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Quote (Colter @ Aug. 14 2013,18:48) You don't understand the Trinity of the UB, if you took the time to you would see that They are all one in divinity. So you are left with a temporary man God, that's why the Jews think you are an idiot.
The Catholic trinity is the same. “They are three, but one in divinity” – whatever the freak that means.
BTW, what I'm left with is one God, and one mediator between God and man. That mediator is the exalted spirit son of God named Jesus, who now sits at the right hand of his God and my God, ruling over heaven and earth. (Or getting ready to.)
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 15 2013,07:49) The doctrine of the trinity,is created by man
that cant seem to understand the mystery.Only the Holy spirit can reveal that,to whom God has chosen to reveal.
*NO ONE* knows the Son,and *NO ONE* knows the father,but *HE* whom the Son will reveal.Luke 10:22.THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY,IS *PROOF* THAT THE MYSTERY HAS NOT BEEN REVEALED TO THEM.
wakeup.
***** RatingQuote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,10:10) One has to wonder, Had you guys been Jews, if all of you would have rejected Jesus based on the same thick headed arguments? Wakeup would be out in the crowd screaming like a lunatic “crucify him”!!!!! t8 would play the part of Caiaphas, Mike would be Pilate, reasonable, unsure, not wanting the blood on his hands, try to avoid it but in the end……a cave in. Budhartha would be preocupied praying 5 times a day and beating his wife. Colter
That was really uncalled for, I have never beat my wife and I don't appreciateyou making false statements about me.Does your religious beliefs allow you to offend others for no reason at all, we were not having any argument I am aware of that has turned personal and hateful and you actually called wakeup hateful?
Please try to not use personal attacks as a method of argument it makes you appear to be small and petty and much less evolved then you suggest the Urantia Book enlightened you to be.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Okay, so you say Jesus is lord and God, correct?So, does Jesus have a God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,12:11) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 14 2013,18:48) You don't understand the Trinity of the UB, if you took the time to you would see that They are all one in divinity. So you are left with a temporary man God, that's why the Jews think you are an idiot.
The Catholic trinity is the same. “They are three, but one in divinity” – whatever the freak that means.BTW, what I'm left with is one God, and one mediator between God and man. That mediator is the exalted spirit son of God named Jesus, who now sits at the right hand of his God and my God, ruling over heaven and earth. (Or getting ready to.)
Fair enough, I just completely disagree with your depiction of the identity of Jesus as a man. Both Johns disagree with you as well, Jesus also disagrees with you, but other then that.Colter
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:24) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Okay, so you say Jesus is lord and God, correct?So, does Jesus have a God?
Jeus is a divine creator who has a Father. He and the Father are one in divinity, to see him is to see the Father. NO ONE gets to the Father except through the Son. While voluntarily incarnate on the earth as a human Jesus was subject to the will of his Father. In doing so the Son has now experienced being Human, he is now and forever more both Human and divine.Jeus the Son has always been the way, he didn't become a new way, a mediator. Jesus never called himself a mediator, he referred to himself by divine rite, with power and authority.
Colter
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:22) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,10:10) One has to wonder, Had you guys been Jews, if all of you would have rejected Jesus based on the same thick headed arguments? Wakeup would be out in the crowd screaming like a lunatic “crucify him”!!!!! t8 would play the part of Caiaphas, Mike would be Pilate, reasonable, unsure, not wanting the blood on his hands, try to avoid it but in the end……a cave in. Budhartha would be preocupied praying 5 times a day and beating his wife. Colter
That was really uncalled for, I have never beat my wife and I don't appreciateyou making false statements about me.Does your religious beliefs allow you to offend others for no reason at all, we were not having any argument I am aware of that has turned personal and hateful and you actually called wakeup hateful?
Please try to not use personal attacks as a method of argument it makes you appear to be small and petty and much less evolved then you suggest the Urantia Book enlightened you to be.
It's a joke, don't take it so seriously.Colter
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:24) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Okay, so you say Jesus is lord and God, correct?So, does Jesus have a God?
Jeus is a divine creator who has a Father. He and the Father are one in divinity, to see him is to see the Father. NO ONE gets to the Father except through the Son. While voluntarily incarnate on the earth as a human Jesus was subject to the will of his Father. In doing so the Son has now experienced being Human, he is now and forever more both Human and divine.Jeus the Son has always been the way, he didn't become a new way, a mediator. Jesus never called himself a mediator, he referred to himself by divine rite, with power and authority.
