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Quote (Colter @ Aug. 18 2013,06:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 18 2013,14:43) When someone talks of your family do they use the word HE? No they don't. But to justify the Trinity and to make it fit the God of the Bible who is referred to has HE/HIM, Trinitarians invent this new ridiculous and unique concept where 3 persons are HE and your Urantia Religion concurs proving that it is also of the same foolish Babylonian root.
Then maybe you could have corrected Jesus t8 when he misspoke and mislead so many people, even his enemy's who used the occasion of his unfortunate command of language to put him to death.
Jesus had a “poor command of language”? And that's why they put him to death?
How does “the Father manifested in flesh” have a poor command of the language of his own creations?
Your statement that t8 “could have corrected Jesus” falls into the “ass hat” category……….. and doesn't address his point at all.
Jesus many times called God a “he”. And he many times referred to groups of persons as “they” or “them”.
I find it hard to believe that you would attribute YOUR OWN misconception of a group of persons who are a “he” to a “poor command of language” on Jesus' part.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2013,02:12) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2013,16:51) We all know that any reference to “gods” were false which is why Jesus says: John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
The gods in Gen 3:5 (also the “one of us” in 3:22) are the spirit sons of Jehovah – the ones we commonly call “angels”. They are referred to as gods many times in scripture.The phrase “only true god” is not meant to be literal, for Jesus himself was called a god at least 4 times in scripture. And Satan is called a god by both Paul and Jehovah Himself.
Instead, it is more like me saying, “Jehovah is the only true savior”. He is, after all, on an emphatic level, the ONLY true savior. And just like Jehovah emphatically said there is no elohim besides Him in the scripture you quoted, He also said there is no savior besides Him in Isaiah 43:11.
Yet we know from scripture that He SENT many other saviors, including Jesus Christ. So after weighing the evidence, was Jehovah speaking LITERALLY in Is 43:11? Or EMPHATICALLY?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 17 2013,16:51) There are no “gods”
Then scripture is wrong that Jehovah is the MOST HIGH god. And scripture is wrong that Jehovah is the god OF gods.
Say “It is Allah that delivereth you from these and all (other) distresses: and yet ye worship false gods!”( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #64)
Jesus was being literal there are no other gods that are actually God. The difference is this, you said Jesuswas referred to as a god in at least 4 instances right? but the fact is Jesus says:
John 8:28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.THE TRUE GOD does not receive power and authority from anyone and is completely Sovereign, he fact THE TRUE God is SUPREME andhence the term MOST HIGH and HE is THE ONLY SAVIOUR literally those who are sent by him are doing it in the capacity of ambassador/vicegerant/deputy they are only doing what they were taught to do/told to do. Jesus didn't even want to stay
Matthew 17:17
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.God made it clear when he told Moses:
Exodus 7:1
And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.Now we know that God gave Moses the Authority to act on his behalf but that in no way made Moses an actual God.
God can give power and take it away but who can give power or take it away from GOD ALMIGHTY?
This is what Elijah knew when he went against the other prophets
1 Kings 18:24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
24 and call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the Lord: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
So there are actually 0 other gods because there is only 1 that has ABSOLUTE POWER as Jesus taught us
Matthew 6:13
……….. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.IT IS ALL HIS ALONE whether HE shares it or not is COMPLETELY UP TO HIM. THERE IS NONE LIKE THAT.
Jesus is held in High regard in the sight of God but even then Jesus points out with great reverence:
Mark 10:40
but to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.GOD IS GREAT! GIVE HIM PRAISE!
Boditharta.
Please ponder on these two verses:
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that **I came out from God**. (CAME OUT).
John 16:28 **I came forth from the Father**, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
THE WORD CAME OUT FROM GOD.
GOD IS ONE. THE *WORD* DEPEND ON GOD.
GOD'S RIGHT HAND DID ALL GOD'S WORKS.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 19 2013,07:41) Boditharta. Please ponder on these two verses:
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that **I came out from God**. (CAME OUT).
John 16:28 **I came forth from the Father**, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
THE WORD CAME OUT FROM GOD.
GOD IS ONE. THE *WORD* DEPEND ON GOD.
GOD'S RIGHT HAND DID ALL GOD'S WORKS.wakeup.
What is there to ponder? Of course Jesus came out from God.Let me ask you a question when you hammer a nail into a piece of wood is it the hammer or you that is driving that action?
