink in, Wakeup.
MikeB.
Quote
What exactly do you think “brought forth” means? Would you ever claim that Jehovah Himself was “brought forth”? Of course not, because you know that the phrase “brought forth” implies a beginning of existence, and it implies a greater one who brought the lesser one forth.BRINGING FORTH MEANS BRINGING OUT.
IN THIS CASE; IS FROM INSIDE GOD TO THE OUTSIDE.
IN THE CASE OF HUMAN BIRTH,
IT MEANS FROM INSIDE THE WOMB; OUT.Quote
Agreed?NO.
Quote
Also, what does it mean that wisdom was “set up from everlasting”? Don't the words “I was set up” imply some sort of activity going on by someone else? For example, WHO set wisdom up? Wisdom says he was set up. By WHOM?WISDOM IS IN THE WORD OF GOD.
BROUGHT FORTH,SET UP, AT CREATION DAY.
GOD'S WISDOM IS DISPLAYED FOR ALL TO SEE.Quote
And what about Jehovah? Was Jehovah ever “set up”? Can Jehovah ever say, “I was set up”? Of course not, because Jehovah truly IS “from everlasting”, nor is there anyone greater than Him that could “set Him up”.JEHOVAH WAS NOT SET UP,BUT HIS WORD AND WISDOM
WAS SET UP AT CREATION DAY.Quote
And how does an activity, like “being set up”, carry on FROM ETERNITY? Has this Word been continually IN THE PROCESS of being “set up” from eternity? How long does it take God to actually set him up? Eternity?GOD GAVE HIS OWN WORD A FORM(SET UP)
SAYING: IN **THE BEGINNING** WAS THE WORD.Quote
Wakeup, these are just a couple of things for you to think about. You need to know that if you accept the KJV's translation, LOTS of things don't add up.I HAVE FOUND THE KJV IN HARMONY.
THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS FOUND IN IT;IF UNDERSTOOD CORRECTLY.Quote
Also, you can't just make the empty claim that “no one is born in heaven” – and expect us to just take you at your word. How would YOU know?ANGELS ARE CREATED;NOT BORN IN HEAVEN.
ALL ARE CREATED BY THE CREATOR;NOT BORN.
GOD CREATED ALL THINGS;NOT GAVE BIRTH TO ALL THINGS.Quote
You and journey sometimes spend too much time imagining differences that aren't even there. For one example, you guys imagine a difference between a “being” and a “creation”…. when you know that human BEINGS are CREATIONS.GOD IS A BEING.
HIS WORD IS A BEING.
WE ARE ALSO CALLED *HUMAN* BEINGS.
NOTICE THE WORD HUMAN.(MAN).
WE ARE NOT BEINGS;BUT HUMAN BEINGS.Quote
For another, you guys imagine a difference between “being born” and “being created”…….. when you know that human beings are both BORN and CREATED.OUR FATHERS AND MOTHERS WERE CREATED.
ADAM WAS NOT BORN. GOD CREATED ADAM.Quote
And now you're imagining that the words “born” and “given birth” must automatically include a human woman and her uterus.YES; GOD DID NOT GIVE BIRTH TO HIS ANGELS.
HE CREATED ALL HIS ANGELS.ALL WERE MADE.Quote
But wasn't Jesus the “firstBORN from the dead” also? What does that phrase mean? Does it mean “death” actually has a uterus, and literally gave birth to Jesus?THE DEAD SAINTS WILL BE BORN OF THE SPIRIT,WITH
NO PHYSICAL UTERUS.
AND JESUS WAS THE FIRST.Quote
Of course not. It means he was the first one to COME INTO EXISTENCE again after being dead.JESUS EXISTED AS A MAN,THEN REBORN OF THE SPIRIT
AFTER HIS DEATH.BORN ONE MORE TIME.(BORN AGAIN).
HE WAS NOT BORN THREE TIMES.Quote
So “firstborn of every creature” logically means that Jesus was the first one to COME INTO EXISTENCE out of every creature who has ever existed.YES;THE FIRST BORN OUT OF EVERY CREATURE;FOR HE WAS A MAN.NOW THE FIRST BORN IN SPIRIT.FIRST BORN OF THE DEAD.
HE WAS NOT THE FIRST BABY BORN ON EARTH.Quote
Also consider that Jesus has spirit brothers in heaven. He is the firstborn Son out of MYRIADS of spirit sons of God. And that means God has “borne” many spirit sons, of whom Jesus was the first.CONSIDER THIS SCRIPTURE:THAT YOU JUST CONTRADICTED.
WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT **ANYTHING** MADE THAT WAS MADE. YOU **ADDED ON; THESE WORDS**:EXEPT; THE WORD WAS CREATED BY GOD.THERE IS A PENALTY TO ADDING ANYTHING TO THE WRITTEN WORD'S MEANING.Quote
So just like I could say that YOU are both “born” AND a “creation”, the same things are said about Jesus. He was “born” AND he is the beginning of the CREATION of God.NO; WE ARE BORN OF A CREATED FATHER AND MOTHER.
THE MAN JESUS WAS ALSO BORN OF A CREATED MOTHER,
WITH A HEAVENLY FATHER.THIS IS GOD'S WAY IN TRANFORMING HIS WORD INTO FLESH.FROM SPIRIT TO FLESH.
ITS TIME TO SEE THINGS FROM ABOVE;NOT FROM BELOW.
THIS KNOWLEDGE ONLY CAN COME FROM ABOVE.wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
I just spent 15 minutes refuting the things you said in your previous post. But then I thought things were getting too drawn out. And I know I'll never get to the bottom of ANYTHING with you if we keep touching just the surface of EVERYTHING. So I deleted the post.
It's time to slow it down, and get to the BOTTOM of these things – one thing at a time.
Quote JEHOVAH WAS NOT SET UP,BUT HIS WORD AND WISDOM WAS SET UP AT CREATION DAY.
Was it “at creation day”? Or was it “from everlasting”? Which one?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 27 2014,12:45) Hi Wakeup, I just spent 15 minutes refuting the things you said in your previous post. But then I thought things were getting too drawn out. And I know I'll never get to the bottom of ANYTHING with you if we keep touching just the surface of EVERYTHING. So I deleted the post.
It's time to slow it down, and get to the BOTTOM of these things – one thing at a time.
Quote JEHOVAH WAS NOT SET UP,BUT HIS WORD AND WISDOM WAS SET UP AT CREATION DAY.
Was it “at creation day”? Or was it “from everlasting”? Which one?
Mike B.The Word *OF* God and wisdom was *IN* God
BEFORE creation started.(God had not spoken).(nothing was created).There was only God in existence.(Gods Word was in God's mind from everlasting).
Then just *BEFORE* God decided to create things.First
God brought forth his Word(He spoke) and gave Him (His Word) a form.
With Him(Word) came also wisdom in Him.
Then HE(the Word) created all things.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 26 2014,21:19) Mike B. The Word *OF* God and wisdom was *IN* God
BEFORE creation started.
And were these things already living breathing BEINGS while they were “in God”?Were they entities that lived inside of God like God was their house or something?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2014,11:57) Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 26 2014,21:19) Mike B. The Word *OF* God and wisdom was *IN* God
BEFORE creation started.
And were these things already living breathing BEINGS while they were “in God”?Were they entities that lived inside of God like God was their house or something?
MIke B.God is not the house of *SOMETHING*.
IN GOD, IS HIS WORD,WISDOM,THE HS,LOVE.
THE WORD IS A HE.
WISDOM,IS GOD'S WISDOM.
THE HS IS A HE.
LOVE IS, GOD'S LOVE.
YOU DONT KNOW THE GOD YOU SUPPOSE TO WORSHIP.
AND JESUS YOU SUPPOSE TO WORSHIP.
NO ONE KNOWS GOD AND HIS SON,UNLESS HIS SON HAS REVEALED IT TO THE PERSON.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2014,04:04) Wakeup, Were these things living breathing beings while they were still in God? YES or NO?
Mike B.All of God is alive,living.
His Word is a living Word;With a form/shape like us.
Or rather we like Him.
His HS is a living spirit,no form;but spirit.
He teaches us all spiritual things.
He must be alive.God is a spirit,and all of God is living;alive.
God has power;his Word has power;his HS has power.Yes.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 03 2014,20:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2014,04:04) Wakeup, Were these things living breathing beings while they were still in God? YES or NO?
Yes.
So from eternity, there existed THREE living beings: God, God's Word, and God's Holy Spirit?Surely you are confused, Wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2014,12:32) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 03 2014,20:53) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2014,04:04) Wakeup, Were these things living breathing beings while they were still in God? YES or NO?
Yes.
So from eternity, there existed THREE living beings: God, God's Word, and God's Holy Spirit?Surely you are confused, Wakeup.
Mike B.One God with all his powers in Him.
God is a spirit,and He containes all things good.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2014,10:57) One God, but THREE living, thinking entities – each with their own will?
Not so Mike;that is how you see it.
God is *A SPIRIT* in HIM is HIS WORD.
His spoken Words starts from His mind.HIS spirit of truth.(HS).
HIS spirit of creating.
HIS spirit of wisdom.
HIS spirit of love.
HIS spirit of judgement.
HIS spirit of ruling.
HIS SPIRIT of control.
God is the fountain of clear waters.