Colter
So, does Jesus have a God? Yes or NOsaying he has a Father is not really answering, is “His Father” his God does his Father have authority over him?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:53) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:24) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Okay, so you say Jesus is lord and God, correct?So, does Jesus have a God?
Jeus is a divine creator who has a Father. He and the Father are one in divinity, to see him is to see the Father. NO ONE gets to the Father except through the Son. While voluntarily incarnate on the earth as a human Jesus was subject to the will of his Father. In doing so the Son has now experienced being Human, he is now and forever more both Human and divine.Jeus the Son has always been the way, he didn't become a new way, a mediator. Jesus never called himself a mediator, he referred to himself by divine rite, with power and authority.
Colter
So, does Jesus have a God? Yes or NOsaying he has a Father is not really answering, is “His Father” his God does his Father have authority over him?
Yes, You could say the Father has authority over him? Jesus is just like his Father? Jesus is a divine being, he is unified with his Father as a creator. Jesus does as his Father does. But because Jesus is himself a God it's not appropriate to say he has a God, for he and God are indistinguishable.Colter
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 14 2013,19:26) Fair enough, I just completely disagree with your depiction of the identity of Jesus as a man.
Jesus is no longer a human being, Colter. He is, in Biblical terminology, a god. (Many spirit sons of God are called gods in scripture.)It's just that he is not the MOST HIGH god. Instead, he is the SON of that One.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 14 2013,20:15) But because Jesus is himself a God it's not appropriate to say he has a God, for he and God are indistinguishable.
Indistinguishable, yet one is “Father” and the other is “Son”.Colter, how do you suppose God expected us human beings to understand the terms “father” and “son”?
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:15) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:53) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:24) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Okay, so you say Jesus is lord and God, correct?So, does Jesus have a God?
Jeus is a divine creator who has a Father. He and the Father are one in divinity, to see him is to see the Father. NO ONE gets to the Father except through the Son. While voluntarily incarnate on the earth as a human Jesus was subject to the will of his Father. In doing so the Son has now experienced being Human, he is now and forever more both Human and divine.Jeus the Son has always been the way, he didn't become a new way, a mediator. Jesus never called himself a mediator, he referred to himself by divine rite, with power and authority.
Colter
So, does Jesus have a God? Yes or NOsaying he has a Father is not really answering, is “His Father” his God does his Father have authority over him?
Yes, You could say the Father has authority over him? Jesus is just like his Father? Jesus is a divine being, he is unified with his Father as a creator. Jesus does as his Father does. But because Jesus is himself a God it's not appropriate to say he has a God, for he and God are indistinguishable.Colter
So you agree that in Rank/Degree Jesus is not equal to “Father”?Also, If a portion of a unit is not equal to the whole of itself how can that unit be indivisible?
You see, If the Father gives ALL authority to the son it would not include the authority of the Father who gave it to him because if it did he woul not need the Father to give the Authority to him, correct?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2013,13:31) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 14 2013,19:26) Fair enough, I just completely disagree with your depiction of the identity of Jesus as a man.
Jesus is no longer a human being, Colter. He is, in Biblical terminology, a god. (Many spirit sons of God are called gods in scripture.)It's just that he is not the MOST HIGH god. Instead, he is the SON of that One.
The creator Sons are of Trinity origin, they are the Fathers of their respective universes in the UB. Jesus was with the Father before this world was. He incarnate as a miraculous individual being both human and divine. he returned to the “right hand” of the Paradice Father, meaning his original position in heaven as ruler over his creation.Colte
Bodhitharta,
This s the answer to your question from the UB:
1. Self-Distribution of the First Source and Center
(108.4) 10:1.1 It would seem that the Father, back in eternity, inaugurated a policy of profound self-distribution. There is inherent in the selfless, loving, and lovable nature of the Universal Father something which causes him to reserve to himself the exercise of only those powers and that authority which he apparently finds it impossible to delegate or to bestow.