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 18 2013,23:36) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 18 2013,22:40)
During the evolution of Judaism, the battle between the concept of the Oneness of the Elohim plurality, and the pantheism of the surrounding religions, lead the Hebrew mind to conceptualize the Lord God of Israel to be one solitary deity.Basically what you keep saying is that God can't be any more than >you< can understand him to be. That's how God gets created in mans own image. The deciples of Jesus loved and trusted him as they were slowly lead to the revelation of the true identity of the Son of Man. It was only latter in the development of the Christian church that small groups of believers began to doubt the divinity of Christ.
Colter
Hi Colter,1) All Christians believe in the divinity of Christ because he is the “Son of God.”
2) Technically “The Trinity” doesn't exist; the trinity was the mechanism,
(as in the means) of extracting 'Lucifer' from the Godhead. (Link)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2013,07:54) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 19 2013,07:41) Boditharta. Please ponder on these two verses:
John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that **I came out from God**. (CAME OUT).
John 16:28 **I came forth from the Father**, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
THE WORD CAME OUT FROM GOD.
GOD IS ONE. THE *WORD* DEPEND ON GOD.
GOD'S RIGHT HAND DID ALL GOD'S WORKS.wakeup.
What is there to ponder? Of course Jesus came out from God.Let me ask you a question when you hammer a nail into a piece of wood is it the hammer or you that is driving that action?
Boditharta.Many understand that scripture a different way.
They see it as Jesus coming out from heaven,where God is.
In fact *He came out from inside God*.If you have understood it this way, then it is time to worship him. For he is not *just a prophet* like mohamad.
You have Jesus;you have God.You believe in the Word,you believe in God.
You reject the Word;you reject God.This is what you, and muslems believe; that jesus is just a prophet from God;and mohamad is the last prophet from God.
You can not believe one thing, and say the
something else.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega,the first and the last.
There is no comparison to mohamad.Sorry if I have offended you in anyway.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 19 2013,08:20) Boditharta. This is what you, and muslems believe; that jesus is just a prophet from God;and mohamad is the last prophet from God.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,They say Jesus is “Christ” but they don't know what that means.
It means Jesus Christ is God's anointed “LEADER” – not Muhammad!
Muhammad is the false prophet mentioned in the book of Revelations. (see also Gal.1:8 & 2Cor.11:14)Ed J
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,02:17) Then maybe you could have corrected Jesus t8 when he misspoke and mislead so many people, even his enemy's who used the occasion of his unfortunate command of language to put him to death. By default you aligne yourself with those who also thought Jesus was a fool and perhaps mad. They concluded his miracle working was from Satan.
Colter
No I am not correcting Jesus, he is correcting you if you bothered to actually listen to him.Jesus said:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.So it was Jesus who corrected me because I use to believe that Babylonian doctrine. I came out of Babylon, what about you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2013,06:01) Jesus had a “poor command of language”? And that's why they put him to death? How does “the Father manifested in flesh” have a poor command of the language of his own creations?
Your statement that t8 “could have corrected Jesus” falls into the “ass hat” category……….. and doesn't address his point at all.
Jesus many times called God a “he”. And he many times referred to groups of persons as “they” or “them”.
I find it hard to believe that you would attribute YOUR OWN misconception of a group of persons who are a “he” to a “poor command of language” on Jesus' part.
Classic.
I noticed Colter how you could not refute my central point in the following. Below that I have added in a triangle to help you construct a post that attempts to refute my post.
When a person is brainwashed it can make a person believe in the absurd.
“The Trinity didn't judge anyone for believing in the Trinity, but he did take away his protection of Israel…”
Look at how absurd that statement is.
The Trinity is 3 persons, and they are called HE.
Look at your family. How many persons are in your family? When someone talks of your family do they use the word HE?
No they don't. But to justify the Trinity and to make it fit the God of the Bible who is referred to has HE/HIM, Trinitarians invent this new ridiculous and unique concept where 3 persons are HE and your Urantia Religion concurs proving that it is also of the same foolish Babylonian root.
You have to be brainwashed to not see how absurd that is.
“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2013,03:01) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 18 2013,06:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 18 2013,14:43) When someone talks of your family do they use the word HE? No they don't. But to justify the Trinity and to make it fit the God of the Bible who is referred to has HE/HIM, Trinitarians invent this new ridiculous and unique concept where 3 persons are HE and your Urantia Religion concurs proving that it is also of the same foolish Babylonian root.