All creation is framed by the Word *OF* God.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 06 2014,20:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2014,10:57) One God, but THREE living, thinking entities – each with their own will?
Not so Mike;that is how you see it.
No, that is how YOU seem to see it, Wakeup.I see it like this:
First, there was only God. Then later, God brought forth a different living, thinking, breathing entity who had a will of his own, but chose to obey the God who brought him forth into existence.
Then, through that first creation, God brought forth all kinds of other living, thinking, breathing entities who all had their own wills. Many of those chose to obey the God who brought them forth into existence, and a few of them decided not to.
Wakeup, I don't think you ever answered this:
Who do you think the first being God ever created is/was?
Mike B.
Quote
First, there was only God. Then later, God brought forth a different living, thinking, breathing entity who had a will of his own, but chose to obey the God who brought him forth into existence.NO; NOT THE WILL OF HIS OWN.
ALL IS OF THE WILL OF GOD.
GOD CAN MAKE THE STONES GLORIFY HIM.Quote
Then, through that first creation, God brought forth all kinds of other living, thinking, breathing entities who all had their own wills. Many of those chose to obey the God who brought them forth into existence, and a few of them decided not to.IT SO HAPPENS THAT THE BEING BROUGHT FORTH; IS GODS OWN WORD. GOD IS SPEAKING THROUGH HIM,AT ALL TIMES.
Quote
Wakeup, I don't think you ever answered this:.
WHY IS IT THAT SOME HERE CAN PICK UP THE FREQUENCY?
LETS PUT IT THIS WAY: GOD IS IN HEAVEN;AND HIS MOUTH IS FLESH, AND IS ON EARTH. GOD IN HEAVEN,SPEAKING
THROUGH HIS MOUTH PIECE ON EARH.
THIS IS AS SIMPLE AS I CAN PUT IT.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 08 2014,01:07) Mike B. Quote (mikeboll @ 64) First, there was only God. Then later, God brought forth a different living, thinking, breathing entity who had a will of his own, but chose to obey the God who brought him forth into existence. NO; NOT THE WILL OF HIS OWN.
But you've said that the Word “obeyed” God, right?The word “obey” implies a person who has his own free will, but does what his master tells him to do anyway.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 08 2014,01:07) ALL IS OF THE WILL OF GOD.
Not so. We all have free wills. And Jesus also had his own will, but CHOSE to do God's will. He didn't HAVE TO do God's will………. he made that CHOICE. Satan, angels, demons, and human beings also all have that CHOICE, Wakeup. Some CHOOSE to do God's will, and some don't.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,01:05) Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 08 2014,01:07) Mike B. Quote (mikeboll @ 64) First, there was only God. Then later, God brought forth a different living, thinking, breathing entity who had a will of his own, but chose to obey the God who brought him forth into existence. NO; NOT THE WILL OF HIS OWN.
But you've said that the Word “obeyed” God, right?The word “obey” implies a person who has his own free will, but does what his master tells him to do anyway.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 08 2014,01:07) ALL IS OF THE WILL OF GOD.
Not so. We all have free wills. And Jesus also had his own will, but CHOSE to do God's will. He didn't HAVE TO do God's will………. he made that CHOICE. Satan, angels, demons, and human beings also all have that CHOICE, Wakeup. Some CHOOSE to do God's will, and some don't.
Mike B.The Word of God can not refuse what God has to say.
His prayer: Not my will Father,but thy will.
Thy will be done on earth as in heaven.(Can your word refuse to come out)?
(When it is in your mind)?
(Can your word say; what your mind does not want to say)?Yes;God created us with *own will* to choose.
And that also is God's will, to be that way.
He wants us to love Him with all our hearts and souls,and strength.Not force us to Love Him.God is just warning us;what will happen if we love the
world more than Him. We still make the choice,to follow his teachings or not.wakeup.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 08 2014,08:33) Mike B. The Word of God can not refuse what God has to say.
His prayer: Not my will Father, but thy will.
Your second line contradicts your first, Wakeup. If the Word of God couldn't possibly refuse to do what the Father wants him to do, then he would have no will of his own in the first place.Yet the fact that Jesus DISTINGUISHES his own will from his Father's in your second line tells us that he does indeed have a free will of his own, right?
Jesus said he always does what pleases his Father and God. That statement, in and of itself, tells us that has the choice to either do what pleases his Father or not. He, being the good son, always makes the right choice.
But don't lose sight of the fact that it IS a choice. Jesus is not a robot.
Also, don't forget that the Word of God was TEMPTED while on earth, Wakeup. What good would it have been to TEMPT a being that couldn't possibly make the wrong choice?
You need to think some of these things out, Wakeup. Your doctrine is collapsing in on itself.
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