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Quote MikeB. This is what you believe Mike:
1.God's word are just words.
2.God created a creature to be His personal spokesman
before the world was.(all created are creatures).
3.Everything was created by this spokesman on God's
behalf.
4.God send him down to earth to become flesh.
5.He became the saviour of the world.
6.All knees shall bow down before Him,to honour Him.
7.No one can come to God but through Him.
8.We only worship God but not Him;we just honour Him.
9.His claim in revelation: I am Alpha and Omega;the first
and the last; he who lives and was dead. Does not belong
in the book of revelation; it was added on by trinies.
10.He is not the everlasting father nor the mighty God as
per isaiah 9.
11.He is now next to His Father.
12.He will come again with his new name: The Word of God.
13.He will reign in His own kingdom on earth.Is that correct Mike?
wakeup.
Please, no other posters on this thread except for the three mentioned in the title of the thread.
Quote 1.God's word are just words. Correct. A word is just a word. It is a thought that is spoken. God has spoken many words to us throughout history, sometimes with His own mouth, other times through angels, and other times through human prophets.
But in the end, they are simply literal words.
Quote Correct. A word is just a word. It is a thought that is spoken. God has spoken many words to us throughout history, sometimes with His own mouth, other times through angels, and other times through human prophets. But in the end, they are simply literal words.
Hi MikeIs God's word just any word? These literal words as you call them, created absolutely everything that exists, and not only that;
…….”the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)Can you please look at these scriptures and tell me if you can see something here?
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.journey,
Welcome aboard.
1. On rare occasions (John 1:1, John 1:14, 1 John 1:1, and Revelation 19:13), the phrase “The Word” refers to the title of God's main spokesman Jesus Christ. But don't confuse this title of God's spokesman with the literal “words” that God has spoken throughout history.
In most cases, the phrase “the word of God” refers simply to words or commands that God has given us through angels, prophets, etc. And these words are simply words.
2. God created everything. You seem to think that some possession OF God created all things, leaving NOTHING that God Himself created. That idea is flawed, and goes against many scriptures.
The scriptural teaching is that God, alone and by Himself, created all things. And God chose to do that THROUGH various other means, including Jesus Christ, His main spokesman and firstborn.
This does NOT make “the Word” the Creator, or even a co-creator with God. God remains the ONLY Creator, despite the fact that He chose to create things THROUGH other entities.
MikeB.
John 1:3 All things were made *by him*; and without *him* was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made *by him*, **and the world knew him not*.
The world knew Him not.
And you are one of them.The world was made by Him: before He was born??
Who is He?? Just words??
1. Is this spokesman called everlasting Father?
2.He is from everlasting??
3.Mighty God??
4. Did he proceed out of God??
5. What was He before creation??wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,11:42) MikeB. John 1:3 All things were made *by him*; and without *him* was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made *by him*, **and the world knew him not*.
The world knew Him not.
And you are one of them.The world was made by Him: before He was born??
Who is He?? Just words??
1. Is this spokesman called everlasting Father?
2.He is from everlasting??
3.Mighty God??
4. Did he proceed out of God??
5. What was He before creation??
wakeup.
Quote The world was made by Him: before He was born??
No. The world was made THROUGH him after he was born as God's firstborn Son, and the first of the creations of God.Quote Who is He?? Just words??
Absolutely not. He is a living being, the first of the works of God. The beginning of God's creation. The firstborn of every creature. He is not just words, but has as one of his titles, “The Word of God” because it is a title that means he is God's spokesman.1. Yes. Elijah, Elisha, and Job were also metaphorically called “father” in scripture by people who were not literally their sons. It means “benefactor/protector”. And yes, Jesus will forever be our protector.
2. No, and he is never said in scripture to have been “from everlasting”.
3. Yes, Jesus is indeed a mighty god.
4. Depends on how poetic you want to be about it. Poetically speaking, all things ultimately proceeded out of God.
5. He was non-existent until his God created him as the first of His works.
Wakeup, I don't want to get all spread out with a bunch of things. I want to discuss ONE thing until the end before starting a different thing.
Right now, we're trying to get to the bottom of whether or not “The Word of God” was a literal word, or words, that God spoke out of His mouth.
I say “NO”. What do you say?
MikeB.
Quote
No. The world was made THROUGH him after he was born as God's firstborn Son, and the first of the creations of God.MIKE; WHAT WAS HE BORN OUT OF?? IN HEAVEN.