Then maybe you could have corrected Jesus t8 when he misspoke and mislead so many people, even his enemy's who used the occasion of his unfortunate command of language to put him to death.
Jesus had a “poor command of language”? And that's why they put him to death?How does “the Father manifested in flesh” have a poor command of the language of his own creations?
Your statement that t8 “could have corrected Jesus” falls into the “ass hat” category……….. and doesn't address his point at all.
Jesus many times called God a “he”. And he many times referred to groups of persons as “they” or “them”.
I find it hard to believe that you would attribute YOUR OWN misconception of a group of persons who are a “he” to a “poor command of language” on Jesus' part.
My point is lost on you and t8, the religious authorities, Pharisees, educated lawyerly quibblers etc. heard what Jesus said in whatever phraseing and language that he used. They concluded what Trinirarians conclude, that Jesus was calling himself divine, on par with God. Jesus did not correct them if they in fact misunderstood. The lame reasoning of the anti-pre existence, anti-divinity, anti-Jesus is a God crowd, imply that EVERYONE has misunderstood Jesus, his enemies who heard him, the Sanhedrin spies who followed him, the apostles and countless Christians, theologians and martyrs. Only a small group of overanylizing intellectuals can so clearly see what no one else can….except your Muslim friends. Btw, I didn't feel the need to refute t8's hair splitting masculine angle. I could have explained that the Eternal Son is indispensable to the Fatherhood of God, but resistance is futile. The Trinity is ONE in function, God is often referred to as He while it's unlikly that he has a penis.
Colter
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,09:14) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,02:17) Then maybe you could have corrected Jesus t8 when he misspoke and mislead so many people, even his enemy's who used the occasion of his unfortunate command of language to put him to death. By default you aligne yourself with those who also thought Jesus was a fool and perhaps mad. They concluded his miracle working was from Satan.
Colter
No I am not correcting Jesus, he is correcting you if you bothered to actually listen to him.Jesus said:
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.So it was Jesus who corrected me because I use to believe that Babylonian doctrine. I came out of Babylon, what about you?
…….”And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5)you miss one t8
Colter
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,09:28) Colter, how is your family. How is he?
My family is fine thank you, it is more than the sum of its constituent parts, that's why it's called family and not individuals. Family is a supersumnative corporate entity like the Trinity.(113.3) 10:5.2 The functions of the Paradise Trinity are not simply the sum of the Father’s apparent endowment of divinity plus those specialized attributes that are unique in the personal existence of the Son and the Spirit. The Trinity association of the three Paradise Deities results in the evolution, eventuation, and deitization of new meanings, values, powers, and capacities for universal revelation, action, and administration. Living associations, human families, social groups, or the Paradise Trinity are not augmented by mere arithmetical summation. The group potential is always far in excess of the simple sum of the attributes of the component individuals.
Thanks for asking.
Colter
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2013,08:15) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 18 2013,23:36) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 18 2013,22:40)
During the evolution of Judaism, the battle between the concept of the Oneness of the Elohim plurality, and the pantheism of the surrounding religions, lead the Hebrew mind to conceptualize the Lord God of Israel to be one solitary deity.Basically what you keep saying is that God can't be any more than >you< can understand him to be. That's how God gets created in mans own image. The deciples of Jesus loved and trusted him as they were slowly lead to the revelation of the true identity of the Son of Man. It was only latter in the development of the Christian church that small groups of believers began to doubt the divinity of Christ.
Colter
Hi Colter,1) All Christians believe in the divinity of Christ because he is the “Son of God.”
2) Technically “The Trinity” doesn't exist; the trinity was the mechanism,
(as in the means) of extracting 'Lucifer' from the Godhead. (Link)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed, this explains it better than I can:2. Trinity Unity and Deity Plurality
(1145.2) 104:2.1 Monotheism arose as a philosophic protest against the inconsistency of polytheism. It developed first through pantheon organizations with the departmentalization of supernatural activities, then through the henotheistic exaltation of one god above the many, and finally through the exclusion of all but the One God of final value.
(1145.3) 104:2.2 Trinitarianism grows out of the experiential protest against the impossibility of conceiving the oneness of a deanthropomorphized solitary Deity of unrelated universe significance. Given a sufficient time, philosophy tends to abstract the personal qualities from the Deity concept of pure monotheism, thus reducing this idea of an unrelated God to the status of a pantheistic Absolute. It has always been difficult to understand the personal nature of a God who has no personal relationships in equality with other and co-ordinate personal beings. Personality in Deity demands that such Deity exist in relation to other and equal personal Deity.
