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Thank you Mike.
1.
Quote Jesus is God's firstborn Son. He is the first thing God ever created. He has been a separate being from the God who created him from the very moment that God created him. 2. Through this first being and Son, God then created all other things, including His other spirit sons, the universe, the
earth,mankind,etcAlow me to show the contradictions in your believe system.
And also have dissmised scriptures that dont fit in
your believe.You are free to make your own decision.1. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, *The mighty God,* ***The everlasting Father***, The Prince of Peace.
(JESUS).I know you have dismissed this scripture as false.
Because it contradicts your believe sustem.
If this can be done everytime: then where can one draw the line?2. John 1:3 All things were made by him; and
***without him was not *any thing* made that was made***.(ANYTHING THAT WAS MADE). (JESUS).This scripture also you need to dismiss as false.
Because it contradicts your believe system.1. He is from everlasting: so can not be created.
2.He made *ALL THINGS*, so God did not create him.
3.The word of God was not created;and *he is* the word of
God.Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last,
**which was dead, and is alive**; (JESUS).I know that you have also dismissed this scripture as false.
And so on, we go.Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, **the beginning** and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, **the Almighty**. (JESUS).
Revelation 1:11 Saying, **I am Alpha and Omega, the
first and the last**: (JESUS).
and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.I know that you have dismissed those scriptures as false,
as well.
We can go on and on dismissing scriptures that does not agree with our believes system.
This is not truly seeking the truth, But constructing own doctrine;by borrowing some of the scripture that can be used
for the basis.Revelation 22:12 And, behold, ***I come quickly; and my reward is with me***, to give every man according as his work shall be. (JESUS).
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.( JESUS).
You can not keep on dismissing scriptures you dont like.
But mans conscience will speak.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,18:11) Alow me to show the contradictions in your believe system. 1. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, *The mighty God,* ***The everlasting Father***, The Prince of Peace.
(JESUS).I know you have dismissed this scripture as false.
Because it contradicts your believe sustem.
If this can be done everytime: then where can one draw the line?
Where is the contradiction in that first one, Wakeup? I accept that scripture, and know that it is a prophecy about the coming Messiah, Jesus.Is Jesus a wonderful counselor? Of course. Is he a mighty god? Yep. Is he the Prince of Peace? Yes.
So all that's left is your misunderstanding about “everlasting father”.
I have explained this to you before, but I will try again. I will NOT leave this one particular subject until you and I have an understanding, Wakeup……. so don't try posting ANYTHING other than answers to my questions about “everlasting father”.
1. Do you really believe that our heavenly Father, Jehovah God Almighty, was the “child” and “son” who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Is our heavenly Father Jehovah the “Prince” of anything? Has He ever been a “PRINCE” of something? YES or NO?
3. Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.3a. Do you believe Job was speaking about LITERALLY being the father of poor people?
3b. Or are you able to see that the Hebrew word for “father” was OFTEN used in scripture as a reference to an UNRELATED benefactor?
Which one?
(I have many more scriptures I could show you, if you want to see the word “father” used in the “benefactor” sense in some other scriptures. If so, let me know.)
Okay, I have now asked you 3 simple questions, Wakeup. The first 2 require only a “YES” or a “NO”, and the third one is a simple multiple choice with only two choices.
To answer all three of them in a DIRECT and honest manner should take you about 32 seconds. So let's not DIVERT from these questions, or post a mile long manifesto, okay? I want DIRECT and SHORT answers to all three.
Ready, set, GO!
Quote (Wakeup @ April 09 2014,04:52) Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2014,09:38) Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,19:12) T. We want the spokesman beginning
Where he comes from, and what he really is.
Maybe you can tell us,because Mike refuses.wakeup.
I will tell you if you first tell me from where his father comes from
T.That means you can not,
or wont put yourself in jeopardy.
Dont know what you believe.(again; a question answered with a question).
wakeup.
why is my question synonymy of ignorance but yours are of enlightenment ,???I will answer you ;IF YOU FIRST ANSWER MINE
Quote (terraricca @ April 08 2014,19:27) why is my question synonymy of ignorance but yours are of enlightenment? 
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 09 2014,12:16) Quote (Wakeup @ April 08 2014,18:11) Alow me to show the contradictions in your believe system. 1. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, *The mighty God,* ***The everlasting Father***, The Prince of Peace.