ARE ANGELS ALSO BORN??Quote
Who is He?? Just words??Quote
Absolutely not. ***He is a living being***, the first of the works of God. The beginning of God's creation. The firstborn of every creature. He is not just words, but has as one of his titles, “The Word of God” because it is a title that means he is God's spokesman.I AGREE THAT HE IS A BEING NOT A CREATURE.BUT YOU ALSO SAID THAT HE WAS A CREATURE. MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
THIS BEING WAS BROUGHT FORTH FROM INSIDE GOD TO THE OUTSIDE OF GOD. HE IS PART OF GOD HIMSELF.
**THE WORD PART** OF GOD. HE WAS NOT CREATED.
HE WAS FROM EVERLASTING INSIDE GOD UNTILL **GOD SPOKE** IN THE BEGINNING OF CREATION.THE WORD WAS SPOKEN OUT.Quote
1. Yes. Elijah, Elisha, and Job were also metaphorically called “father” in scripture by people who were not literally their sons. It means “benefactor/protector”. And yes, Jesus will forever be our protector.ABRAHAM IS ALSO OUR FATHER.BUT IS HE ALSO GOD??
GOD IS OUR EVERLASTING FATHER AND SO IS WHAT WAS INSIDE HIM. OUR SPIRITUAL FATHER.Quote
2. No, and he is never said in scripture to have been “from everlasting”.THE FIRST THING TO DO IS TO RESPECT THE SCRIPTURES,
OR; YOU ARE PLAYING AROUND WITH THE WORD OF GOD.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us ***a child is born***, unto us ***a son is given***: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, ***The mighty God***, ***The everlasting Father***, The Prince of Peace.Quote
3. Yes, Jesus is indeed a mighty god.NO; NOT *A* MIGHTY GOD. DONT PLAY FOOTBALL
WITH THE WORD OF GOD. IT SAYS *THE* MIGHTY GOD.Quote
4. Depends on how poetic you want to be about it. Poetically speaking, all things ultimately proceeded out of God.THERE IS NOTHING POETIC ABOUT IT.
IT IS A TRUE STATEMENT. A DECLARATION.Quote
5. He was non-existent until his God created him as the first of His works.THE EVERLASTING FATHER,THE MIGHTY GOD,WAS NOT CREATED: AND ALWAYS IN EXISTENCE.WHO ARE YOU LISTENING TO??
Quote
Wakeup, I don't want to get all spread out with a bunch of things. I want to discuss ONE thing until the end before starting a different thing.THE BALL IS IN YOUR COURT.
Quote
Right now, we're trying to get to the bottom of whether or not “The Word of God” was a literal word, or words, that God spoke out of His mouth.I THOUGHT YOU SAID IT: AS ABOVE; HE IS A BEING.
BUT ALSO HE IS A CREATURE.YOU HAVE NOT MADE UP
YOUR MIND.
IF HE WAS CREATED;THEN HE CAN NOT BE FROM EVERLASTING.Quote
I say “NO”. What do you say?I SAY THE WORD OF GOD IS A LIVING BREATHING BEING WHICH GOD BROUGTH FORTH FROM INSIDE HIMSELF.
GOD'S WORD COMES FROM INSIDE GOD,AND NO WHERE ELSE.BUT HIS WORD IS ALIVE HE HAD LIFE IN HIMSELF.
HE ALSO HAS A FORM;THE IMAGE OF GOD,FOR GOD HAD GIVEN HIM A FORM AS HE PLEASE.GOD COULD HAVE GIVEN HIM ANOTHER FORM.GOD CAN DO ALL THESE THINGS BUT WE CAN NOT COMPREHEND IT; BECAUSE GOD IS A SPIRIT.
HE FORMED HIS OWN WORD INTO A BEING LIKE HIMSLEF.
THIS BEING IS IN OBEDIENCE TO THE OWNER;WHICH IS GOD.THEREFORE GOD; IS ALSO HIS GOD,AND OUR GOD.
WE BOTH ARE WORSHIPPING THE SAME GOD.
THE TRINIES BELIEVE THAT THE WORD IS GOD HIMSELF
BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE WORD IS THE WORD OF GOD.
IN OBEDIENCE TO GOD;ALWAYS.wakeup.
mikeboll64,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote This does NOT make “the Word” the Creator, or even a co-creator with God. God remains the ONLY Creator, despite the fact that He chose to create things THROUGH other entities. Mike
Before Jesus Christ was born, what was he known as?
And why does it say this;
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.Who is “him” that all things were made by?
and without “him” was not anything made?
