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Quote (TimothyVI @ July 21 2008,00:03) DK,
Why do you give the literal quote of a verse like,Quote 8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
And then completely change the phrase “age-during” to ever lasting.
Then you give the definition of everlasting as if that is what scriptures said to begin with.Quote everlasting (aiÎwñniov)- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlastingdestruction (oàleqrov)- from a primary ollumi meaning to destroy, a prolonged form. ruin, destroy, death
So lets put it all together…
“Everlasting” is something without beginning (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), without beginning or end (Genesis 21:33; Isaiah 26:4; 40:28; Hebrews 9:14), and without end (2 Corinthians 5:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 9:12; 13:20; Revelations 14:6).
The use of “everlasting” here shows that God’s judgment is final with no appeal (Hebrews 6:2) and is “unquenchable” (Mark 9:43). This is not remedial but retributive justice. It is not temporary but final judgment. It is of unlimited duration of time–eternal, as God’s eternal power and divine nature are “everlasting” (Romans 1:20; 16:26).
Do you just change the words to fit your doctrine?
Age-during means exactly what it says. During an age or period of time.
Not without beginning and without end as you say.Tim
I changed nothing…check again…Ok Here is a question for all who believe ALL WILL BE SAVED..
If this is a true doctrine..then shouldn't I be able to just live my life however i want? I should be able to to go fornicate, rob, murder and fear not…GOD is gone save me anyway ..right?
Quote (TimothyVI @ July 21 2008,00:03) DK,
Why do you give the literal quote of a verse like,Quote 8in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; 9who shall suffer justice — destruction age-during — from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
And then completely change the phrase “age-during” to ever lasting.
Then you give the definition of everlasting as if that is what scriptures said to begin with.Quote everlasting (aiÎwñniov)- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlastingdestruction (oàleqrov)- from a primary ollumi meaning to destroy, a prolonged form. ruin, destroy, death
So lets put it all together…
“Everlasting” is something without beginning (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), without beginning or end (Genesis 21:33; Isaiah 26:4; 40:28; Hebrews 9:14), and without end (2 Corinthians 5:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:16; 1 Timothy 6:16; Hebrews 9:12; 13:20; Revelations 14:6).
The use of “everlasting” here shows that God’s judgment is final with no appeal (Hebrews 6:2) and is “unquenchable” (Mark 9:43). This is not remedial but retributive justice. It is not temporary but final judgment. It is of unlimited duration of time–eternal, as God’s eternal power and divine nature are “everlasting” (Romans 1:20; 16:26).
Do you just change the words to fit your doctrine?
Age-during means exactly what it says. During an age or period of time.
Not without beginning and without end as you say.Tim
I used “Youngs Literal Translation” but here is another possible literal translation..just for you Tim:1 Thess 1:9…
“Who be punished (future tense) destroyed without end from the face the lord, from the glory of his might”
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 21 2008,01:52) Ok Here is a question for all who believe ALL WILL BE SAVED.. If this is a true doctrine..then shouldn't I be able to just live my life however i want? I should be able to to go fornicate, rob, murder and fear not…GOD is gone save me anyway ..right?
That is a sad question often asked by people who have no personal morals to live and do what is right unless there is a threat of punishment hanging over their head for doing otherwise.Why should we not do as Jesus asked simply to please him instead of out of fear of reprisals if we do not?
But to answer your question directly, Christianity teaches that you can in fact live your life as you please and do all of those things and God will still save you if on your dying bed you repent and ask for forgiveness in the name of Jesus.
Remember the thief on the cross beside Jesus?TIm
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2008,18:25) Hi All OK, here is my two cents worth.
I part with GB on Calvinism in that I believe that man can freely choose to follow the calling or the drawing of God which is given to everyman on this side of the grave.
However, I do believe that God will eventually redeem all of his creation. Because all of creation was created by him and for him. How will he accomplish full reconcilliation is not completely clear and is not given, except there are scriptures that indicate this to be so.
Without going into those scriptures which I am sure most here know, I would like to just mention a couple of scenarios.
1. What purpose would God have in creating billions of souls only to cast the majority into eternal torment?
2. How would it be just for a loving Father to take a man or woman, (many may have never heard the truth), who lived say a 100 years in sin, (though he never asked to be born), and cast him into eternal torment? Even we as men require the punishment be equal to the crime!
3. If Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sin, (which many say is eternal torment, yet the scriptures say the punishment for sin is death), then for it to be a true payment he would have to spend eternity in torment himself.
4. If Jesus died for the “sin” of the world and yet the majority of mankind ends up in eternal torment, then it would seem that his sacrifice was powerless to save all.
5. Jesus said he left the 99 to save the one. Did he fail in saving the one? Scriptures say, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isa 53:6
Therefore if he saved the one that was lost, that is 100%.