(JESUS).I know you have dismissed this scripture as false.
Because it contradicts your believe sustem.
If this can be done everytime: then where can one draw the line?
Where is the contradiction in that first one, Wakeup? I accept that scripture, and know that it is a prophecy about the coming Messiah, Jesus.Is Jesus a wonderful counselor? Of course. Is he a mighty god? Yep. Is he the Prince of Peace? Yes.
So all that's left is your misunderstanding about “everlasting father”.
I have explained this to you before, but I will try again. I will NOT leave this one particular subject until you and I have an understanding, Wakeup……. so don't try posting ANYTHING other than answers to my questions about “everlasting father”.
1. Do you really believe that our heavenly Father, Jehovah God Almighty, was the “child” and “son” who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Is our heavenly Father Jehovah the “Prince” of anything? Has He ever been a “PRINCE” of something? YES or NO?
3. Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.3a. Do you believe Job was speaking about LITERALLY being the father of poor people?
3b. Or are you able to see that the Hebrew word for “father” was OFTEN used in scripture as a reference to an UNRELATED benefactor?
Which one?
(I have many more scriptures I could show you, if you want to see the word “father” used in the “benefactor” sense in some other scriptures. If so, let me know.)
Okay, I have now asked you 3 simple questions, Wakeup. The first 2 require only a “YES” or a “NO”, and the third one is a simple multiple choice with only two choices.
To answer all three of them in a DIRECT and honest manner should take you about 32 seconds. So let's not DIVERT from these questions, or post a mile long manifesto, okay? I want DIRECT and SHORT answers to all three.
Ready, set, GO!
Mike B.You failed to answer that He is from everlasting.
How can a created being be from everlasting?
Answer,please.wakeup.
Which scripture do you think says Jesus is “from everlasting”?
Also, I await three DIRECT answers to three SIMPLE questions.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2014,12:42) Which scripture do you think says Jesus is “from everlasting”? Also, I await three DIRECT answers to three SIMPLE questions.
Mike b.1. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, *The mighty God,*
***The everlasting Father***, The Prince of Peace.(JESUS).A created being can not be from everlasting.
Are you going to dismiss this part?wakeup.
Wakeup,
Do you know that some of us will eventually be ETERNAL beings?
Being made eternal will not mean any of us were FROM eternity, right?
Therefore, the fact that Jesus WILL BE our everlasting benefactor (father) says nothing about Jesus being FROM eternity.
See? You are reading the words “from eternity” into that passage.
Now could you please directly answer all three of those other questions?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2014,10:44) Wakeup, Do you know that some of us will eventually be ETERNAL beings?
Being made eternal will not mean any of us were FROM eternity, right?
Therefore, the fact that Jesus WILL BE our everlasting benefactor (father) says nothing about Jesus being FROM eternity.
See? You are reading the words “from eternity” into that passage.
Now could you please directly answer all three of those other questions?
Mike B.FROM EVERLASTING;NOT WILL BE EVERLASTING.
But let's move on one step up,
by discussing the prophesies.
We nedd to know what is coming.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 10 2014,19:33) Mike B. FROM EVERLASTING;NOT WILL BE EVERLASTING.
Wakeup,The teaching in Isaiah 9:6 is that this son who is to be born WILL BE called these things. So there is not a “FROM eternity” teaching there – only a “WILL BE called eternal benefactor (father)” teaching.
You are adding the “FROM eternity” into the teaching.
Now, would you PLEASE directly answer these three simple questions:
1. Do you really believe that our heavenly Father, Jehovah God Almighty, was the “child” and “son” who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Is our heavenly Father Jehovah the “Prince” of anything? Has He ever been a “PRINCE” of something? YES or NO?
3. Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor…….3a. Do you believe Job was speaking about LITERALLY being the father of poor people?
3b. Or are you able to see that the Hebrew word for “father” was used in scripture as a reference to an UNRELATED benefactor?
Which one?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,12:32) Quote (Wakeup @ April 10 2014,19:33) Mike B. FROM EVERLASTING;NOT WILL BE EVERLASTING.
Wakeup,The teaching in Isaiah 9:6 is that this son who is to be born WILL BE called these things. So there is not a “FROM eternity” teaching there – only a “WILL BE called eternal benefactor (father)” teaching.