(108.5) 10:1.2 The Universal Father all along has divested himself of every part of himself that was bestowable on any other Creator or creature. He has delegated to his divine Sons and their associated intelligences every power and all authority that could be delegated. He has actually transferred to his Sovereign Sons, in their respective universes, every prerogative of administrative authority that was transferable. In the affairs of a local universe, he has made each Sovereign Creator Son just as perfect, competent, and authoritative as is the Eternal Son in the original and central universe. He has given away, actually bestowed, with the dignity and sanctity of personality possession, all of himself and all of his attributes, everything he possibly could divest himself of, in every way, in every age, in every place, and to every person, and in every universe except that of his central indwelling.
(109.1) 10:1.3 Divine personality is not self-centered; self-distribution and sharing of personality characterize divine freewill selfhood. Creatures crave association with other personal creatures; Creators are moved to share divinity with their universe children; the personality of the Infinite is disclosed as the Universal Father, who shares reality of being and equality of self with two co-ordinate personalities, the Eternal Son and the Conjoint Actor.
(109.2) 10:1.4 For knowledge concerning the Father’s personality and divine attributes we will always be dependent on the revelations of the Eternal Son, for when the conjoint act of creation was effected, when the Third Person of Deity sprang into personality existence and executed the combined concepts of his divine parents, the Father ceased to exist as the unqualified personality. With the coming into being of the Conjoint Actor and the materialization of the central core of creation, certain eternal changes took place. God gave himself as an absolute personality to his Eternal Son. Thus does the Father bestow the “personality of infinity” upon his only-begotten Son, while they both bestow the “conjoint personality” of their eternal union upon the Infinite Spirit.
(109.3) 10:1.5 For these and other reasons beyond the concept of the finite mind, it is exceedingly difficult for the human creature to comprehend God’s infinite father-personality except as it is universally revealed in the Eternal Son and, with the Son, is universally active in the Infinite Spirit.
(109.4) 10:1.6 Since the Paradise Sons of God visit the evolutionary worlds and sometimes even there dwell in the likeness of mortal flesh, and since these bestowals make it possible for mortal man actually to know something of the nature and character of divine personality, therefore must the creatures of the planetary spheres look to the bestowals of these Paradise Sons for reliable and trustworthy information regarding the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
2. Deity Personalization
(109.5) 10:2.1 By the technique of trinitization the Father divests himself of that unqualified spirit personality which is the Son, but in so doing he constitutes himself the Father of this very Son and thereby possesses himself of unlimited capacity to become the divine Father of all subsequently created, eventuated, or other personalized types of intelligent will creatures. As the absolute and unqualified personality the Father can function only as and with the Son, but as a personal Father he continues to bestow personality upon the diverse hosts of the differing levels of intelligent will creatures, and he forever maintains personal relations of loving association with this vast family of universe children.
(109.6) 10:2.2 After the Father has bestowed upon the personality of his Son the fullness of himself, and when this act of self-bestowal is complete and perfect, of the infinite power and nature which are thus existent in the Father-Son union, the eternal partners conjointly bestow those qualities and attributes which constitute still another being like themselves; and this conjoint personality, the Infinite Spirit, completes the existential personalization of Deity.
(110.1) 10:2.3 The Son is indispensable to the fatherhood of God. The Spirit is indispensable to the fraternity of the Second and Third Persons. Three persons are a minimum social group, but this is least of all the many reasons for believing in the inevitability of the Conjoint Actor.
(110.2) 10:2.4 The First Source and Center is the infinite father-personality, the unlimited source personality. The Eternal Son is the unqualified personality-absolute, that divine being who stands throughout all time and eternity as the perfect revelation of the personal nature of God. The Infinite Spirit is the conjoint personality, the unique personal consequence of the everlasting Father-Son union.
(110.3) 10:2.5 The personality of the First Source and Center is the personality of infinity minus the absolute personality of the Eternal Son. The personality of the Third Source and Center is the superadditive consequence of the union of the liberated Father-personality and the absolute Son-personality.
(110.4) 10:2.6 The Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit are unique persons; none is a duplicate; each is original; all are united.
(110.5) 10:2.7 The Eternal Son alone experiences the fullness of divine personality relationship, consciousness of both sonship with the Father and paternity to the Spirit and of divine equality with both Father-ancestor and Spirit-associate. The Father knows the experience of having a Son who is his equal, but the Father knows no ancestral antecedents. The Eternal Son has the experience of sonship, recognition of personality ancestry, and at the same time the Son is conscious of being joint parent to the Infinite Spirit. The Infinite Spirit is conscious of twofold personality ancestry but is not parental to a co-ordinate Deity personality. With the Spirit the existential cycle of Deity personalization attains completion; the primary personalities of the Third Source and Center are experiential and are seven in number.
