- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 21 2010,14:18) Yes. Now, your turn to answer a question.
Can a star stop over someone's house? Yes or no?
Before you try to spin this into a case of the wise men using the stars for navigation, let me remind you of what the verse actually says.
From the Contemporary English version:
Matthew 2:9 The wise men listened to what the king said and then left. And the star they had seen in the east went on ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.
It is a matter of relativity not actuality. You use terms like this everyday but you don't question those. Of course the Stars didn't stop but the Sun doesn't rise either and I know you say that it does.Celestial navigation, also known as astronavigation, is a position fixing technique that has steadily evolved over several thousand years to help sailors cross featureless oceans without having to rely on estimated calculations, or dead reckoning, to enable them to know their position on the ocean. Celestial navigation uses “sights,” or angular measurements taken between a visible celestial body (the sun, the moon, a planet or a star) and the visible horizon. The angle measured between the sun and the visible horizon is most commonly used. Skilled navigators can additionally use the moon, a planet or one of 57 navigational stars whose coordinates are tabulated in the Nautical Almanac and Air Almanacs.
Celestial navigation is the process whereby angular measurements (sights) taken between celestial bodies in the sky and the visible horizon are used to locate one's position on the globe, on land as well as at sea. At any given instant of time, any celestial body is located directly over only one specific geographic point, or position on the Earth, whose address is described by latitude and longitude. This geographic position is known as the celestial body’s “GP,” and its precise location can be determined by referring to tables in the Nautical or Air Almanac for that exact second of time, for that calendar year.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation
The measured angle between the celestial body and the visible horizon is directly, geometrically related to the distance between the celestial body's GP, and the observers position. After some computations, commonly referred to as “sight reduction,” this measurement is used to plot a line of position (LOP) on a navigational chart or plotting work sheet to record the position of the observer as being somewhere on that line. The LOP is actually a short segment of a very large circle on the earth which surrounds the GP of the observed celestial body. An observer located anywhere on the circumference of this circle on the earth, measuring the angle of the same celestial body above the horizon at that instant of time, would observe that body to be at exactly the same angle above the horizon. That premise is the basis for the most commonly used method of celestial navigation, and is referred to as the “Altitude-Intercept Method.”
There are several other methods of celestial navigation which will also provide position finding using sextant observations, such as the “Noon Sight”, and the more archaic “Lunar Distance” method. Joshua Slocum used the Lunar Distance method during the first ever recorded single-handed circumnavigation of the world. Unlike the Altitude-Intercept Method, the noon sight and lunar distance methods do not require accurate knowledge of time. The altitude-intercept method of celestial navigation requires that the observer know exact Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) at the moment of his observation of the celestial body, to the second.It seems like it was very possible to determine where this position was located unless you dispute science itself
bodhitharta,
Can you highlight the section of what you quoted from Wikipedia that talks about a star moving until it stops – over someone's house?
Let me save you some time.
From Christian Answers:
Quote 1. Some scholars think this “star” was a comet … .
2. Others believe that the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction, or gathering of planets in the night sky. …
3. Finally, an exploding star, or supernova, has been proposed to explain the Christmas Star. …All three explanations for the Star of Bethlehem fall short … .
The conclusion is that the Star of Bethlehem cannot be naturally explained by science! It was a temporary and supernatural light.
In other words, while you have tried to shoehorn celestial navigation into the passage, others have read the very same words and come to completely different conclusions! Why? Because, the plain reading of the passage is so nonsensical that it demands further explanation. If you would like to pretend that this passage is about celestial navigation, it is your religious prerogative. However, you should take not that your explanation did not make the top four offered by a major christian apologetics organization.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 23 2010,03:22) bodhitharta, Can you highlight the section of what you quoted from Wikipedia that talks about a star moving until it stops – over someone's house?
Let me save you some time.
From Christian Answers:
Quote 1. Some scholars think this “star” was a comet … .
2. Others believe that the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction, or gathering of planets in the night sky. …
3. Finally, an exploding star, or supernova, has been proposed to explain the Christmas Star. …All three explanations for the Star of Bethlehem fall short … .
The conclusion is that the Star of Bethlehem cannot be naturally explained by science! It was a temporary and supernatural light.