You are adding the “FROM eternity” into the teaching.
Now, would you PLEASE directly answer these three simple questions:
1. Do you really believe that our heavenly Father, Jehovah God Almighty, was the “child” and “son” who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Is our heavenly Father Jehovah the “Prince” of anything? Has He ever been a “PRINCE” of something? YES or NO?
3. Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor…….3a. Do you believe Job was speaking about LITERALLY being the father of poor people?
3b. Or are you able to see that the Hebrew word for “father” was used in scripture as a reference to an UNRELATED benefactor?
Which one?
Mike b.Quote The teaching in Isaiah 9:6 is that this son who is to be born WILL BE called these things. So there is not a “FROM eternity” teaching there – only a “WILL BE called eternal benefactor (father)” teaching. He will not be called from everlasting if he was not
from everlasting.That would be a lie.
Not anything, nor angels are called from everlasting.
We are not from everlasting, but will be with God forever.You are adding the “FROM eternity” into the teaching.
Now, would you PLEASE directly answer these three simple questions:
What is written in scripture should be taught as it is written.
Quote
1. Do you really believe that our heavenly Father, Jehovah God Almighty, was the “child” and “son” who was born to us? YES or NO?The answer is NO. But his Word was the child.
The Word was made flesh.NOT GOD.
God never became flesh,but His Word was made flesh.
Quote
2. Is our heavenly Father Jehovah the “Prince” of anything? Has He ever been a “PRINCE” of something? YES or NO?The answer is NO, NOT GOD, but His Word is the prince of peace. Melchisedek was not God,but the Word of God.
He is the first king of peace and of righteousness.Quote
3. Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor…….3a. Do you believe Job was speaking about LITERALLY being the father of poor people?
No not litterally,that was his parable.
Quote
3b. Or are you able to see that the Hebrew word for “father” was used in scripture as a reference to an UNRELATED benefactor?We have one Father in heaven,and one Jesus,the Word made flesh. There is the Father and the Son,this does not change.The Word remains the Word,forever.
wakeup.
Quote
Which one?The father is the father of the Word made flesh.
The word is not God, but the Word OF God.
And the Word became his Son in the flesh.
God's Word was with God from the beginning.
But was God before the beginning.
This is your stumbling block.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 12 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) The teaching in Isaiah 9:6 is that this son who is to be born WILL BE called these things. So there is not a “FROM eternity” teaching there – only a “WILL BE called eternal benefactor (father)” teaching.
He will not be called from everlasting if he was not
from everlasting. That would be a lie.
Exactly. And the FACT of the matter is that Isaiah 9:6 says NOTHING about “FROM everlasting”, does it?Quote (Wakeup @ April 12 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) You are adding the “FROM eternity” into the teaching.
What is written in scripture should be taught as it is written.
But “FROM everlasting” is NOT written in that scripture. Are you SERIOUSLY going to keep PRETENDING that it is – just to drag this out?
Quote (Wakeup @ April 12 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1. Do you really believe that our heavenly Father, Jehovah God Almighty, was the “child” and “son” who was born to us? YES or NO?
The answer is NO.
So if the teaching in Isaiah 9:6 is about the SON who is to be born to us, and that SON is NOT our heavenly Father, then the titles this SON will be called have nothing to do with being called our heavenly Father.And that means “everlasting father” does NOT refer to God Almighty Himself, but to Jesus being an “everlasting BENEFACTOR” – as the word “father” is often used in scripture.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 12 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
2. Is our heavenly Father Jehovah the “Prince” of anything? Has He ever been a “PRINCE” of something? YES or NO?
The answer is NO, NOT GOD, but His Word is the prince of peace.
So once again, the titles mentioned in Isaiah 9:6 have NOTHING to do with our heavenly Father Jehovah. They are titles that are given to His SERVANT, who was born as a son to us.Again, this means that the title “everlasting father” has NOTHING to do with our heavenly Father Jehovah.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 12 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 3. Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor…….3a. Do you believe Job was speaking about LITERALLY being the father of poor people?
No not literally……..
Great. So then you can see that the word “father” was used in scripture to refer to a BENEFACTOR who was not literally the beneficiary's dad, right?The teaching in Job was that Job was a BENEFACTOR to poor people…… ie: he helped them out the best he could.