(110.6) 10:2.8 I am of origin in the Paradise Trinity. I know the Trinity as unified Deity; I also know that the Father, Son, and Spirit exist and act in their definite personal capacities. I positively know that they not only act personally and collectively, but that they also co-ordinate their performances in various groupings, so that in the end they function in seven different singular and plural capacities. And since these seven associations exhaust the possibilities for such divinity combination, it is inevitable that the realities of the universe shall appear in seven variations of values, meanings, and personality.
3. The Three Persons of Deity
(110.7) 10:3.1 Notwithstanding there is only one Deity, there are three positive and divine personalizations of Deity. Regarding the endowment of man with the divine Adjusters, the Father said: “Let us make mortal man in our own image.” Repeatedly throughout the Urantian writings there occurs this reference to the acts and doings of plural Deity, clearly showing recognition of the existence and working of the three Sources and Centers.
(110.8) 10:3.2 We are taught that the Son and the Spirit sustain the same and equal relations to the Father in the Trinity association. In eternity and as Deities they undoubtedly do, but in time and as personalities they certainly disclose relati
onships of a very diverse nature. Looking from Paradise out on the universes, these relationships do seem to be very similar, but when viewed from the domains of space, they appear to be quite different.(111.1) 10:3.3 The divine Sons are indeed the “Word of God,” but the children of the Spirit are truly the “Act of God.” God speaks through the Son and, with the Son, acts through the Infinite Spirit, while in all universe activities the Son and the Spirit are exquisitely fraternal, working as two equal brothers with admiration and love for an honored and divinely respected common Father.
(111.2) 10:3.4 The Father, Son, and Spirit are certainly equal in nature, co-ordinate in being, but there are unmistakable differences in their universe performances, and when acting alone, each person of Deity is apparently limited in absoluteness.
(111.3) 10:3.5 The Universal Father, prior to his self-willed divestment of the personality, powers, and attributes which constitute the Son and the Spirit, seems to have been (philosophically considered) an unqualified, absolute, and infinite Deity. But such a theoretical First Source and Center without a Son could not in any sense of the word be considered the Universal Father; fatherhood is not real without sonship. Furthermore, the Father, to have been absolute in a total sense, must have existed at some eternally distant moment alone. But he never had such a solitary existence; the Son and the Spirit are both coeternal with the Father. The First Source and Center has always been, and will forever be, the eternal Father of the Original Son and, with the Son, the eternal progenitor of the Infinite Spirit.
(111.4) 10:3.6 We observe that the Father has divested himself of all direct manifestations of absoluteness except absolute fatherhood and absolute volition. We do not know whether volition is an inalienable attribute of the Father; we can only observe that he did not divest himself of volition. Such infinity of will must have been eternally inherent in the First Source and Center.
(111.5) 10:3.7 In bestowing absoluteness of personality upon the Eternal Son, the Universal Father escapes from the fetters of personality absolutism, but in so doing he takes a step which makes it forever impossible for him to act alone as the personality-absolute. And with the final personalization of coexistent Deity — the Conjoint Actor — there ensues the critical trinitarian interdependence of the three divine personalities with regard to the totality of Deity function in absolute.
(111.6) 10:3.8 God is the Father-Absolute of all personalities in the universe of universes. The Father is personally absolute in liberty of action, but in the universes of time and space, made, in the making, and yet to be made, the Father is not discernibly absolute as total Deity except in the Paradise Trinity.
(111.7) 10:3.9 The First Source and Center functions outside of Havona in the phenomenal universes as follows:
(111.8) 10:3.10 1. As creator, through the Creator Sons, his grandsons.
(111.9) 10:3.11 2. As controller, through the gravity center of Paradise.
(111.10) 10:3.12 3. As spirit, through the Eternal Son.
(111.11) 10:3.13 4. As mind, through the Conjoint Creator.
(111.12) 10:3.14 5. As a Father, he maintains parental contact with all creatures through his personality circuit.
(111.13) 10:3.15 6. As a person, he acts directly throughout creation by his exclusive fragments — in mortal man by the Thought Adjusters.