6. Scriptures also say, Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
If God is the God of all flesh, and he desires that all be saved, and Jesus died for the sin of all, and nothing is too hard for him, then God would be a failure if he did not save all.
7. Scripture says, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be **any more pain**: for the former things are passed away. Rev 21:4
How could there not be any pain any more if some of your loved ones or friends are in eternal torments?
What purpose would a God who is love, who doesn't even delight in the death of the wicked, what purpose would that God have in a perfect universe a little place called “hell” where the majority of mankind is in eternal torments because they said no to Yeshua?
A True Story
A teenage girl named Mary was a good kid. She had great grades in school. She respected her teachers and her parents. She never stole anything, and she always tried to be honest. She was involved in helping others in her community when she could. She turned away from drugs and tried to encourage others to do the same. She had goals to not have sex before marriage and wanted to someday raise a family.
At 16 she was a model child. One day about a month before her 17th birthday, Mary heard the message of Jesus Christ and that she needed to repent and be baptized and follow Christ. Mary said to herself, “I am just not ready for this Jesus thing” and she rejected the message. Two days later Mary was killed in a car accident. Mary died in her sins.
Another True Story
There was a man named Bob. Bob from his childhood was rebellious to everything his Dad and Mom tried to teach him. He disrespected his teachers and his Mom and Dad. He soon got into trouble with the law. At age 17 he dropped out of school and ended up in prison for shooting a man in the face for calling him a bastard. Bob served time got out of prison at 31 years of age. During his time in prison Bob heard the message of Jesus Christ and rejected it. Bob was a wicked man and hadn't learned anything while in prison. Back on the streets he raped and molested 12 girls and killed 6 of them before he was caught at age 52. Bob went back to prison with no chance of parole.
Bob grew old and got sick with cancer at age 79. A minister was called in and talked to Bob and shared with him that Jesus died for his sins and that if he would repent and be baptized God would save him. Bob cries out to God and repents in weeping and in tears. After witnessing too many in prison Bob died 6 months later.
Traditional Christianity is teaching that Mary will spend eternity in torments, and Bob will spend eternity in bliss.
That my friend would not be considered a just God no matter how you cut it. IMHO.
Some may laugh at this. But many accuse Trinitarians of holding onto the RCC's doctrine of the Trinity, yet they themselves hold onto many doctrines of the RCC themselves.
Death, burial and resurection, eternal damnation, pre-existence, virgin birth, infallibility of the scriptures, Trinity, etc, etc. are all RCC doctrines, but does believing in them make you a part of the whore?
WJ
WJ…….Now that teaching and preaching. Amen to that post.
I see it that way also, Some out one side of there say God is loving and merciful, and the other make him look like a weak monster that can't save His children and is just going to throw them into a lake of fire and watch them scream out into all eternity in pain and anguish.You have represented the Father right in what you said.
Love and peace to you and yours………..gene
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 21 2008,01:52) Ok Here is a question for all who believe ALL WILL BE SAVED.. If this is a true doctrine..then shouldn't I be able to just live my life however i want? I should be able to to go fornicate, rob, murder and fear not…GOD is gone save me anyway ..right?
DK…..do what ever is in your heart if those things you mentioned are in you heart then your doing them any way, but if you are lead by the Spirit of God you are putting those things to death, because God is transforming your mind and giving you a new heart, which is moved by Love. Don't you understand you are created unto good works no longer dead works of the flesh, but works of the Spirit and those fruits are love, joy, long suffering, peace, and faithfulness, and love toward God and ALL men. And love is not about hearting and destroying anything, but forgiving and having Mercy for ALL, GOD IS LOVE.DK…..remember nothing is perfect in fear, because fear has torment, and Love cast out fear so we need to look at our hearts and ask what is the reason were doing what we do is it out of Love or out of fear, it says by works of Law shall no flesh be justified before God, ask yourself why?, because law means (forced Compliance) and was given to cause fear, but while fear can be a deterrent it can never change the heart, “but you brethren have not come to that mountain to fear and Trimble like they did, but have come to that city whose BUILDER AND MAKER IS GOD> we are that HOLY CITY.
Peace to you and yours brother……………gene
DK…..the Satan is your flesh, follow it and you die, follow the spirit and you live and those who are being changed (BY GOD) will follow the spirit. Because it is God who works in them to (BOTH) WILL and do HIS good Pleasure. It's simple no fear mongering needed, Just true Faith working in love.
blessing to you and yours……..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2008,04:29) DK…..the Satan is your flesh, follow it and you die, follow the spirit and you live and those who are being changed (BY GOD) will follow the spirit. Because it is God who works in them to (BOTH) WILL and do HIS good Pleasure. It's simple no fear mongering needed, Just true Faith working in love. blessing to you and yours……..gene
Was Jesus a fear mongerer? He said almost identically what I just said…And does not your statement that, “the satan is your flesh, follow it and die”…contradict your belief of “universal salvation”…
Matthew 25:32…32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
DK…..no because if a person dies following His flesh, he will come up in the resurrection and and be judged , saying a person will die does not mean eternal death, it means die in your sins, which 90% of all humanity has, Do you think A loving God is going to destory 90% of his creation?