In other words, while you have tried to shoehorn celestial navigation into the passage, others have read the very same words and come to completely different conclusions! Why? Because, the plain reading of the passage is so nonsensical that it demands further explanation. If you would like to pretend that this passage is about celestial navigation, it is your religious prerogative. However, you should take not that your explanation did not make the top four offered by a major christian apologetics organization.
The wise men were Astrologers/Astronomers they measured and used tools celestial navigation seems like the most suitable option.You may not like my answer but it is nonetheless reasonable and scientific.
On another note to say a star stopped over someones house does not need to have a scientific basis at all anymore than someone who says the bathed in the sunlight or they watched the sunset or the moon is full these are expressions that help us communicate not scientific essays.
Also I wasn't concerned with being justified by any organization I'm just like you I ask “What is True” then I try to find out. My researched answer seems adequate.
Quote On another note to say a star stopped over someones house does not need to have a scientific basis at all anymore than someone who says the bathed in the sunlight or they watched the sunset or the moon is full these are expressions that help us communicate not scientific essays. Can you show me another example in the bible, or elsewhere, where the expression “a star stopping over someone's house” is used figuratively?
Unlike words like “sunset” or “sunrise” which are common expressions, “the star moved until it stopped over my neighbor's house” is not. Unless you can show that this is a common figurative phrase, you are essentially saying that the bible is to be taken figuratively by default. Is that your position?
This is really none of my business at all, but BD, why are you trying to make scientific sense of scriptures in the first place? As if God's power is limited to only doing things that mere mortal man's feeble mind can plot on a chart or something.
God also made the sun move backwards so King Hezekiah could see the shadow moving forward 10 steps instead of backwards – like it usually would – as a sign that He would extend that king's life a little longer.
God also made it be daylight for a day and a half straight during a particular battle.
Why can't God make a simple little star STOP where He wants it to? Why can't He make it shine a beam of light directly on top of one house if He wants to?
Who cares if men can explain it. Does God answer to men?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 23 2010,04:53) Quote On another note to say a star stopped over someones house does not need to have a scientific basis at all anymore than someone who says the bathed in the sunlight or they watched the sunset or the moon is full these are expressions that help us communicate not scientific essays. Can you show me another example in the bible, or elsewhere, where the expression “a star stopping over someone's house” is used figuratively?
Unlike words like “sunset” or “sunrise” which are common expressions, “the star moved until it stopped over my neighbor's house” is not. Unless you can show that this is a common figurative phrase, you are essentially saying that the bible is to be taken figuratively by default. Is that your position?
Are visions figurative or literal? is the book of revelation figurative or literal?You can play this game with me if you want but you will lose.
Being honest is much more powerful and easy.
Is God really a Father? Or is it figurative?
Some things are literal and some things are figurative.
Figures of Speech in the Quran
By Dr Hasanuddin Ahmad
A word or group of words used in any composition to give particular emphasis to an idea or sentiment is termed as figure of speech. If instead of a literal meaning a word borrows a new meaning it is called a figurative use of the word.
The whole realm of figurative languages looms large in any consideration of the Quran as literature. Figurative language in the Quran includes almost all the figures of speech used in any language (Presently only 15 have been discussed). It is hard to find a 'ruku' in the Quran that does not contain figurative language.
Abu Bakr Muhammed-al-Baqillani (d. 403/1013) demonstrated the occurrence in the Quran of the figures of speech used by the Arab poets. He identified not less than 34 different figures of speech in his monumental treatise Ijaz al-Quran.
In sharp contrast to the use of the figures of speech by the pre-Islamic Arab poets, which at times appear to be a poor trick, the Quran employs the same figures of speech in a most magnificent way. It is more important as the Quran is the un-mediated word of God.
The Quran is basically a book of guidance. Even though words used in the Quran are as a rule, taken in their literal meaning, some words have been used in different figures of speech to enable the addressee to fully understand some of the concepts of the Quran.
Thus we find a number of figures of speech, also called tropes, in the Quran. The Quran, for example, has used figurative language to explain certain concepts such as al-jannah, al-naar, al-aakhirah, al-arsh, al-kursi, al-sa'at etc. which are beyond the range of human perception. The concepts behind these terms cannot be fully understood by the human mind, and therefore such concepts have been explained through expressions which the human mind can comprehend.
1. Simile
When one thing is compared to another because of mutual resemblance, it is called a simile.
The Quran has very frequently used this figure of speech to convey its message.
