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Quote (Wakeup @ April 17 2014,22:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2014,11:39) Wakeup, 1. Was our heavenly Father Jehovah the son who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Will the son who was born to us someday BECOME our heavenly Father Jehovah? YES or NO?
Mike B.1. No.
2.No.wakeup.
Then are you able to understand that this child's future title, “everlasting father”, has nothing at all to do with him being called our heavenly Father Jehovah?Can you see that “everlasting father” doesn't mean “Jehovah” – but instead refers to this child someday being our “everlasting BENEFACTOR” – as the word “father” is often used in Hebrew scripture? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2014,05:04) Quote (Wakeup @ April 17 2014,22:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2014,11:39) Wakeup, 1. Was our heavenly Father Jehovah the son who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Will the son who was born to us someday BECOME our heavenly Father Jehovah? YES or NO?
Mike B.1. No.
2.No.wakeup.
Then are you able to understand that this child's future title, “everlasting father”, has nothing at all to do with him being called our heavenly Father Jehovah?Can you see that “everlasting father” doesn't mean “Jehovah” – but instead refers to this child someday being our “everlasting BENEFACTOR” – as the word “father” is often used in Hebrew scripture? YES or NO?
Mike B.No.
wakeup.
What's the other option, Wakeup? If the child born to us wasn't the Father, and wasn't going to become the Father – why do you think he will be called by a title that means he is our heavenly Father?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 20 2014,11:37) What's the other option, Wakeup? If the child born to us wasn't the Father, and wasn't going to become the Father – why do you think he will be called by a title that means he is our heavenly Father?
Mike B.You seem can not absorb this.
God has his own Word.
His Word is God; BUT HIS WORD.
His right hand is God;BUT HIS RIGHT HAND.
God always works through His Word.
God's Word is no stranger to Him;He is His own.If I utter a lie; it is I, that is a liar.
If I am powerful; My word has power.
If I am weak; my word is weak.
My word can not exceed me.
I make the decision, what to say.
My word is no stranger to me.wakeup.
Wakeup,
I AM able to absorb clear and direct ANSWERS to my questions.
1. The child who was born to us was NOT the everlasting Father, Jehovah.
2. The child who was born to us never BECAME the everlasting Father, Jehovah.
Why then would one of the titles of this child who was born to us be “The Everlasting Father, Jehovah”?
Do you understand the question?
If the child ISN'T our heavenly Father, and the child NEVER BECAME our heavenly Father, then why on earth would he be CALLED our heavenly Father?
I can see you are stuck on what you now realize was a serious flaw in your previous understanding of Isaiah 9:6.
And just once, I would LOVE for you to say, “Dang it Mike! You're right. There is no reason for this child to be called our heavenly Father, since he never was, and never will be, our heavenly Father.
And I now realize from the scriptures you showed me – like where Job called himself a 'father to the poor' – that the word 'father' sometimes refers to an unrelated BENEFACTOR, and not to a literal father.
Knowing these things, I concur with you that the title 'everlasting father' does NOT refer to this child being our heavenly Father Jehovah, but to him being an 'everlasting BENEFACTOR' to us all.
Thanks for taking time out of your life to show me these things I had never considered before. I will now adjust my understanding accordingly.”
Just ONCE I'd like to read something like that from you, Wakeup. But instead, I painstakingly lead you to these kinds of OBVIOUS truths – just for you to go off on a tangent about things I don't understand – because you would rather hold to your previous illogical and unscriptural belief than to ADJUST that belief in the face of the facts.
Where did all that pride come from, Wakeup? From God?
MikeB.
No it's not pride; I can not say you are right;when you are not. I wish you were right.
Sometimes I call my dad; father; but he is not my spiritual Father. Job is the father of the poor,but not spiritual father.
The Word of God had lead us to God;therefore is he our everlasting Father;THE WORD OF OUR FATHER we follow,
to get to know the Father.
There is no other way we can know the Father,but by the Word of the Father.All things were made by the Word,and so will we be made perfect;in spirit: BY THE SAME WORD.
You see, all things are made by Him.
When we will be as the angels; we are made by Him also.When the earth will be renewed: it would be by Him also.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 20 2014,17:24) Job is the father of the poor,but not spiritual father.
No Wakeup,Job's children were RICH, man! He wasn't any kind of literal father to any poor people. But in Biblical times, a BENEFACTOR was referred to as a “father”.
For example, if your family was poor, and your next door neighbor consistently helped you guys out with food and money and stuff like that, you would refer to that neighbor as your “father”. You would say things like, “Thank you for the food, father.” He wasn't LITERALLY any relation to you at all, but since he was your BENEFACTOR, you called him “father”.