(1145.4) 104:2.3 Through the recognition of the Trinity concept the mind of man can hope to grasp something of the interrelationship of love and law in the time-space creations. Through spiritual faith man gains insight into the love of God but soon discovers that this spiritual faith has no influence on the ordained laws of the material universe. Irrespective of the firmness of man’s belief in God as his Paradise Father, expanding cosmic horizons demand that he also give recognition to the reality of Paradise Deity as universal law, that he recognize the Trinity sovereignty extending outward from Paradise and overshadowing even the evolving local universes of the Creator Sons and Creative Daughters of the three eternal persons whose deity union is the fact and reality and eternal indivisibility of the Paradise Trinity.
(1145.5) 104:2.4 And this selfsame Paradise Trinity is a real entity — not a personality but nonetheless a true and absolute reality; not a personality but nonetheless compatible with coexistent personalities — the personalities of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. The Trinity is a supersummative Deity reality eventuating out of the conjoining of the three Paradise Deities. The qualities, characteristics, and functions of the Trinity are not the simple sum of the attributes of the three Paradise Deities; Trinity functions are something unique, original, and not wholly predictable from an analysis of the attributes of Father, Son, and Spirit.
(1146.1) 104:2.5 For example: The Master, when on earth, admonished his followers that justice is never a personal act; it is always a group function. Neither do the Gods, as persons, administer justice. But they perform this very function as a collective whole, as the Paradise Trinity.
(1146.2) 104:2.6 The conceptual grasp of the Trinity association of Father, Son, and Spirit prepares the human mind for the further presentation of certain other threefold relationships. Theological reason may be fully satisfied by the concept of the Paradise Trinity, but philosophical and cosmological reason demand the recognition of the other triune associations of the First Source and Center, those triunities in which the Infinite functions in various non-Father capacities of universal manifestation — the relationships of the God of force, energy, power, causation, reaction, potentiality, actuality, gravity, tension, pattern, principle, and unity.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2013,09:14) ED J, this topic is about the Trinity, in particular the Urantia version.
Yes, thank you for reminding us.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,15:31) My point is lost on you and t8, the religious authorities, Pharisees, educated lawyerly quibblers etc. heard what Jesus said in whatever phraseing and language that he used. They concluded what Trinirarians conclude, that Jesus was calling himself divine, on par with God. Jesus did not correct them if they in fact misunderstood. Quote Jesus was calling himself divine, on par with God. First off, to be on par with God means that you are not God.
If women are equal to men, then that means that women are not men. If Jesus has equality with God, then you draw from that, that he is not God.And to possess divine nature does not make you THE Divine, just as angels who are spirits are not God Almighty who is a Spirit. Also, we are explicitly taught that we too can participate in divine nature in scripture.
Quote Jesus did not correct them if they in fact misunderstood. You say that Jesus did not correct them. Ahem! Read his response for yourself.
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them `gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken–
36 what about the one whom the Father set ; Apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God’s Son’?Where exactly did God say that he was God here? Can't see it.
Trintarians often point out the words “I and the Father are one”, then later we can see that the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God. Therefore the claim is made that Jesus was claiming to be God which upset the Jews. But on closer inspection this text reveals the complete opposite. The irony here is that Jesus said earlier in verse 29, My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all and after the accusation that Jesus was claiming to be God by the Jews, Jesus then reminds them of the usage of the word “gods/theos” in the Old Testament.
Jesus was actually referring to Psalms 82:6 which reads:
“I said, `You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’After Jesus reminds the Jews of this, he then asks them:
…”Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s son’?” (verse 36 ).We know that ‘theos’ is Greek for God, but the word can also be used to describe the following:
- refers to the things of God
- his counsels, interests, things due to him
- whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
- God’s representative or viceregent of magistrates and judges
When you remove all bias and indoctrination, you can see the truth because it is in plain sight.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 19 2013,15:36) “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5)
Oh yeah that one says that Jesus is God and part of the Trinity….NOT.What a weak support verse for your view.
Jesus had glory with God before the world began.
If he is the firstborn of all creation, then that doesn't make him God.
Have another go Colter.
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