And the teaching in Isaiah 9:6 is that Jesus will be called “everlasting BENEFACTOR” – which of course he is. The word “father” in that verse doesn't speak about our heavenly Father Jehovah – because why on earth would this son who is born to us be called our heavenly Father Jehovah?
Instead, it is saying that Jesus will be our benefactor forever – helping us out the best he can – just like Job did for the poor.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 12 2014,20:06) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
3b. Or are you able to see that the Hebrew word for “father” was used in scripture as a reference to an UNRELATED benefactor?
We have one Father in heaven,and one Jesus,the Word made flesh. There is the Father and the Son,this does not change.
Well, you were doing pretty good up until this point, Wakeup. You were answering the actual questions I asked. That is how it is supposed to work.You have failed to answer this very last question. Please try again. If you need, I will list some other scriptures where a benefactor who is NOT literally someone's father is addressed as “my father”.
Here's just one of them:
2 Kings 2:12 King James Version
And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.Elisha called Elijah “my father”, Wakeup. But Elijah was not literally Elisha's father. Are you beginning to understand?
Mike.
What you are trying to proof is that:
The, *A god* created spokesman was a created spirit in heaven like angels were created.Then he was made flesh to carry the Word.and had to die for all the sins of the world.
One angel to die for all the sins of the world.AND HE IS:
1.THE MIGHTY GOD.2.THE EVERLASTING FATHER.
3.THE PRINCE OF PEACE.
4.THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.
5.THE FIRST AND THE LAST.
6.THE WORD WAS NOT GOD; BUT ONLY WITH GOD.
7.THE LORD OF DAVID.
8.AND HE IS OUR LORD JESUS A SERVANT OF GOD JUST TO
CARRY HIS WORD ON EARTH.9.GOD NEEDED SOMEONE TO CARRY HIS WORD AND TO
SPEAK: HE CAN NOT DO IT HIMSELF. HE IS ALWAYS
DEPENDANT ON SOME ONE.10.HE IS NOT THE LITTRAL WORD; **BUT CREATED BY
GOD** JUST TO CARRY THE WORD.HERE IS ANOTHER CONTRADICTION: WITHOUT HIM WAS *NOT* ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.
11.ONE CREATED MAN TO DIE FOR ALL ON THE EARTH.
TO TAKE AWAY ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD.You have the wrong Jesus.He is not just a created angel,
or (spirit)creature.
He is part of God himself.*BESIDE ME* THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
MY HANDS DID IT ALL.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 13 2014,19:55) Mike. What you are trying to proof is……………
A few of the things you mentioned are accurate, Wakeup. But right now, all I'm trying to show you is your misunderstanding of Isaiah 9:6. Let's see how I've done so far…………..1. Do you understand that the Father Jehovah is NOT the son who was born to us, and therefore the title “everlasting father” has nothing to do with our heavenly Father Jehovah?
2. Do you understand that Jesus is indeed a mighty god, and is called a god in at least 5 different scriptures – including Isaiah 9:6? Do you understand that being called a mighty god does NOT equate Jesus with the Almighty God, Jehovah?
3. Do you understand that Jehovah is not the PRINCE of anything or anyone, and therefore the title “Prince of Peace” also doesn't refer to the Father Jehovah?
4. Do you understand that “everlasting father” refers to Jesus being our everlasting BENEFACTOR, and not our literal father, nor our heavenly Father Jehovah?
5. To sum up, are you now aware that all of the titles mentioned in Isaiah 9:6 have to do with the child that was born to us, and NOT one of them refers to our heavenly Father Jehovah?
Once you have acknowledge for me that you've learned these things, I am happy to move on to your other points. But it makes no sense for me to move on to the other things if you are still confused about Isaiah 9:6.
Show me that you are learning, and I will teach you even more things.
Mike B.
I understand isaiah 9 allright; it is you that make a created being your everlasting Father.
Lets go from start.
John 1:1 *In the beginning* was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
YOU ACCEPT THE FIRST PART(WAS WITH GOD); BUT HAVE TO CHANGE THE SECOND PART(WAS GOD);
TO (WAS A GOD).John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
THE SAME(WORD), WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING.
WAS NOT CREATED IN THE BEGINNING TO BE WITH GOD.John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM. BUT YOU SAID: *EXCCEPT*
THE *A GOD* FOR HE WAS MADE BY GOD HIMSELF.