Same as Elisha called Elijah, “my father”. (2 Kings 2:12) Same as King Joash called Elisha, “my father”. (2 Kings 13:14)
There are quite a few other scriptural instances of the same thing, Wakeup. I would dig them up for you if I thought for a minute you would accept them and adjust your understanding of 9:6 accordingly. But things like that take me much time and effort. Why should I do it if you're not going to believe it anyway?
Quote (Wakeup @ April 20 2014,17:24) The Word of God had lead us to God;therefore is he our everlasting Father
Okay….. then explain the “Prince of Peace” part to me. If the Word is on the same level as our everlasting Father – to the point that we can CALL him our everlasting heavenly Father – then what does it mean that he is called “Prince”, and not “King” in Isaiah 9:6?Surely our TRUE everlasting Father has never been a “prince” of anyone or anything. So how is this “Everlasting Father” who was born to us also a PRINCE?
Can the Word be both a prince and our everlasting heavenly Father?
Mike B.
God's Word is:
Everlasting Father.
Creator.
king of kings.
Lord of Lords.
The redeemer.
High priest.
King of salem.
The lord of host.
Alpha & omega.God's Word will come back in to Him,as it was before the creation.
Once all things are finished and done.
We will deal straight with God;face to face.
We can hear his real voice.wakeup.
Wakeup,
1. I didn't notice “prince” on your list. Why?
2. Do you really think our everlasting heavenly Father is a “priest”?
3. When God's Word “comes back into Him”, what will become of our Lord Jesus Christ? Will he cease to exist? Will he cease to be the one who sits at the right hand of our God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 22 2014,11:27) Wakeup, 1. I didn't notice “prince” on your list. Why?
2. Do you really think our everlasting heavenly Father is a “priest”?
3. When God's Word “comes back into Him”, what will become of our Lord Jesus Christ? Will he cease to exist? Will he cease to be the one who sits at the right hand of our God?
Mike B.1. King of salem means king of peace.(salem=peace).
He is also called prince of peace.2. Yes'; all teachings is of His.
It is His church. He is the head.3. What will happen to our Lord Jesus you ask?
Well nothing: He simply returns to what He was before
creation. After all His work is done.
And the Word was God,once more.a. The Word was transformed into flesh;
b. then back into spirit because He still has a job to do.And when all his work is accomplished;God Himself will
take over.
c. The Word will be IN God. And God will speak straight
from His mouth.wakeup.
1. Do you realize that a prince is LOWER than a king? Is the Father really a PRINCE of anything, Wakeup? You said, “NO” before. Have you now changed your mind because you found yourself in a corner?
2. A priest is a mediator BETWEEN a congregation and the God it serves. Being a priest means you have a God of your own, who you serve as priest. God cannot be a priest, Wakeup.
3. Are you saying that the PERSON we know as Jesus Christ will NOT live forever, like the scriptures say? Instead, that PERSON will cease to exist, and God's literal spoken word will just go back inside of God?
journey, what do you say about Wakeup's latest three claims?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 24 2014,13:52) 1. Do you realize that a prince is LOWER than a king? Is the Father really a PRINCE of anything, Wakeup? You said, “NO” before. Have you now changed your mind because you found yourself in a corner? 2. A priest is a mediator BETWEEN a congregation and the God it serves. Being a priest means you have a God of your own, who you serve as priest. God cannot be a priest, Wakeup.
3. Are you saying that the PERSON we know as Jesus Christ will NOT live forever, like the scriptures say? Instead, that PERSON will cease to exist, and God's literal spoken word will just go back inside of God?
journey, what do you say about Wakeup's latest three claims?
Mike B.Jesus is:
1.The mediator between God and man.
2.The messiah.
3.The Son of God.
4. Master/Rabie.
5.The king of kings.
6.The Word of God.
7.King of pace(salem).
8.Lord of Lords.
9.Prince of peace.
10.The Alpha and the Omega.
11.The deliverer.
12. The son of David.
13 The bright and morning star.
14.The lamb of God.
15.The light of the world.
16. The tree of life.
17. The seed of the woman with the twelve stars.
18. The branch.(of what tree?)?(who is that tree)?He is not just a spokesman.
( a caterpillar that has turned into a butterfly,is still in existence; a different existence).
wakeup.