The literal meaning are negated by prefixing the Arabic alphabet 'Kaf'' (meaning similar or like) such as
“Then your hearts hardened and became like rocks, or even harder” (Quran 2:74)
Here the literal meaning of the word 'rocks' is negated by prefixing with the word 'like'
2. Metaphor A metaphor is a figure of speech in which words are used to indicate something different from its literal meaning. It is an implied simile. It does not, like the simile, state that the thing is like another or acts as another, but takes that for granted and proceeds as if the two things were one.
The Quran has used metaphors to convey its message.
The Quran says:
“……it is they who carry the shackles (of their own making) around their necks; and it is they who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.” (Quran 13:5)
Here 'shackles' is “a metaphor of man's willful self abandonment to false values and evil ways, and of the resulting enslavement of the spirit (of Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi)”. [1]
3. Symbolism
In the simplest sense, a symbol is “something that stands for, represents or denotes something else (not by exact resemblance, but by vague suggestion, or by some accidental or conventional relation) especially a material object representing or taken to represent something immaterial or abstract.” [2]
The Quran had the problem of presenting its universal message keeping in view eternal realities, wisdom and mental background and the limitations of the addressee.
The vast vocabulary of the Arabic language was incapable of expressing certain concepts; therefore Allah created the necessary atmosphere for comprehending them through the medium of symbols.
http://www.clearvisionpk.com/Figures_of_Speech_in_the_Quran.htm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2010,10:23) This is really none of my business at all, but BD, why are you trying to make scientific sense of scriptures in the first place? As if God's power is limited to only doing things that mere mortal man's feeble mind can plot on a chart or something. God also made the sun move backwards so King Hezekiah could see the shadow moving forward 10 steps instead of backwards – like it usually would – as a sign that He would extend that king's life a little longer.
God also made it be daylight for a day and a half straight during a particular battle.
Why can't God make a simple little star STOP where He wants it to? Why can't He make it shine a beam of light directly on top of one house if He wants to?
Who cares if men can explain it. Does God answer to men?
peace and love,
mike
While I agree with you Mike, I also know that these effects could occur for a reason that is scientific, remember the word Science only means Knowledge God is Omniscient All Knowing and All knowledgeable.When God does something there is science/knowledge in it. Miracles are Advanced Knowledge or Activity.
I remember when God first allowed me to heal people I really didn't understand how it was even possible but after studying Quantum physics and “action at a distance” I finally understood. I am also a musician who has delved very deeply into how sound operates and works and I know for a fact that you can TUNE something into harmony.
Most critics criticize out of ignorance and some criticize out of knowledge but most don't know.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 23 2010,10:47) I remember when God first allowed me to heal people I really didn't understand how it was even possible but after studying Quantum physics and “action at a distance” I finally understood.
H B,You mean you now THINK you understand how the healing power of God works, right?
You are a smart person B. Surely you know that you can't possibly understand anything about the power and ways God heals others. You can only understand the parts of it that your feeble human brain is equipped to understand. I'm sure there is so much more than that happening on levels that we can't even begin to comprehend.
And I would watch how you phrase “allowed ME TO HEAL”. I understood you to mean that God has healed THROUGH you, but others might not. You don't want to miss out on entering the promised land like Moses did, do you?
Anyway, thanks for your response. I'll stick my nose back into MY business now and stay out of yours.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 23 2010,12:00) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 23 2010,10:47) I remember when God first allowed me to heal people I really didn't understand how it was even possible but after studying Quantum physics and “action at a distance” I finally understood.
H B,You mean you now THINK you understand how the healing power of God works, right?
You are a smart person B. Surely you know that you can't possibly understand anything about the power and ways God heals others. You can only understand the parts of it that your feeble human brain is equipped to understand. I'm sure there is so much more than that happening on levels that we can't even begin to comprehend.
And I would watch how you phrase “allowed ME TO HEAL”. I understood you to mean that God has healed THROUGH you, but others might not. You don't want to miss out on entering the promised land like Moses did, do you?
Anyway, thanks for your response. I'll stick my nose back into MY business now and stay out of yours.
peace and love,
mike
No, I appreciate what you said 100% I meant it in this way:Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:21-23That was the kind of phrasing I met to use, This is why I say ALLOWED meaning it this way:
And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #49)Now I am not comparing myself to Jesus but Jesus did say that Faith would allow us to be permitted to do things thathe did.
You are right I don't FULLY understand I just understand why it is possible
.
quran = Babylon
quran is a book of confusion
For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2010,16:39) . quran = Babylon
quran is a book of confusion
For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.