“Him is ?and this one;
Hebrews1:2HathintheselastdaysspokenuntousbyhisSon,whomhehathappointedheirofallthings,bywhomalsohemadetheworlds[/color class="bbcode-color">By whom did God “also” made the worlds?
How would he do this?Look to the two scriptures you posted for your answer, journey.
One of them tells us that all things were created through “the Word”.
And the other one tells us that all things were created through “God's Son”.
Both of those titles belong to the same person, right? But how could all things have been created through “God's Son” if “God's Son” didn't even exist until he was flesh?
Get it?
He was both “the Word” AND “God's Son” BEFORE all things were created through him. Colossians 1:13, 16 also support the fact that he was “God's Son” BEFORE “all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him”.
And if you add 1 Corinthians 8:6 into the mix, then it becomes clear that he was not only “the Word” and “God's Son” before all things were created through him, but he was also already “Jesus Christ”. Because in that passage, the same “all things” that came FROM God, came THROUGH “Jesus Christ”.
Those things couldn't have come “through Jesus Christ” unless “Jesus Christ” existed BEFORE those “all things” were created through him.
These things are right there in the scriptures for all of us to see. Are you able to see them?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) MIKE; WHAT WAS HE BORN OUT OF?? IN HEAVEN.
ARE ANGELS ALSO BORN??
Jesus was made directly by God, as the first of God's many works.Angels are also spirit sons of God, so we could also poetically say that God “gave birth” to them as well. Don't get bogged down in the word “born”, since it's not like God actually has a uterus from which He literally gave birth to His “firstborn” Son, Jesus. Don't forget that scripture also says Jesus was the firstborn of every CREATURE, and the beginning of the CREATION by God.
The fact that one is “born” does NOT prohibit that one from also being a “creation”. Do you understand this?
Also, I could turn that question right back on you, and ask you who the first angel was…….. and what that angel was made out of, in heaven.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) I AGREE THAT HE IS A BEING NOT A CREATURE.BUT YOU ALSO SAID THAT HE WAS A CREATURE. MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
I am both a “human BEING”…….. AND a “creature”. The word “being” does not negate the word “creature”. All the “creatures” that God ever created are also living “beings”.Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) THIS BEING WAS BROUGHT FORTH FROM INSIDE GOD TO THE OUTSIDE OF GOD. HE IS PART OF GOD HIMSELF.
**THE WORD PART** OF GOD. HE WAS NOT CREATED.
And THAT is the ONLY thing we should be discussing right now. But instead you've got me making huge posts to answer your huge posts, and the discussion is going everywhere at once.After this post, I won't be addressing any more of your other claims or questions UNTIL we've discussed this point you made above. And we'll begin to discuss that point in my next post to you.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) ABRAHAM IS ALSO OUR FATHER.BUT IS HE ALSO GOD?
Abraham is not called a father in the “benefactor” way, Wakeup. He is called “the father of the Jews” because he was the first one through whom God created the nation of Israel.Elisha, Elijah, and Job, among others, were called “father” because they were benefactors. Do you understand this scriptural truth, Wakeup? Am I just speaking for no reason whatsoever? Are you even listening?
Job 29:16 King James Version
I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.Wakeup, in what way was Job a “father” to the poor? Does it mean Job was the heavenly Father Jehovah? Or was the word used metaphorically in the scriptures to refer to someone who was a BENEFACTOR to the poor?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) THE FIRST THING TO DO IS TO RESPECT THE SCRIPTURES,
OR; YOU ARE PLAYING AROUND WITH THE WORD OF GOD.
Isaiah 9:6
……. ***The mighty God***, ***The everlasting Father***
First of all, Jesus IS a mighty god, and so that title fits him well. After all, he is the second most powerful being in existence, right?Secondly, the word “everlasting” does not necessarily mean FROM everlasting, does it? For example, God will grant some of us “everlasting life”, right? Does the fact that we will live TO everlasting automatically mean we HAVE lived FROM everlasting? Of course not.
So, using the figurative use of “father = benefactor” – which is used in about 20 different scriptures besides that one in Job I just quoted for you – is it safe to say that Jesus will be our benefactor from now until forever? Yes. And can we then say that he will be our “everlasting benefactor”? Yes. And can we then, using a popular Hebrew idiom, say that he will be our “everlasting father”? Yes.
Do ANY of those things mean he is our heavenly Father Jehovah – or even equal to Jehovah? Absolutely not.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) IT SAYS *THE* MIGHTY GOD.