1. Agreed. Therefore, not God Himself, but someone completely OTHER THAN God.
2. Agreed. Jesus is one of the many anointed ones OF God.
3. Agreed. Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
4. Agreed. Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
5. Agreed. Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
6. Agreed. As God's main spokesman, Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
7. Wrong. Jesus is called the PRINCE of Peace, but never the “KING of Peace”.
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed.
10. Wrong. No LEGITIMATE scripture says such a thing.
11. Agreed. Jesus is the one THROUGH WHOM God has delivered us.
12. Agreed……… according to the flesh.
13. Agreed. And in scripture, “morning stars” are angels. Jesus is the brightest of these.
14. Agreed. Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb that God offered up on our behalf.
15. Agreed. When he was about to leave this world, he passed that title on to his disciples.
16. Disagree. I don't know what scripture tells you such a thing.
17. Likely.
18. Agreed. He is both the Root AND the Branch of David – “branch” referring to him being the offspring of David, according to the flesh.
Now we can discuss the ones on which we disagree if you want to, but you must first ANSWER the questions from my last post to you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,07:06) 1. Agreed. Therefore, not God Himself, but someone completely OTHER THAN God. 2. Agreed. Jesus is one of the many anointed ones OF God.
3. Agreed. Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
4. Agreed. Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
5. Agreed. Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
6. Agreed. As God's main spokesman, Jesus is someone completely OTHER THAN God.
7. Wrong. Jesus is called the PRINCE of Peace, but never the “KING of Peace”.
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed.
10. Wrong. No LEGITIMATE scripture says such a thing.
11. Agreed. Jesus is the one THROUGH WHOM God has delivered us.
12. Agreed……… according to the flesh.
13. Agreed. And in scripture, “morning stars” are angels. Jesus is the brightest of these.
14. Agreed. Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb that God offered up on our behalf.
15. Agreed. When he was about to leave this world, he passed that title on to his disciples.
16. Disagree. I don't know what scripture tells you such a thing.
17. Likely.
18. Agreed. He is both the Root AND the Branch of David – “branch” referring to him being the offspring of David, according to the flesh.
Now we can discuss the ones on which we disagree if you want to, but you must first ANSWER the questions from my last post to you.
Mike B.7. Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek **king of Salem** brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
King of salem means: king of peace.
wakeup.
Mike B.
We are discussing two different Jesus's here.
1.My Jesus.The Word of God.
2.Your Jesus. A spokesman of God.1. I believe; the Word was made flesh.
2.You believe; a created spokesman carried the Word;
and he was made flesh.(could be any of the angels).1.I believe; the Word is coming at the second coming.
(rev 19).
2.You believe; a spokesman is coming at the second coming.
A created angel,like one of the many angels.1.I believe; the Word will be king of kings.
2.You believe; a created spokesman will be king of kings.
(an angel will be king of kings).1.I believe; the Word created all things. (as in scripture).
2. You believe; **not all things**: the spokesman was *not*
created by the Word.1. I believe; all must come to God through the Word.
2. You believe; all must come to God through the
spokesman.(an angel).1. I believe; He is FROM everlasting.
2.You believe; the spokesman will be for everlasting.
*(I say: He had no life before he was created)*.
*(FOR everlasting, is not equal to FROM everlasting)*.1. I believe all prophets, apostles, and angels are
spokemans of God.
2. You agreed; but Jesus is *THE* spokesman.1. I believe; Jesus is the spirit Word of God,made flesh.
2. You believe he is separate from God;created as all the
angels were.1. I believe; God gave his only begotten Son to the world.
2. You believe; God created a creature(angel) and gave him
to the world. *(He could have given one of the billions
of angels to be sacrificed)*.Mike. You believe and preach another Jesus.
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 27 2014,18:12) Mike. You believe and preach another Jesus.
Agreed. The one I preach is the one taught in the scriptures. You have made up your own.Btw…………..
1. I need you to answer the three questions at the top of this page…….. the ones you keep ignoring.
2. Jesus isn't Melchizadek, and so your point about Melchizadek being an EARTLHY “king of peace” is neither here nor there in our discussion.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,14:14) Quote (Wakeup @ April 27 2014,18:12) Mike. You believe and preach another Jesus.
Agreed. The one I preach is the one taught in the scriptures. You have made up your own.Btw…………..
1. I need you to answer the three questions at the top of this page…….. the ones you keep ignoring.
2. Jesus isn't Melchizadek, and so your point about Melchizadek being an EARTLHY “king of peace” is neither here nor there in our discussion.
Mike B.You dont believe that Melchizedek is the king of salem(peace) and of righteousness??
Is there a second king of peace, and of righteousness??
Is God not the one and only??Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; ***that in *all things* he might have the preeminence***.