(111.14) 10:3.16 7. As total Deity, he functions only in the Paradise Trinity.
(112.1) 10:3.17 All these relinquishments and delegations of jurisdiction by the Universal Father are wholly voluntary and self-imposed. The all-powerful Father purposefully assumes these limitations of universe authority.
(112.2) 10:3.18 The Eternal Son seems to function as one with the Father in all spiritual respects except in the bestowals of the God fragments and in other prepersonal activities. Neither is the Son closely identified with the intellectual activities of material creatures nor with the energy activities of the material universes. As absolute the Son functions as a person and only in the domain of the spiritual universe.
(112.3) 10:3.19 The Infinite Spirit is amazingly universal and unbelievably versatile in all his operations. He performs in the spheres of mind, matter, and spirit. The Conjoint Actor represents the Father-Son association, but he also functions as himself. He is not directly concerned with physical gravity, with spiritual gravity, or with the personality circuit, but he more or less participates in all other universe activities. While apparently dependent on three existential and absolute gravity controls, the Infinite Spirit appears to exercise three supercontrols. This threefold endowment is employed in many ways to transcend and seemingly to neutralize even the manifestations of primary forces and energies, right up to the superultimate borders of absoluteness. In certain situations these supercontrols absolutely transcend even the primal manifestations of cosmic reality.
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,14:45) Continuing to call my understanding of God to be a Harlet puts you in the “ass hat” range. So I can see why you benefit from the insightful ness of your pyramid.
Colter I am not name calling, I am merely quoting scripture. It is God doing the name calling, not me. He is the only one able to truly give people and organisations names that reflect their nature.He calls her by the following titles:
“Great Whore, Mystery Babylon, and the Mother of Harlots.”
God judged Babylon for her idolatry and chief among this practice was the Babylonian Trinity.
Nimrod (Father)
Tammuz (Son)
Semiramis (Dove)And this is what God says to do about her. Up to you whether you want to turn a deaf ear to this. But ignorance is not bliss Colter. People are destroyed because of ignorance.
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.' 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.”
Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,14:41) Bodhitharta, This s the answer to your question from the UB:
1. Self-Distribution of the First Source and Center
(108.4) 10:1.1 It would seem that the Father, back in eternity, inaugurated a policy of profound self-distribution. There is inherent in the selfless, loving, and lovable nature of the Universal Father something which causes him to reserve to himself the exercise of only those powers and that authority which he apparently finds it impossible to delegate or to bestow.
(108.5) 10:1.2 The Universal Father all along has divested himself of every part of himself that was bestowable on any other Creator or creature. He has delegated to his divine Sons and their associated intelligences every power and all authority that could be delegated. He has actually transferred to his Sovereign Sons, in their respective universes, every prerogative of administrative authority that was transferable. In the affairs of a local universe, he has made each Sovereign Creator Son just as perfect, competent, and authoritative as is the Eternal Son in the original and central universe. He has given away, actually bestowed, with the dignity and sanctity of personality possession, all of himself and all of his attributes, everything he possibly could divest himself of, in every way, in every age, in every place, and to every person, and in every universe except that of his central indwelling.
(109.1) 10:1.3 Divine personality is not self-centered; self-distribution and sharing of personality characterize divine freewill selfhood. Creatures crave association with other personal creatures; Creators are moved to share divinity with their universe children; the personality of the Infinite is disclosed as the Universal Father, who shares reality of being and equality of self with two co-ordinate personalities, the Eternal Son and the Conjoint Actor.
(109.2) 10:1.4 For knowledge concerning the Father’s personality and divine attributes we will always be dependent on the revelations of the Eternal Son, for when the conjoint act of creation was effected, when the Third Person of Deity sprang into personality existence and executed the combined concepts of his divine parents, the Father ceased to exist as the unqualified personality. With the coming into being of the Conjoint Actor and the materialization of the central core of creation, certain eternal changes took place. God gave himself as an absolute personality to his Eternal Son. Thus does the Father bestow the “personality of infinity” upon his only-begotten Son, while they both bestow the “conjoint personality” of their eternal union upon the Infinite Spirit.
(109.3) 10:1.5 For these and other reasons beyond the concept of the finite mind, it is exceedingly difficult for the human creature to comprehend God’s infinite father-personality except as it is universally revealed in the Eternal Son and, with the Son, is universally active in the Infinite Spirit.
