- This topic has 1,701 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Nick………Question , where it says , that who soever believes in Him, Should not parish but have everlasting life. WHO is the HIM in (YOUR VIEW)?
love and peace to you…………………..gene
Greetings in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ
First, so you know something of me, I am a christian of no denomination who does NOT hold the doctrine of the trinity.
I began reading this topic because I am interested in the opinions of those who hold the doctrine of “universal salvation”. At this point I do not but am willing to listen. However, all I have seen in the main is people beating each other over the head with scripture after scripture and thus am confused. I take it that Nick and his likeminded do not accept this belief, while the remainder do.
So, perhaps in an effort to refresh your sayings on the matter, I will state my current position with the freedom of speach we have received the right to use.
I believe that both the scriptures and the Spirit indicate that it was our lord's task to bring forth a people for Gods name, who would in return receive everlasting life as spirit creatures together as a kingdom in God's service, the first such service being, simply by their own existance, proving that God is right, i.e. his creation was perfect, firstly for himself and also for itself. For, for it to be otherwise would be to prove the accusations of the accuser and his followers to be right. And never may that happen. Moreover, all that is recounted in the Bible is, among other things, the plan and story of how a fully rightious state of creation is to be brought about.
Now, in accordance with his aforeknowledge of all things that would take place, God placed a “spirit” component in that part of creation called “man” so that, in spite of the advent of sin, a means of producing righteous men would be preserved, even unto him knowing before the beginning of creation who each individual one of them would be. The only thing is that they would make this choice, not God.
I could prattle on regardless on the aforementioned matter, but it's near to both my bed time and my state of verbosity so I will try to get to the point. It seems that there has always been two classes of man – those who are for God (SAINTS OR HOLY ONES) and those who are not. Moreover, the second class can be divided into those who only think to do evil all the time and those who at critical points listen to their consciences (their own spirtual voice). I find this entirely consistant with all scripture, culminating in the various fortunes of all men who have ever existed as defined in the book of Revelation. Holy Ones will be raised to be with God together with their head and brother Christ. Alternatively, after certain processes, the rest will either be either raised to a state of perfect flesh or raised and put to everlasting non-existance. The complexities arise out of the fact that the scriptures indicate and discuss that there are different “regiments” of Holy Ones, and it is this matter that needs to be sorted out if it is a big deal to you, i.e. are faithful Israelites in or out, who are the 144000 verses the great crowd, etc.
The point is however, in working this matter out it is of paramount importance to remember that we, the faithful, are here right now to serve God, not our own egos, etc.
I leave this for your consideration
May all power be to the Majesty In heaven and may the love of his son, Jesus Christ be with you
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2009,03:17) Nick………Question , where it says , that who soever believes in Him, Should not parish but have everlasting life. WHO is the HIM in (YOUR VIEW)? love and peace to you…………………..gene
GB,
Those who believe have eternal life by the Spirit of Life that is given to them. God knows those who are his and belonging to Christ requires that we share his Spirit.[rom8]But belief is not intellectual consent but rather repentance and commitment, affirmed by obedience to the command to be baptised.
Acts 16
14And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Acts 16
29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Hi RS,
Do not misconstrue what you see here. There has been an assault by a few noisy universalists on this site for the last couple of years but they are in the minority. They have been effective in driving underground those who cannot tolerate their well organised barrage of misinformation and they have upset the faith of many. But they will get bored and wander off as there is no future in such empty philosophy and scripture is never bowed.Your post suggests some things to be clarified:
That creation was perfect?
That every natural man has the Spirit of God?
That men can be good of their own nature?
That flesh can inherit the kingdom?These things seem misaligned with scripture.
Can you help sort these matters for us?Nick…..Again you dodged the question , tell us who is being talked about here , For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son , that whosoever believes in (Him) should have life everlasting. Question who is the (HIM) here. is it Jesus or GOD the Father, a simple answer will suffice. Which on is it.?
peace and love…………………gene
Gb,
Jn3
16for God did so love the world, that His Son — the only begotten — He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.17For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Believing in the name of the only begotten Son of God is the watershed decision.
Hi Nick
Yes, I would be glad to clarify these four matters for you in terms of my understanding:
That creation was perfect? Yes! For there was an evening and a morning (on the sixth day), and he saw that it was good. Even Satan was created perfect and was so until he coverted God's throne (Ezek 28:15). As they say in the classics – ain't free will a bitch.