ED,Please stop arguing the Bible. You are arguing against your own beliefs and it is embarrasing to any believer
Hi Everyone,
BD keeps trying to associate with us his satanic god allah??? WHAT A LIE! What a Lie!!
The quran has 114 chapters called suras and is the 'book of fraud'!
'quran book' =114
'evil curse' =114
'islam false' =114
'Lucifer liar' =114
'allah is devil' =114
'book of fraud' =114
'a moongod bible'=114For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 23 2010,05:30) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 23 2010,04:53) Quote On another note to say a star stopped over someones house does not need to have a scientific basis at all anymore than someone who says the bathed in the sunlight or they watched the sunset or the moon is full these are expressions that help us communicate not scientific essays. Can you show me another example in the bible, or elsewhere, where the expression “a star stopping over someone's house” is used figuratively?
Unlike words like “sunset” or “sunrise” which are common expressions, “the star moved until it stopped over my neighbor's house” is not. Unless you can show that this is a common figurative phrase, you are essentially saying that the bible is to be taken figuratively by default. Is that your position?
Are visions figurative or literal? is the book of revelation figurative or literal?You can play this game with me if you want but you will lose.
Being honest is much more powerful and easy.
Is God really a Father? Or is it figurative?
Some things are literal and some things are figurative.
Well, I must be a little slow today, so maybe you can help me out. What parts of the following passage are figurative? (Please list the phrases and their correct interpretation in order as you find them.)Matthew 2:1-12: When Jesus was born in the village of Bethlehem in Judea, Herod was king. During this time some wise men from the east came to Jerusalem and said, “Where is the child born to be king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him. “When King Herod heard about this, he was worried, and so was everyone else in Jerusalem. Herod brought together the chief priests and the teachers of the Law of Moses and asked them, “Where will the Messiah be born?”
They told him, “He will be born in Bethlehem, just as the prophet wrote,
'Bethlehem in the land
of Judea,
you are very important
among the towns of Judea.
From your town
will come a leader,
who will be like a shepherd
for my people Israel.' “
Herod secretly called in the wise men and asked them when they had first seen the star. He told them, “Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, let me know. I want to go and worship him too.”
The wise men listened to what the king said and then left. And the star they had seen in the east went on ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. They were thrilled and excited to see the star.
When the men went into the house and saw the child with Mary, his mother, they knelt down and worshiped him. They took out their gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh and gave them to him. Later they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod, and they went back home by another road.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 24 2010,02:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 23 2010,05:30) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 23 2010,04:53) Quote On another note to say a star stopped over someones house does not need to have a scientific basis at all anymore than someone who says the bathed in the sunlight or they watched the sunset or the moon is full these are expressions that help us communicate not scientific essays. Can you show me another example in the bible, or elsewhere, where the expression “a star stopping over someone's house” is used figuratively?
Unlike words like “sunset” or “sunrise” which are common expressions, “the star moved until it stopped over my neighbor's house” is not. Unless you can show that this is a common figurative phrase, you are essentially saying that the bible is to be taken figuratively by default. Is that your position?
Are visions figurative or literal? is the book of revelation figurative or literal?You can play this game with me if you want but you will lose.
Being honest is much more powerful and easy.
Is God really a Father? Or is it figurative?
Some things are literal and some things are figurative.
Well, I must be a little slow today, so maybe you can help me out. What parts of the following passage are figurative? (Please list the phrases and their correct interpretation in order as you find them.)Matthew 2:1-12: When Jesus was born in the village of Bethlehem in Judea, Herod was king. During this time some wise men from the east came to Jerusalem and said, “Where is the child born to be king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him. “When King Herod heard about this, he was worried, and so was everyone else in Jerusalem. Herod brought together the chief priests and the teachers of the Law of Moses and asked them, “Where will the Messiah be born?”
They told him, “He will be born in Bethlehem, just as the prophet wrote,
'Bethlehem in the land
of Judea,
you are very important
among the towns of Judea.
From your town
will come a leader,
who will be like a shepherd
for my people Israel.' “
Herod secretly called in the wise men and asked them when they had first seen the star. He told them, “Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, let me know. I want to go and worship him too.”
The wise men listened to what the king said and then left. And the star they had seen in the east went on ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. They were thrilled and excited to see the star.