(109.4) 10:1.6 Since the Paradise Sons of God visit the evolutionary worlds and sometimes even there dwell in the likeness of mortal flesh, and since these bestowals make it possible for mortal man actually to know something of the nature and character of divine personality, therefore must the creatures of the planetary spheres look to the bestowals of these Paradise Sons for reliable and trustworthy information regarding the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
2. Deity Personalization
(109.5) 10:2.1 By the technique of trinitization the Father divests himself of that unqualified spirit personality which is the Son, but in so doing he constitutes himself the Father of this very Son and thereby possesses himself of unlimited capacity to become the divine Father of all subsequently created, eventuated, or other personalized types of intelligent will creatures. As the absolute and unqualified personality the Father can function only as and with the Son, but as a personal Father he continues to bestow personality upon the diverse hosts of the differing levels of intelligent will creatures, and he forever maintains personal relations of loving association with this vast family of universe children.
(109.6) 10:2.2 After the Father has bestowed upon the personality of his Son the fullness of himself, and when this act of self-bestowal is complete and perfect, of the infinite power and nature which are thus existent in the Father-Son union, the eternal partners conjointly bestow those qualities and attributes which constitute still another being like themselves; and this conjoint personality, the Infinite Spirit, completes the existential personalization of Deity.
(110.1) 10:2.3 The Son is indispensable to the fatherhood of God. The Spirit is indispensable to the fraternity of the Second and Third Persons. Three persons are a minimum social group, but this is least of all the many reasons for believing in the inevitability of the Conjoint Actor.
(110.2) 10:2.4 The First Source and Center is the infinite father-personality, the unlimited source personality. The Eternal Son is the unqualified personality-absolute, that divine being who stands throughout all time and eternity as the perfect revelation of the personal nature of God. The Infinite Spirit is the conjoint personality, the unique personal consequence of the everlasting Father-Son union.
(110.3) 10:2.5 The personality of the First Source and Center is the personality of infinity minus the absolute personality of the Eternal Son. The personality of the Third Source and Center is the superadditive consequence of the union of the liberated Father-personality and the absolute Son-personality.
(110.4) 10:2.6 The Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit are unique persons; none is a duplicate; each is original; all are united.
(110.5) 10:2.7 The Eternal Son alone experiences the fullness of divine personality relationship, consciousness of both sonship with the Father and paternity to the Spirit and of divine equality with both Father-ancestor and Spirit-associate. The Father knows the experience of having a Son who is his equal, but the Father knows no ancestral antecedents. The Eternal Son has the experience of sonship, recognition of personality ancestry, and at the same time the Son is conscious of being joint parent to the Infinite Spirit. The Infinite Spirit is conscious of twofold personality ancestry but is not parental to a co-ordinate Deity personality. With the Spirit the existential cycle of Deity personalization attains completion; the primary personalities of the Third Source and Center are experiential and are seven in number.
(110.6) 10:2.8 I am of origin in the Paradise Trinity. I know the Trinity as unified Deity; I also know that the Father, Son, and Spirit exist and act in their definite personal capacities. I positively know that they not only act personally and collectively, but that they also co-ordinate their performances in various groupings, so that in the end they function in seven different singular and plural capacities. And since these seven associations exhaust the possibilities for such divinity combination, it is inevitable that the realities of the universe shall appear in seven variations of values, meanings, and personality.
3. The Three Persons of Deity
(110.7) 10:3.1 Notwithstanding there is only one Deity, there are three positive and divine personalizations of Deity. Regarding the endowment of man with the divine Adjusters, the Father said: “Let us make mortal man in our own image.” Repeatedly throughout the Urantian writings there occurs this reference to the acts and doings of plural Deity, clearly showing recognition of the existence and working of the three Sources and Centers.
(110.8) 10:3.2 We are taught
that the Son and the Spirit sustain the same and equal relations to the Father in the Trinity association. In eternity and as Deities they undoubtedly do, but in time and as personalities they certainly disclose relationships of a very diverse nature. Looking from Paradise out on the universes, these relationships do seem to be very similar, but when viewed from the domains of space, they appear to be quite different.(111.1) 10:3.3 The divine Sons are indeed the “Word of God,” but the children of the Spirit are truly the “Act of God.” God speaks through the Son and, with the Son, acts through the Infinite Spirit, while in all universe activities the Son and the Spirit are exquisitely fraternal, working as two equal brothers with admiration and love for an honored and divinely respected common Father.