Actually, it doesn't.Isaiah 9:6
NET ©
…..and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NIV ©
And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NASB ©
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.NLT ©
These will be his royal titles: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.MSG ©
His names will be: Amazing Counselor, Strong God, Eternal Father, Prince of Wholeness.BBE ©
and he has been named Wise Guide, Strong God, Father for ever, Prince of Peace.NRSV ©
……and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.NKJV ©
And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.None of the translations above ADD the word “THE” like the KJV did. That word is not in the Hebrew text, but was added by the KJV people. Even the NKJV does not have it.
And we all know that Jesus is a wonderful counselor (NOT the only one), a mighty god (NOT the only one), an everlasting benefactor (NOT the only one), and a prince of peace (NOT the only one).
But would the word “THE” make a difference anyway, Wakeup? After all, Jesus is often called “THE Son of God”, when we know there exist MANY sons of God, right? He is called “THE Lord”, when there are MANY lords, right?
So I agree with you that we should not “play football with the word of God”. This is just another one of those times when the ADDITIONS of the KJV have gotten you into trouble. I mean, do you REALLY think that the CHILD born to us is the FATHER God Almighty?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) THERE IS NOTHING POETIC ABOUT IT.
IT IS A TRUE STATEMENT. A DECLARATION.
John 16:27 says Jesus came “from God”. John 8:42 is the same Greek word, and tells us the same thing: that Jesus came from God.Don't read too much into the KJV's poetic wording there. Compare the other translations.
But either way, all things ultimately came from God, which means we could say that all things “proceedeth forth” from God.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) THE EVERLASTING FATHER,THE MIGHTY GOD,WAS NOT CREATED:
Jesus was indeed created, Wakeup. Don't lose sight of the fact that Isaiah 9:6 starts off with a CHILD being BORN. Jehovah is not a CHILD of anyone, nor was He at any time BORN.Also, there is no child that was ever BORN who also existed from eternity. Nor has there ever been a child who was BORN, but who is NOT also a CREATION.
Okay, we can come back to this stuff as we move along in the discussion. I hope you were paying attention to my words this time, because there might be a quiz later.
Now it's time to get back to the main point………
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 02 2014,15:08) I SAY THE WORD OF GOD IS A LIVING BREATHING BEING WHICH GOD BROUGTH FORTH FROM INSIDE HIMSELF.
GOD'S WORD COMES FROM INSIDE GOD,AND NO WHERE ELSE.
I agree 100%, Wakeup.So, first up……….
1. Was this being a LITERAL word (or words) that God SPOKE out of Himself?
2. Was this Word already a “living breathing being” with it's own existence inside of God BEFORE God brought it/him to the outside?
MikeB.
To avoid any confusion I will do it one more time.
seperating the *before creation*, *just *prior* to creation*, and *at creation day*. And after.BEFORE CREATION:
1. Before creation there was only God.(a spirit).
And his Word inside his mind.
Not spoken out yet; still in His thinking process.
This is when John said: and *the Word *WAS* God*.
**WAS* past tense**. not *IS* God.JUST BEFORE CREATION DAY STARTED:
2. God started to bring forth out of his mind,His Word
And gave Him a form in His own image.
a living breathing Being.(GOD'S WORD).
(not created,just brought Him forth)
(from the inside of God to the outside).
And He is the Word of God. In God's own image.
This is when John said: *the Word *was with* God*.AT CREATION DAY:
1.The Word of God started all God's creation.From Gods mind
(will) To Him: and he spoke on behalf of his God.
His God: because he obeyed what ever God wanted him
to say.
What ever God has in his mind, his Word say,and do.
He is just called: THE WORD OF GOD.(my word has no name just as yours).
THEN HE WAS SEND DOWN TO EARTH, AND TRANSFORMED INTO FLESH AND HIS NAME IS CALLED; JESUS. NOW HE IS BACK AS HE WAS BEFORE,AS THE WORD OF GOD.
AND HE WILL COME BACK AGAIN, AS THE WORD OF GOD.We on earth can still worship God through Jesus; because that is the only name we are familiar with.There is no other name we know of.
God has glorified that name in heaven and on earth,
that all will bow down to that name. FOR HE WAS INSIDE GOD FROM EVER GOD WAS. HE AND GOD ARE ONE GOD.
THERE IS NONE ELSE.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Please answer question #1 and question #2 DIRECTLY.
They really only require simple “YES” or “NO” answers.
Didn't you agree in the other thread that this private discussion of ours would be handled with DIRECT answers to each other's questions?