Jesus did not teach fear, but Faith in God , respect and love for the Father yes, “it is your Fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom”, “MY JOY I GIVE YOU”, “I have come that you might have life and life more abundantly” , fear has torment and (NOTHING) is perfected (IN FEAR) and the fearful who are the unbelieving shall have there part in the lake of fire.
None of those Israelites who were full of fear were faithful as history showed. No one can be made right in fear. If your motive for serving God is basied on fear,then you need to change it, to love, and love cast (OUT) fear.
peace………..gene
Dk….here is another example of fear, the one who had the one talent went and dug a hole and buried his talent , and when confronted what did he say, “i knew you were an Hard man and reaped where you didn't sow and so i was afraid and buried you talent now here is your talent, and look what happened to him. It was fear the prevented him from using the talent given him. Fear does that in all who are lead by it, it is the opposite of Faith, fear restricts growth.
Fear is what keep Israel from going into the promise land and they all died in the wilderness 20 years and above. It was fear that did it, fear works the opposite of faith.
peace……….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,16:54) 942767……my i say ditto to that. If you are not paying attention the scriptures i have posted your rejecting not me but what GOD Said. and that is also between you and God.
and blessings to you too>
Hi Gene or anyone:Show me the scripture that says that all eventually be saved and I will believe the scripture.
God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2008,04:57) DK…..no because if a person dies following His flesh, he will come up in the resurrection and and be judged , saying a person will die does not mean eternal death, it means die in your sins, which 90% of all humanity has, Do you think A loving God is going to destory 90% of his creation? Jesus did not teach fear, but Faith in God , respect and love for the Father yes, “it is your Fathers good pleasure to give you the kingdom”, “MY JOY I GIVE YOU”, “I have come that you might have life and life more abundantly” , fear has torment and (NOTHING) is perfected (IN FEAR) and the fearful who are the unbelieving shall have there part in the lake of fire.
None of those Israelites who were full of fear were faithful as history showed. No one can be made right in fear. If your motive for serving God is basied on fear,then you need to change it, to love, and love cast (OUT) fear.
peace………..gene
What if a person dies at armageddon..because he followed his fleshQuote (942767 @ July 21 2008,05:43) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,16:54) 942767……my i say ditto to that. If you are not paying attention the scriptures i have posted your rejecting not me but what GOD Said. and that is also between you and God.
and blessings to you too>
Hi Gene or anyone:Show me the scripture that says that all eventually be saved and I will believe the scripture.
God Bless
Hi 94,When Gene has shown some of these scriptures you chose not only to not believe them, but to not acknowlege them at all. If your eyes are blind to them, nothing short of an intervention by God will help you to see.
In due time, in His time.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ July 21 2008,06:09) Quote (942767 @ July 21 2008,05:43) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 20 2008,16:54) 942767……my i say ditto to that. If you are not paying attention the scriptures i have posted your rejecting not me but what GOD Said. and that is also between you and God.
and blessings to you too>
Hi Gene or anyone:Show me the scripture that says that all eventually be saved and I will believe the scripture.
God Bless
Hi 94,When Gene has shown some of these scriptures you chose not only to not believe them, but to not acknowlege them at all. If your eyes are blind to them, nothing short of an intervention by God will help you to see.
In due time, in His time.
Tim
Hi Tim:If you or Gene or anyone else has a scripture which shows that all men will eventually be saved please produce it so that I can see it and acknowledge it.
Thanks and God Bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 21 2008,05:09) Dk….here is another example of fear, the one who had the one talent went and dug a hole and buried his talent , and when confronted what did he say, “i knew you were an Hard man and reaped where you didn't sow and so i was afraid and buried you talent now here is your talent, and look what happened to him. It was fear the prevented him from using the talent given him. Fear does that in all who are lead by it, it is the opposite of Faith, fear restricts growth. Fear is what keep Israel from going into the promise land and they all died in the wilderness 20 years and above. It was fear that did it, fear works the opposite of faith.
peace……….gene
Hi GB,
So despite being 'dragged' by God men still are unable to obey God, not due to fear of God but fear of failure, fear of man, fear of losing control and other compelling sin?Nick…….All who are drawn GREEK(dragged) will serve God and they won't be going around full of fear and trembling like a bowl jello, they will come (BOLDLY) before the throne of GRACE to find help in time of need. But the fear full will bury there talent because of fear. The fearful who are unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.
Love cast (OUT) FEAR , not CAST IN FEAR, so what source are you from NICK?
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