(111.2) 10:3.4 The Father, Son, and Spirit are certainly equal in nature, co-ordinate in being, but there are unmistakable differences in their universe performances, and when acting alone, each person of Deity is apparently limited in absoluteness.
(111.3) 10:3.5 The Universal Father, prior to his self-willed divestment of the personality, powers, and attributes which constitute the Son and the Spirit, seems to have been (philosophically considered) an unqualified, absolute, and infinite Deity. But such a theoretical First Source and Center without a Son could not in any sense of the word be considered the Universal Father; fatherhood is not real without sonship. Furthermore, the Father, to have been absolute in a total sense, must have existed at some eternally distant moment alone. But he never had such a solitary existence; the Son and the Spirit are both coeternal with the Father. The First Source and Center has always been, and will forever be, the eternal Father of the Original Son and, with the Son, the eternal progenitor of the Infinite Spirit.
(111.4) 10:3.6 We observe that the Father has divested himself of all direct manifestations of absoluteness except absolute fatherhood and absolute volition. We do not know whether volition is an inalienable attribute of the Father; we can only observe that he did not divest himself of volition. Such infinity of will must have been eternally inherent in the First Source and Center.
(111.5) 10:3.7 In bestowing absoluteness of personality upon the Eternal Son, the Universal Father escapes from the fetters of personality absolutism, but in so doing he takes a step which makes it forever impossible for him to act alone as the personality-absolute. And with the final personalization of coexistent Deity — the Conjoint Actor — there ensues the critical trinitarian interdependence of the three divine personalities with regard to the totality of Deity function in absolute.
(111.6) 10:3.8 God is the Father-Absolute of all personalities in the universe of universes. The Father is personally absolute in liberty of action, but in the universes of time and space, made, in the making, and yet to be made, the Father is not discernibly absolute as total Deity except in the Paradise Trinity.
(111.7) 10:3.9 The First Source and Center functions outside of Havona in the phenomenal universes as follows:
(111.8) 10:3.10 1. As creator, through the Creator Sons, his grandsons.
(111.9) 10:3.11 2. As controller, through the gravity center of Paradise.
(111.10) 10:3.12 3. As spirit, through the Eternal Son.
(111.11) 10:3.13 4. As mind, through the Conjoint Creator.
(111.12) 10:3.14 5. As a Father, he maintains parental contact with all creatures through his personality circuit.
(111.13) 10:3.15 6. As a person, he acts directly throughout creation by his exclusive fragments — in mortal man by the Thought Adjusters.
(111.14) 10:3.16 7. As total Deity, he functions only in the Paradise Trinity.
(112.1) 10:3.17 All these relinquishments and delegations of jurisdiction by the Universal Father are wholly voluntary and self-imposed. The all-powerful Father purposefully assumes these limitations of universe authority.
(112.2) 10:3.18 The Eternal Son seems to function as one with the Father in all spiritual respects except in the bestowals of the God fragments and in other prepersonal activities. Neither is the Son closely identified with the intellectual activities of material creatures nor with the energy activities of the material universes. As absolute the Son functions as a person and only in the domain of the spiritual universe.
(112.3) 10:3.19 The Infinite Spirit is amazingly universal and unbelievably versatile in all his operations. He performs in the spheres of mind, matter, and spirit. The Conjoint Actor represents the Father-Son association, but he also functions as himself. He is not directly concerned with physical gravity, with spiritual gravity, or with the personality circuit, but he more or less participates in all other universe activities. While apparently dependent on three existential and absolute gravity controls, the Infinite Spirit appears to exercise three supercontrols. This threefold endowment is employed in many ways to transcend and seemingly to neutralize even the manifestations of primary forces and energies, right up to the superultimate borders of absoluteness. In certain situations these supercontrols absolutely transcend even the primal manifestations of cosmic reality.
That was in no way an answer to my question so once againDo you agree that in Rank/Degree Jesus is not equal to “Father”?
Also, If a portion of a unit is not equal to the whole of itself how can that unit be indivisible?
Do You see, If the Father gives ALL authority to the son it would not include the authority of the Father who gave it to him because if it did he woul not need the Father to give the Authority to him, correct?