So be a man of your word, and answer those 2 questions directly………… without a bunch of “explaining” right off the bat. We are going to take this SLOW instead of “everything all at once”.
Mike B.
Quote
1. Was this being a LITERAL word (or words) that God SPOKE out of Himself?No not one litteral word,but the whole package.
No person has just a one litteral word. do you?Quote
2. Was this Word already a “living breathing being” with it's own existence inside of God BEFORE God brought it/him to the outside?He is alive in Gods mind still.
wakeup.
mikeboll64,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Look to the two scriptures you posted for your answer, journey. One of them tells us that all things were created through “the Word”.
And the other one tells us that all things were created through “God's Son”.
Both of those titles belong to the same person, right?
Right. Spot on.Quote But how could all things have been created through “God's Son” if “God's Son” didn't even exist until he was flesh? Exactly Mike.
So it can only mean one thing. Before the man Jesus Christ existed, he was not Jesus, but “The Word”Quote Get it?
Yes I get it, but I am trying to get you to get it.Quote He was both “the Word” AND “God's Son” BEFORE all things were created through him.
Stop right there. He was the Word in the beginning, and only became God's Son when he was born. Before that there was no Son. Just God and his Word.Quote Colossians 1:13, 16 also support the fact that he was “God's Son” BEFORE “all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him”. Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.
His dear Son, who endured to the end without spot or blemish, has been crowned King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. God has given charge to his Dear Son over his kingdom that will reign on earth, and if we take part in the first resurrection, then we inherit that kingdom also.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
All things were created by the Word. God used his Word to create everything. He commanded, and the Word obeyed. This same Word happened to change form. God changed his Word from Spirit to flesh, and when it changed form, it became a new creature. When the word became a man.
So this scripture is speaking of Jesus when he was the Word, and not the flesh man, Jesus Christ.Quote And if you add 1 Corinthians 8:6 into the mix, then it becomes clear that he was not only “the Word” and “God's Son” before all things were created through him, but he was also already “Jesus Christ”. Because in that passage, the same “all things” that came FROM God, came THROUGH “Jesus Christ”. 1Corinth 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Again, It doesn't prove the Word “WAS” Jesus Christ,
but that Jesus Christ “WAS” the Word.Stage one – THE WORD (SPIRIT, GOD'S IMAGE)
Stage two – JESUS CHRIST (MAN, FLESH)Quote Those things couldn't have come “through Jesus Christ” unless “Jesus Christ” existed BEFORE those “all things” were created through him.
Yes, Jesus did exist, but he was the Word. The same Word God used to create everything. Nothing was made without his Word. Meaning, he spoke, through his Word, or by his Word (same thing) and whatever it was, came into existence.Quote These things are right there in the scriptures for all of us to see. Are you able to see them?
Yes, and I am trying to give you a little help Mike, and trying to be patient.The Word transformed into flesh,is still the word,but in
the form of man.
The flesh transformed back into spirit is still the same Word.
The Word transformed into a stone is still the Word.
No matter what the Word is transformed into,
He is still the Word.wakeup.
Thank you for the direct answers, Wakeup. That is how a discussion is supposed to work.
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 03 2014,17:01) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
1. Was this being a LITERAL word (or words) that God SPOKE out of Himself?No not one litteral word,but the whole package.
No person has just a one litteral word. do you?
Okay. So let's imagine that very first “package” of words was, “I'm ready to start creating things.”And that “package” came out of God's mouth and became an individual living entity who was no longer “God Almighty Himself”.
What happened when God then had to speak words TO this new living entity, to explain what He wanted this new living entity to do next? For example, let's say God's first words TO this new living entity were, “First, I want you to create the heavens.”
Why didn't that new “package” of words out of God's mouth ALSO become an individual living entity who was no longer God Himself? Of all the millions of words that God has spoken through the ages, why do you suppose only the first “package” of words from His mouth took form and became an individual living being? Why didn't all those other words God has spoken do the same thing?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 03 2014,17:01) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
2. Was this Word already a “living breathing being” with it's own existence inside of God BEFORE God brought it/him to the outside?He is alive in Gods mind still.
That is not an adequate answer to the question, Wakeup. I want to know if this “living breathing being” was ALREADY a “living breathing being” BEFORE he proceeded out from God.Or if he was, like you've said many times before, actually God Almighty Himself before God spoke him out of Himself?
Which one?
journey,
Let's try that Colossians 1 passage all together, so you can get my point:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
The only reason I mentioned verse 13 to you was so you would know WHO the passage was about. And verse 13 tells us that Paul was speaking about God's SON, right?