When the men went into the house and saw the child with Mary, his mother, they knelt down and worshiped him. They took out their gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh and gave them to him. Later they were warned in a dream not to return to Herod, and they went back home by another road.
The problem with this dialogue in particular is that it doesn't interest me. I really don't care how they came upon knowing where Jesus was because it is not the point.Are you simply arguing that the Bible is not written in a strict literal fashion well your right?
Is your point that you think that the writer needs to be a scholar or scientist? I don't see why.
The story is not DICTATED by God so why would it have to be infallible in any area. Let's just assume your right and say “that's silly stars don't stop over houses” okay, so now what? Would that mean that they didn't see a star or didn't find Jesus? No. it would just mean they interpreted what they saw a star stopping over someones house.
Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 23 2010,18:32) Hi Everyone, BD keeps trying to associate with us his satanic god allah??? WHAT A LIE! What a Lie!!
The quran has 114 chapters called suras and is the 'book of fraud'!
'quran book' =114
'evil curse' =114
'islam false' =114
'Lucifer liar' =114
'allah is devil' =114
'book of fraud' =114
'a moongod bible'=114For the reader's sake:
I(Ed J) no longer Post directly to BD, nor answer his postulating questions,
because BD continues to make outrageous personal attacks
which go ignored by the owner of this site.
Surah 514 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
Not who “called” themselves, who CALL themselves.
Here is the entire Surah 5
1 O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.
2 O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment.
3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
4 They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah. eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah. for Allah is swift in taking account.
5 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
6 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
7 And call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, and His covenant, which He ratified with you, when ye said: “We hear and we obey”: And fear Allah, for Allah knoweth well the secrets of your hearts.
8 O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.
9 To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward.
10 Those who reject faith and deny our signs will be companions of Hell-fire.
11 O ye who believe! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but ((Allah)) held back their hands from you: so fear Allah. And on Allah let believers put (all) their trust.
12 Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: “I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude.”
13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.
15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-
16 Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.
17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary.
Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.”
18 (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are sons of Allah, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)”
19 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say: “There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)”: But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
20 Remember Moses said to his people: “O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.
21 “O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.”
22 They said: “O Moses! In this land are a people of exceeding strength: Never shall we enter it until they leave it: if (once) they leave, then shall we enter.”
23 (But) among (their) Allah.fearing men were two on whom Allah had bestowed His grace: They said: “Assault them at the (proper) Gate: when once ye are in, victory will be yours; But on Allah put your trust if ye have faith.”
24 They said: “O Moses! while they remain there, never shall we be able to enter, to the end of time. Go thou, and thy Lord, and fight ye two, while we sit here (and watch).”
25 He said: “O my Lord! I have power only over myself and my brother: so separate us from this rebellious people!”
26 Allah said: “Therefore will the land be out of their reach for forty years: In distraction will they wander through the land: But sorrow thou not over these rebellious people.
27 Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: “Be sure I will slay thee.” “Surely,” said the former, “(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.
28 “If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.
29 “For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong.”
30 The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
31 Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. “Woe is me!” said he; “Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?” then he became full of regrets-
32 On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
34 Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
35 O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.
36 As to those who reject Faith,- if they had everything on earth, and twice repeated, to give as ransom for the penalty of the Day of Judgment, it would never be accepted of them, theirs would be a grievous penalty.
37 Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures.
38 As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
39 But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
40 Knowest thou not that to Allah (alone) belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? He punisheth whom He pleaseth, and He forgiveth whom He pleaseth: and Allah hath power over all things.
41 O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, “If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!” If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such – it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.
42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.
43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
45 We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among y
ou have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
49 And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah.s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.
50 Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah.
51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
52 Those in whose hearts is a disease – thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: “We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster.” Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts.
53 And those who believe will say: “Are these the men who swore their strongest oaths by Allah, that they were with you?” All that they do will be in vain, and they will fall into (nothing but) ruin.
54 O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.
55 Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
56 As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph.
57 O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed).
58 When ye proclaim your call to prayer they take it (but) as mockery and sport; that is because they are a people without understanding.
59 Say: “O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?”
60 Say: “Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah. those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!”
61 When they come to thee, they say: “We believe”: but in fact they enter with a mind against Faith, and they go out with the same but Allah knoweth fully all that they hide.
62 Many of them dost thou see, racing each other in sin and rancour, and their eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed are the things that they do.
63 Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.