Now; dont say that I believe; that God died on the cross.
God's own Word made flesh died on the cross.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Are you saying God was Melchizadek……. the “one and only king of peace”?
Listen carefully: A priest OF God cannot possibly BE God.
Melchizadek wasn't God. And Melchizadek wasn't Jesus either, since Jesus was promised a priesthood in the order OF Melchizadek.
Besides, Jesus isn't called the KING of peace, Wakeup. He is called the PRINCE of peace. A prince is of LOWER status than a king.
That doesn't mean that Jesus is lower than the EARTHLY king of peace Melchizadek. The lowest in heaven is greater than the highest on earth, remember?
David was “King of Jerusalem”. But he was the EARTHLY King of Jerusalem. That doesn't in any way equate David with Jehovah – who is the HEAVENLY King of Jerusalem.
Melchizadek was an earlier EARTHLY king/priest of Salem (Jerusalem). David was a later EARTHLY king/priest of Jerusalem. Neither of them are equal to Jehovah, who has always been the HEAVENLY King of Jerusalem.
Mike B.
Understand,that Jesus is not a high priest second to Melchisedek. Of all things; he is the pre-eminence.(col).
JESUS IS SECOND TO NONE.Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
SPEAKING OF JESUS.
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
JESUS THE HIGH PRIEST.
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
JESUS THE HIGH PRIEST HAS PAST TO THE HEAVENS.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
JESUS WAS TEMPTED;YET WITHOUT SIN.
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
CHRIST THE HIGH PRIEST.
Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
JESUS DOES NOT FOLLOW AFTER ANOTHER PRIEST.
HE IS HIMSELF ALSO MELCHISEDEK.Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
JESUS CALLED OF GOD,AFTER HIMSELF(MELCHISEDEK).
Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
MELCHISEDEK WAS THE FORERUNNER OF JESUS,WHICH ALSO WAS MELCHISEDEK.
Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
WE HAVE *ONE KING* OF SALEM;AND ONE THE SAME KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. HIS NAME IS JESUS.
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but
**made like unto the Son of God**;
abideth a priest *continually*.(CONTINUALLY).MADE LIKE UNTO THE SON OF GOD:A PRIEST CONTINUALLY.
Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
MELCHISEDEK WAS NOT OF THE TRIBE OF LEVI.
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
THE PRIESTHOOD HAD BEEN CHANGED,FROM LEVI TO JUDA.
Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
JESUS WAS OF THE TRIBE OF JUDA;WHICH WAS NOT MENTIONED BY MOSES.
Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
THAT OTHER PRIEST IS ALSO JESUS: WHICH WAS MELCHISEDEK.
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
JESUS A PRIEST *FOR EVER* AFTER MELCHISEDEK.
WHICH IS AFTER HIMSELF.
JESUS IS SECOND TO NONE.Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
A PRIEST AFTER HIMSELF, WHO ALSO WAS MELCHISEDEK.
Hebrews 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Hebrews 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.ALL PRIESTS COULD NOT CONTINUE BECAUSE OF DEATH.
BUT JESUS CONTINUED FOR EVER.Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
JESUS OFFERED HIMSELF.HE DID NOT OFFERED ANIMALS,
AS THE OTHER PRIESTS DID.Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
PRIESTS HAVE INFIRMITIES.BUT THE SON IS CONSECTRATED FOR EVERMORE.
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
JESUS SITS ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY IN THE HEAVENS
Hebrews 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
YES; AND HE OFFERED HIMSELF.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ May 04 2014,01:34) JESUS DOES NOT FOLLOW AFTER ANOTHER PRIEST.
HE IS HIMSELF ALSO MELCHISEDEK.
You are either confused, or adding your own imaginations into the scriptures…… or both.Jesus is a King of Israel “after the order of David”. He sits on the throne OF David, right? Yet David Himself called Jesus “my Lord”, right? Jesus is greater than David, right?
Likewise, Jesus is a priest “after the order of Melchizadek”. Yet Jesus isn't Melchizadek any more than Jesus is literally “David, son of Jesse”.
Just like Jesus is greater than David – even though he is a king after the order of David – Jesus is also greater than the earthly priest Melchizadek – even though he is a priest “after the order of Melchizadek”.
Why do you keep adding MORE and MORE of your misunderstandings to this discussion before you've ADDRESSED the previous ones?
Answer those three questions at the top of this page first……… BEFORE you bring more misunderstanding into the discussion, okay?
We're still on Isaiah 9:6, Wakeup. Let's FINISH that one up before moving on to others, okay?
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