And I'm sure you'll agree that all the later pronouns that I've bolded in verses 14-16 refer back to that same subject: God's SON.
So verse 16 really says:
For by God's Son were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by God's Son, and for God's Son:
Now do you get what I'm saying? There is no way God could have created all visible and invisible things in heaven and on earth through His SON, unless His SON existed before those things were created through him.
Now YOU'RE imagining a teaching that says all visible and invisible things in heaven and on earth were created through the Word, who later came to BE God's Son.
You are imagining these other words into the passage – when those words are not actually there in the Greek teaching.
Here's what 1 Cor 8:6 actually teaches…..
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
….. and here's what you IMAGINE 1 Cor 8:6 teaches…….
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Word, who later came to BE the Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Here's what Hebrews 1:2 teaches………
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
…… and here's what you IMAGINE Hebrews 1:2 teaches…….
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe back when he was the Word, and long BEFORE he actually became his Son.
Now do you see what I'm getting at? You are reading, “God created all things through JESUS CHRIST, HIS SON”…….. but you are understanding, “God created all things through the Word who later BECAME Jesus Christ, His Son”.
And you will never come to the TRUTH of the matter by imagining extra words into the scriptures.
If the scripture SAYS God created all things through “His Son”, then believe it as it is written. Don't go imagining “the one who later BECAME His Son” into the text.
If you understand only the words that were written, without imagining your own extra words into them, does it then become clear to you that Jesus must have been both “Jesus” AND “God's Son” BEFORE God created all things through him?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 05 2014,05:23) Thank you for the direct answers, Wakeup. That is how a discussion is supposed to work. Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 03 2014,17:01) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
1. Was this being a LITERAL word (or words) that God SPOKE out of Himself?No not one litteral word,but the whole package.
No person has just a one litteral word. do you?
Okay. So let's imagine that very first “package” of words was, “I'm ready to start creating things.”And that “package” came out of God's mouth and became an individual living entity who was no longer “God Almighty Himself”.
What happened when God then had to speak words TO this new living entity, to explain what He wanted this new living entity to do next? For example, let's say God's first words TO this new living entity were, “First, I want you to create the heavens.”
Why didn't that new “package” of words out of God's mouth ALSO become an individual living entity who was no longer God Himself? Of all the millions of words that God has spoken through the ages, why do you suppose only the first “package” of words from His mouth took form and became an individual living being? Why didn't all those other words God has spoken do the same thing?
Quote (Wakeup @ Feb. 03 2014,17:01) Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
2. Was this Word already a “living breathing being” with it's own existence inside of God BEFORE God brought it/him to the outside?He is alive in Gods mind still.
That is not an adequate answer to the question, Wakeup. I want to know if this “living breathing being” was ALREADY a “living breathing being” BEFORE he proceeded out from God.Or if he was, like you've said many times before, actually God Almighty Himself before God spoke him out of Himself?
Which one?
MikeB.I will do it just one more time and thats that.
1.That living being is God's Word not God,He is in obedience
to God.2.God does not speak to him verbally.Its like you think
in your mind what to say,and your mouth speaks out what
is in your mind.(speak out your mind).3. What ever God thinks,his Word speaks.
just as his Word on earth. What ever God speaks in His
mind his Word Jesus speaks.4. There was not a time that God did not think.
but there was a time that God speaks out his word to
create.To do His will.And His Word did all the work.
Can you imagine his Word, that created The universe?
Is he powerful or not? That is Gods mind speaking.5.This being was Gods own thoughts,in himself; untill
God's thoughts was spoken out.
God is a HE. (a living He).His name is not just one.
God's Word is a HE. (a living HE). What's His name??
The Holy spirit is a HE. (a living HE).What's His name??Your word is what is in your mind spoken out.
You can keep it in your mind, untill you decide to speak your mind;or stay silent. It becomes your word when you speak out. Before you spoke out there was no word;just you.I have been doing this for a long time now.
If God wants you to undertsand ,you will. If not,than you can call it nonsensical.I have watered,only God can make it grow.wakeup.
BTW. I was just warned not to be too harsh on Terra;or else.
Poor Terra, I was just trying to shake him in his warm cradle. I dont hate you Terra. I hate no one. All done for the good.
The softly softly approach will not work. Will only be perceived as a salesman tryng to sell a product.
From now on I will just do the watering and wont dig around
for some hope that it will grow.wakeup.
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