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Hi GM,
But you have explained in another thread how the apostles wrote what folk could accept,
not what was said to them by Jesus ,
so what did he say?Nick……the disciples as well as Jesus was educated and articulated the present existence of their day. Do you actually think they had the knowledge of our day?, they did not, some of them could not even read or write , while the Spirit gave them some spiritual understanding as to who Jesus was and His message , but to think they had the complete picture is not true, they had what was needed to be saved and inter eternal life as we should also, but to think they as well as Jesus or for that matter us have all knowledge is just not true. There were many things Jesus did not understand, but what God Gave Him he spoke to us and that was regarding the Kingdom of GOD and the forgiveness of our sins, and that was what mattered. He Brought the good news of the kingdom of GOD. IMO
peace…………gene
Hi GB,
So they were their own words and not God's Word?
You understand more than Jesus Christ?
Of what anointing are you then?Hi GB,
If you know more than Jesus and he spoke the words given to him by God
do you know more than God?
You are deceived.Nick…..i think you are the one decieved , we all know somethings more then Jesus did at that time because as Jesus Said Knowledge would be increased and greater thing would you do then i. It's you who does not believe the words of Jesus or you would understand his words. And when did i (EVER SAY) i know more then GOD. When are you going to stop misrepresenting what people say or add to what they say, what spirit is that from certainly not of GOD.
Quote Christ speaks of the “whole body” being “cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30.) If it be replied that the body would be destroyed by the flames, and therefore only the spirit would be left, we ask for the Bible proof that spirits, or souls, are impervious to fire. Christ declared we should “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. If “destroy” means consume as regards the “body”, we demand very clear proof if we are expected to believe that “destroy” means to leave unconsumed as regards the “soul.” A failure to produce such proof really takes the whole point out of the objection based on Mark 9 and Isaiah 66. In Mark 9:43-48 Christ quite evidently refers to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read: “They [the righteous] shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses [“dead bodies,” A.R.V.] of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.” We are told in so many words that the agencies of “work” and “fire” are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies, dead bodies.
The word “hell” used in Mark 9:43-48 is from the Greek word Gehenna. This term, as we have learned, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, “used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon.)
Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were “not quenched,” was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed. To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture.
The question may now be asked: If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, it will not. A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago. If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago was still burning? No, you would simply understand that the fire raged until it had devoured everything within reach. Common knowledge makes unnecessary the additional statement that the fire itself then died down.
Your whole argument falls apart in the fact that the unrighteous will have a resurrection, why would they have one unless they get bodies that are able to burn eternally? (Acts 24:15) Their bodies will be like our resureccted bodies, indestructable. The only difference will be the purpose they serve. One to eternal death (seperation) and the other unto eternal life.
Quote No. Because the scriptures give us the penalty for sin. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen 2:17
God never mentions eternal torment to Adam or to Moses in the law.
For the wages of sin is death; (not eternal torment), but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
You are simply using an argument from silence which is not the best idea in a debate. I could just as easily say “The bible never says to drive a car, thus, driving a car is not biblical!” To use the argument “it isn't directely mentioned in the bible” is foolishness. I could use that same argument for masturbation, “it isn't directely mentioned in the Bible, thus i can masterbate all the time”. Obviously, because of IMPLICATION we know it is wrong. So it is with Hell being Eternal.
Furthermore, your use of the passage in Genesis is not helping. What is death but seperation? (James 2:26) What happend when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit? They were seperated from God physically and spiritually, thus needing Christ to reconcile them. God had grace though that He did not fully kill them, as in they were left alive physically, giving them a chance for redemption.
Besides all that, you still have the problem of pure logic. Logic dictates that God, to remain Holy and Just, must give a punishment equal to the crime. God is infinite in worth, thus offending Him would require an equal punishment, infinite. Only in one place is the Bible illogical, God loving an evil sinner like me, that makes no sense, but I thank God for it.
Please explain to me the error in that logic- God is infinite in worth, an offense to Him requires infinite puniushment.
I just read the most recent stuff… wow.