YOU HAD TO ALTER THE THE SENTENCE HERE ALSO.John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
JOHN SAID:IN HIM WAS LIFE;AND THE LIGHT.John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the.
darkness comprehended it not.THE LIGHT IS TRUTH.
QUESTION: WAS THERE NO TRUTH BEFORE HE WAS
CREATED? DID TRUTH COME THE DAY HE WAS
CREATED?? NOT BEFORE?John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM.JOHN DID NOT SAY; MADE BY GOD. ALL SPIRIT CREATURES WERE ALSO MADE BY HIM.
GOD SAID:ALL IS MADE BY HIM,AND FOR HIS PLEASURE??
BECAUSE HE IS GOD'S OWN WORD.John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
HE CAME TO *HIS OWN*;MEANING: ALL BELONGS TO HIM.
WHY NOT BELONG TO GOD??John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
HE GIVES POWER TO MANY TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD.
TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON **HIS NAME**.NOT GOD'S NAME; BUT HIS NAME.
HE SAID: I, AND THE FATHER *ARE ONE*
NOT AS: THE FATHER IS ONE; AND I AM ANOTHER ONE.HE ALSO SAID IN JOHN: I PROCEEDED *OUT*OF MY FATHER,
I CAME *OUT* OF MY FATHER. FROM IN TO OUT.
NOT OUT OF HEAVEN.HE IS THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN.HE ALSO IS WORSHIPPED BY ALL CREATURES IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH AND IN THE SEA.
THIS IS BECAUSE HE IS THE WORD OF GOD HIMSLEF.
FOR GOD SAID: THERE IS NONE BESIDE ME.
THE ONE WITH GOD IS GOD'S OWN WORD.HE CAN ENTER IN AND OUT OF GOD.HE ALSO SITS IN THE THRONE WITH GOD, OR IN GOD.THERE IS NO SPOKESMAN OR CREATED SPIRIT BEING BESIDE GOD.
ALL THINGS ARE FRAMED BY THE WORD OF GOD.
NOT BY A CREATED BEING NEXT TO GOD.
GOD IS THE HUB OF ALL THINGS CREATED.
THERE IS NO SECOND HUB,NEXT TO THE FIRST.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ April 14 2014,21:20) Mike B. I understand isaiah 9 allright; it is you that make a created being your everlasting Father.
Lets go from start.
John 1:1 *In the beginning* was the Word……………
No, no, no, Wakeup.I will be happy to go through John 1 with you, verse by verse. But not UNTIL I'm sure you understand the things I've shown you about Isaiah 9:6.
Judging from your claim, “it is you that make a created being your everlasting Father”, you don't yet get it.
You already agreed that the son who was born to us was NOT our heavenly Father Jehovah, right? So unless that son somehow BECAME our heavenly Father Jehovah at a later time, there is no reason for one of his titles to say he IS our heavenly Father Jehovah, right?
And that means one of two things:
1. The son who was born to us BECAME our heavenly Father Jehovah at a later time.
2. The title “everlasting father” DOESN'T refer to our heavenly Father Jehovah….. but instead to the son being an “everlasting BENEFACTOR”.
Which one do you think is the right one?
I've asked you five questions about 9:6 in my last post. If you could only answer them, I'd get an idea of whether or not you're learning the things I'm spending my time to teach you. It would also show me which of those things you still need some help with. So please answer those questions, Wakeup. It's the only way we can move forward and better our understanding.
Mike b.
This is where you are also wrong.
Jesus will not be our everlasting father.
Just as your spokesman won't be.
For God himself will take over at the end
of the thousand year.
God and His Word will be our everlasting Father.
They are one.It will not work Mike.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
1. Was our heavenly Father Jehovah the son who was born to us? YES or NO?
2. Will the son who was born to us someday BECOME our heavenly Father Jehovah? YES or NO?
Quote (Wakeup @ April 15 2014,20:45) Jesus will not be our everlasting father. God and His Word will be our everlasting Father.
Huh?Isn't Jesus the Word? Are you saying that the person “Jesus” will cease to exist, and the Word will “merge back together” with the Father?
Or are you saying Jesus himself will become our heavenly Father?
I don't understand what you're saying, but I NEED you to answer the two questions from my last post. I INSIST that you answer them, Wakeup.
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