That every natural man has the Spirit of God? No! I did not mean that, I meant that every man has his own spiritual dimension. Other animals do not. God himself referred to it after the deluge in saying “that he is ALSO flesh” (Gen 6:3), at which point He began to withdraw the extra life support He had afforded man till then through his own spirit, thus reducing the nominal life of man to 120 years. However, we did get the right to eat meat out of it. Further, our Lord Jesus referred to it in saying on the mount that those who are aware of it and it's need are blessed. I myself believe, and am here speaking as a man, that the failure to be aware of our own spiritual nature leads us to attempt to fill the void with vanities such as excessive alcohol, sexual perversions and such, for sin is always waiting for an opportunity..
That men can be good of their own nature? Certainly, but it depends on what you mean by GOOD and whether you mean all the time. Men can never be GOOD, for “only one is good”. However, man can DO good, examples of which we see every day as exemplified by the good samaritan. Paul referred to this in talking about how those without THE law can be a law unto themselves in listening to their conscience, i.e. their own spirit.
That flesh can inherit the kingdom? No! I do not see where I implied this. Perhaps my prose is off. When I said “the rest will either be raised to a state of perfect flesh”, I was referring to the fact that men (and of course women) who survive the judgement of the second death will be returned to the perfect physical condition that Adam had before he was disobedient and sin entered the world. Flesh will inherit the earth. Those of us who are raised to inherit the Kingdom will be spirit in nature, for flesh cannot survive in the direct presence of God. Besides, Our Lord informs us that we should hate the fact that we are yet flesh if we are to inherit the kingdom. The problem for those who believe but wish to remain flesh, such as the rank and file of the JWs, is that God has not provided for this option. Those who are raised to everlasting life as flesh to dwell upon the earth will be so raised because of what they DID (and I suppose what they did not do), and not because they are righteous through faith. This is explained to us by our Lord in talking to the man who came to him and asked how he could receive everlasting life and was told to DO the 10 commandments. Stating he wanted more (to inherit the kingdom), our Lord told him that he must follow him.
I hope this has clarified things for you concerning my beliefs Nick. As implied, they are not set in stone as I know that I only see through a glass darkly.
May the Spirit remain with you
GM
Hi RS,
Yes GOOD.
But scripture does not say PERFECT so neither should we.We all have a spirit like the animals do giving us life, but we also, in Adam, have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil so we have an awareness of moral things. This conscience can be still unsullied in some[rom2].
We are given a NEW HEAVENLY body alike to the Son of God so this is different to Adam's flesh. Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom[1cor15]
Hi……….Flesh and Blood can not enter into the kingdom of God , but the Kingdom of God can inter into flesh and blood, it is in all the Saints who are still alive and was also in Jesus Christ, who was flesh and blood. The kingdom of GOD is in (you) , you are not in it.
love and peace to all…………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 14 2009,13:32) Hi……….Flesh and Blood can not enter into the kingdom of God , but the Kingdom of God can inter into flesh and blood, it is in all the Saints who are still alive and was also in Jesus Christ, who was flesh and blood. The kingdom of GOD is in (you) , you are not in it. love and peace to all…………………gene
Hi Gene:The scripture does not say “enter the kingdom”. It says:
Quote 1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Quote Hi……….Flesh and Blood can not enter into the kingdom of God , but the Kingdom of God can inter into flesh and blood, it is in all the Saints who are still alive and was also in Jesus Christ, who was flesh and blood. The kingdom of GOD is in (you) , you are not in it. love and peace to all…………………gene
flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, (1 Cor 15:50)
“the Kingdom of God can inter into flesh and blood,” (UNKNOWN)
“it is in all the Saints who are still alive and was also in Jesus Christ” (ALSO UNKNOWN.)Notice scriptures that say the opposite of that last statement:
Regarding the saints:
REVELATION 1:6
“and he made us to be a kingdom,” (Also Rev 5:9,10; Dan 7:18,22,27; James 2:5; Rev 3:21; 20:4,5; 22:3-5; Luke 22:28-30; Luke 12:32)Regarding Jesus:
DANIEL 7:13, 14:
“And to him [to Jesus Christ] there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom,”
ISAIAH 9:6,7:
“and the government will be upon his shoulder”So, the SCRIPTURES say, that, rather than being this kingdom being “in” them, Jesus and the saints (holy ones) would make up this government.
Quote The scripture does not say “enter the kingdom”. It says: Quote
1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood CANNOT INHERIT the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.True, further, regarding “inheriting” the kingdom, we notice that some are spoken of as “heirs.”
JAMES 2:5
“Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and HEIRS OF THE KINGDOM, which he promised to those who love him, did he not?”These ones are joint heirs with Christ, regarding the kingdom.