You (Gene) have a slight problem. Yes, Jesus did not know something's while He was a man, but He was still 100% God. He was the Godman. 100% God and 100% man. He knew everything, but for the sake of our souls, He gave up some of that knowledge for a time, such as the date of His return. But to say that we know more than the apostles did is Heresy. Paul went up to Heaven and talked to Jesus AFTER His resurrection! (2 Corinthians 2: 1-3)
You seem to be arguing that we are smarter than Jesus and Paul… Paul got His message from Jesus when Jesus had all His glory and knowledge returned. Yes, Paul didn't know everything (like E=MC2) but He knew God in a way that none of the rest of mankind (except Jesus, as He was God) have known. Obviously, God is infinite and finite man cannot grasp him, but that does not matter, we know less than Paul did about God, please explain all of Pauls letters to me without saying even once “I am not sure”.
Hi SB,
You say
“Your whole argument falls apart in the fact that the unrighteous will have a resurrection, why would they have one unless they get bodies that are able to burn eternally? (Acts 24:15) Their bodies will be like our resureccted bodies, indestructable. “But only the sons of God are promised a new indestructible body.
1Cor 15
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Hi SB,
Mt 10
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2008,10:18) Nick…..i think you are the one decieved , we all know somethings more then Jesus did at that time because as Jesus Said Knowledge would be increased and greater thing would you do then i. It's you who does not believe the words of Jesus or you would understand his words. And when did i (EVER SAY) i know more then GOD. When are you going to stop misrepresenting what people say or add to what they say, what spirit is that from certainly not of GOD.
Hi GB,
Daniel
Daniel 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.This is not suggesting servants will know more than their master. Their works are his works in them Their mind is his mind. Their Spirit is his Spirit.
No man is greater than his master, even Isaac Newton and you, must rely on his godly wisdom and not your own ideas if you expect his respect.
Nick…….So who is saying we are greater the GOD, But to say a servant can't know more the His master is pure foolishness, many servants knew more then their masters about some things. Jesus Himself was a servant of GOD, did He know everything GOD did, NO, But we are not comparing what GOD Knows, were are comparing what Jesus Knew at the time He was walking on earth and it is plainly stated He did not know everything GOD did, and neither do we, Jesus even knew Knowledge would be greatly increased. Scripture says the servant is not above His master (in Rank) not Knowledge thats what you are saying and scripture does (NOT) say that. IMO
Hi GB,
God's will is done and you may be graciously offered a role in that by grace.
If you are you may still refuse God's urging and not seek more grace.You say that branches of the VINE know more and make him seem ignorant and superstitious?
HmmmQuote (Kupchuk @ Mar. 03 2007,13:50) God wills all mankind to be saved! 1 Tim. 2:4 …our saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come to the realization of the truth.
1 Tim. 4:10 …that we rely on the living God Who is the saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. (Not only believers.)
1 Cor. 15:28 …Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all. (At the consummation God will be All in all, not just some)
Nick…….to this quotation you replied, So its all a hoax about the judgement of GOD , How could you possible come to that conclusion where did He say Judgment is not required for salvation of all, thats you jumping to that conclusion not His words or the quotes. You seem to have a problem taking what people out of context and inferring things they are not saying because they don't meet (YOU) theology. You need to slow down and really conceder what others are saying before jumping off the handle and accusing them of meaning things they are not saying. IMOpeace…………gene
Hi GB,
You promote Isaac Newton but denigrate Jesus Christ and the disciples as ignorant and influenced by superstition. We are a site developed to encourage faith in and dependance on Jesus and the sacred writings but you seem to want to draw followers after men and their teachings.Are you ashamed of Jesus and his teachings?
Nick………> again accusations which are not true when or where did i say Jesus was not who he said He was, where did Jesus say he know everything there is to know. What i said was Jesus and the deciples did not have (ALL) Knowledge, if yuou find that as putting them down then that your problem, but i believe if Jesus were Here right NOw He would agree with what i said. It you not understanding that what Jesus said about KNOWLEDGE being increased Has indeed happened and if it was increased then it was not known then right or how could it be inceasred, you taking that as a put down is your problem not my, i was not and do not put Jesus down or the Apopstles for that matter either , it your rush to accuse and discredit thats the problem here. IMO
Hi GB,
Did Jesus speak the words of God?
If he did why do you not believe him?
Why would you prefer the teachings of Isaac newton?Hi All.
GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).Blessings.
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