BTW, it is perfectly fine to say you don't feel comfortable answering the question or to say you don't know the answer
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,13:45) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:15) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:53) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:34) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 15 2013,12:24) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,12:17) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,11:17) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,13:03) I've never said that Jesus was God the Father-(the first source and center) Jesus is the Son of God (thats not being a Son of himself) he is a personification of the Father, he was with the Father in the begining, in eternity.
You missed the point.God Jesus and the Spirit means that Jesus is not God.
You believe in a Trinity that includes Jesus as God.
No one is accusing you of saying that Jesus is the Father.
It is about Jesus being God. Scripture is clear. Jesus is the son of God. This is the foundation of the Church which is the Body of Christ. Whereas the Trinity is the foundation of the harlot church.
No, your cherry picking of the scripture is clear to ->you<-! Their are many Trinitarians in the world who disagree with what you have convinced yourself is so "clear". Jesus is in heaven right now as Lord and God weather you have faith in that or not.Colter
Okay, so you say Jesus is lord and God, correct?So, does Jesus have a God?
Jeus is a divine creator who has a Father. He and the Father are one in divinity, to see him is to see the Father. NO ONE gets to the Father except through the Son. While voluntarily incarnate on the earth as a human Jesus was subject to the will of his Father. In doing so the Son has now experienced being Human, he is now and forever more both Human and divine.Jeus the Son has always been the way, he didn't become a new way, a mediator. Jesus never called himself a mediator, he referred to himself by divine rite, with power and authority.
Colter
So, does Jesus have a God? Yes or NOsaying he has a Father is not really answering, is “His Father” his God does his Father have authority over him?
Yes, You could say the Father has authority over him? Jesus is just like his Father? Jesus is a divine being, he is unified with his Father as a creator. Jesus does as his Father does. But because Jesus is himself a God it's not appropriate to say he has a God, for he and God are indistinguishable.Colter
So you agree that in Rank/Degree Jesus is not equal to “Father”?Also, If a portion of a unit is not equal to the whole of itself how can that unit be indivisible?
You see, If the Father gives ALL authority to the son it would not include the authority of the Father who gave it to him because if it did he woul not need the Father to give the Authority to him, correct?
Boditharta.Gods right hand can not act without Gods will.
wakeup.
Quote That was in no way an answer to my question so once again Do you agree that in Rank/Degree Jesus is not equal to “Father”?
Also, If a portion of a unit is not equal to the whole of itself how can that unit be indivisible?
Do You see, If the Father gives ALL authority to the son it would not include the authority of the Father who gave it to him because if it did he woul not need the Father to give the Authority to him, correct?
BTW, it is perfectly fine to say you don't feel comfortable answering the question or to say you don't know the answer
I thought the explanation of the “self distribution” of the first source and center would have answered your question.
God is not a machine or a mathematical formula limited by physics, God is physics, and God is the master mathematician. I understand your question, but it is based on a false premise. Atheist debate like that frankly.
Eternal paradise is the “pattern” from which the Creator Sons are made.
The answer to your question is that the portion of the unit IS equal to the Unit in terms of finite man and his relation to the deities.
“Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does”……..” I am in the Father AND THE FATHER IS IN ME”
Colter
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 15 2013,15:57) Quote (Colter @ Aug. 15 2013,14:45) Continuing to call my understanding of God to be a Harlet puts you in the “ass hat” range. So I can see why you benefit from the insightful ness of your pyramid.
Colter I am not name calling, I am merely quoting scripture. It is God doing the name calling, not me. He is the only one able to truly give people and organisations names that reflect their nature.He calls her by the following titles:
“Great Whore, Mystery Babylon, and the Mother of Harlots.”
God judged Babylon for her idolatry and chief among this practice was the Babylonian Trinity.
Nimrod (Father)
Tammuz (Son)
Semiramis (Dove)And this is what God says to do about her. Up to you whether you want to turn a deaf ear to this. But ignorance is not bliss Colter. People are destroyed because of ignorance.
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.' 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.”
Blame God, that's rich! Then God calls you a hypocrite, a serpent and a viper for rejecting the latest revelation of truth!“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,[f] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
The Trinity didn't judge anyone for believing in the Trinity, but he did take away his protection of Israel after they rejected a Son of the Trinity incarnate.
Colter
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