ROMANS 8:17
“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (See Heb 1:2)David………God does not rule external of any one He rules(IN) a person. “the son of man can do nothing of himself, the Father in him do the the works”, Can't you realize GOD rules inside a person not external of Him. You have you eyes on the physical effects and are not seeing where the real Power and Cause is , it is in the mind and heart of all of God children . “the kingdom of God comes not with observation , it is within you”. David you mean you don't understand that. There is nothing hard to understand about that. Will there be a physical kingdom yes but the true power of it is in the heart and minds, of Jesus and the Saints, not the people in general, that why at the end when evil is again released on the earth immediately the whole world follows it, with the exception of Jesus and the Saints. Why is that David if the people in that kingdom were of GODS true Kingdom. The only ones who were in the true Kingdom of GOD was Jesus and the Saints no one else. The rest were there to prove a point , but that another subject.
peace to you………………..gene
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote “the kingdom of God comes not with observation , it is within you”. David you mean you don't understand that. You tend to remove words from scriptures, Gene
“on being asked BY THE PHARISEES when the kingdom of God was coming,
he ANSWERED T H E M (ie: “the pharisees” Gene) and said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’
[Then, he explains why he could say the above. He uses the word “for” which shows he's about to explain the above]
FOR, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst.””
Gene, have you noticed that I can see the scriptures you quote (Luke 17:21) and that you never seem to notice or see, or comment on or acknowledge any scriptures I quote.
Quote Will there be a physical kingdom yes but the true power of it is in the heart and minds, of Jesus and the Saints
Why is it that I have scriptures on my side and you do not?
Why is it that I can quote several scriptures that show plainly and without question that Jesus and the holy ones make up the kingdom, but you can't do the same to show your understanding?
I believe it's because you're wrong and basing your beliefs on one single scripture in a few Bible's that were translated badly, whereas I have the whole rest of the Bible (any Bible) and am using the whole of scripture, rather than tradition.
Can you prove that this isn't the case, by showing me some scriptures that back up your beliefs?
I didn't think so.
So, they are just your ideas.david.
Quote hat why at the end when evil is again released on the earth immediately the whole world follows it, with the exception of Jesus and the Saints You really really really have to start quoting some scriptures Gene. Please.
I'm not really certain what point or even what you were asking me at the end of that post. If we could start with the actual scripture you're referring to , that would be good.
david
David ….I have but you don't believe what it says you change it to meet you taught JW Views, If Jesus said the kingdom comes without observation but is within you, why change that to fit you JW teachings. My point about the end of the thousand year rule was to show how the Kingdom of GOD as JW's describe to everyone comes crashing down to nothing. Why is that David when everyone is so happy and the lions and children are all playing together. What happens to this utopia you call the kingdom of GOD, when in fact its the kingdom of Jesus Christ. The only ones who were truly in GOD'S Kingdom were Jesus and the Saints, and why was that David , it was because the true Kingdom of GOd was inside them, that where GOD rules, external effects are a result of Cause and that cause is internal, not external. And there is where the Kingdom of GOD has it's rule.
love and peace to you……………………gene
Quote If Jesus said the kingdom comes without observation but is within you, why change that to fit you JW teachings. Because we're not certain that is what he said Gene. Our english versions are translations.
Looking at the context (speaking to pharisees) and the context of the whole Bible (the hundreds of other scriptures about the kingdom) it becomes clear what a more accurate translation should be:Some examples:
The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation)
“For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (NASB)
“Because God's kingdom is already among you.” (The Message)
“For the Kingdom of God is already among you.[a]” (New Living)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[a] (English Standard)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Darby Translation)
“the kingdom of God is among you.” (holman)
“God's kingdom is among you.” (New International readers version)
“because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” [a] (todays new international version)
“The kingdom of God is among you” (The New English Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (The Jerusalem Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (Revised Standard Version)
“God’s royal majesty is among you.” (The Emphatic Diaglott)Quote My point about the end of the thousand year rule was to show how the Kingdom of GOD as JW's describe to everyone comes crashing down to nothing. Why is that David when everyone is so happy and the lions and children are all playing together. What happens to this utopia you call the kingdom of GOD, when in fact its the kingdom of Jesus Christ. The only ones who were truly in GOD'S Kingdom were Jesus and the Saints, and why was that David , it was because the true Kingdom of GOd was inside them, that where GOD rules, external effects are a result of Cause and that cause is internal, not external. And there is where the Kingdom of GOD has it's rule. Use some scriptures.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