64 The Jews say: “(Allah)'s hand is tied up.” Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
65 If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.
66 If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
67 O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
68 Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.” It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
69 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
70 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not – some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.
71 They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.
72 They do blaspheme who say: “(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
74 Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
75 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
76 Say: “Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things.”
77 Say: “O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
78 Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.
79 Nor did they (usually) forbid one another the iniquities which they committed: evil indeed were the deeds which they did.
80 Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah.s wrat
h is on them, and in torment will they abide.
81 If only they had believed in Allah, in the Messenger, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.
82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, “We are Christians”: because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: “Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.
84 “What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?”
85 And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath,- their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.
86 But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs,- they shall be companions of Hell-fire.
87 O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: for Allah loveth not those given to excess.
88 Eat of the things which Allah hath provided for you, lawful and good; but fear Allah, in Whom ye believe.
89 Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.
90 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.
91 Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain?
92 Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger.s duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.
93 On those who believe and do deeds of righteousness there is no blame for what they ate (in the past), when they guard themselves from evil, and believe, and do deeds of righteousness,- (or) again, guard themselves from evil and believe,- (or) again, guard themselves from evil and do good. For Allah loveth those who do good.
94 O ye who believe! Allah doth but make a trial of you in a little matter of game well within reach of your hands and your lances, that He may test who feareth him unseen: any who transgress thereafter, will have a grievous penalty.
95 O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.
96 Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food,- for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game;- as long as ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. And fear Allah, to Whom ye shall be gathered back.
97 Allah made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.
98 Know ye that Allah is strict in punishment and that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
99 The Messenger.s duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.
100 Say: “Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear Allah, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper.”
101 O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.
102 Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
103 It was not Allah who instituted (superstitions like those of) a slit-ear she- camel, or a she-camel let loose for free pasture, or idol sacrifices for twin-births in animals, or stallion-camels freed from work: It is blasphemers who invent a lie against Allah. but most of them lack wisdom.
104 When it is said to them: “Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the Messenger.: They say: “Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following.” what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?
105 O ye who believe! Guard your own souls: If ye follow (right) guidance, no hurt can come to you from those who stray. the goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of all that ye do.
106 O ye who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take) witnesses among yourselves when making bequests,- two just men of your own (brotherhood) or others from outside if ye are journeying through the earth, and the chance of death befalls you (thus). If ye doubt (their truth), detain them both after prayer, and let them both swear by Allah. “We wish not in this for any worldly gain, even though the (beneficiary) be our near relation: we shall hide not the evidence before Allah. if we do, then behold! the sin be upon us!”
107 But if it gets known that these two were guilty of the sin (of perjury), let two others stand forth in their places,- nearest in kin from among those who claim a lawful right: let them swear by Allah. “We affirm that our witness is truer than that of those two, and that we have not trespassed (beyond the truth): if we did, behold! the wrong be upon us!”
108 That is most suitable: that they may give the evidence in its true nature and shape, or else they would fear that other oaths would be taken after their oaths. But fear Allah, and listen (to His counsel): for Allah guideth not a rebellious people:
109 One day will Allah gather the apostles together, and ask: “What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?” They will say: “We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden.”
110 Then will Allah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'
111 “And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger. they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that
we bow to Allah as Muslims'”.
112 Behold! the disciples, said: “O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?” Said Jesus: “Fear Allah, if ye have faith.”
113 They said: “We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.”
114 Said Jesus the son of Mary: “O Allah our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us – for the first and the last of us – a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs).”
115 Allah said: “I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples.”
116 And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
117 “Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
118 “If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise.”
119 Allah will say: “This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah. That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).
120 To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 24 2010,00:42)
The problem with this dialogue in particular is that it doesn't interest me. I really don't care how they came upon knowing where Jesus was because it is not the point.Are you simply arguing that the Bible is not written in a strict literal fashion well your right?
Is your point that you think that the writer needs to be a scholar or scientist? I don't see why.
The story is not DICTATED by God so why would it have to be infallible in any area. Let's just assume your right and say “that's silly stars don't stop over houses” okay, so now what? Would that mean that they didn't see a star or didn't find Jesus? No. it would just mean they interpreted what they saw a star stopping over someones house.
If you go back a whole three pages, you will find the context for my original statement. T8 and ed j were trying to insinuate that the bible is a source of superior knowledge concerning science. I was simply pointing out that the bible is exactly as you would expect it to be: a reflection of the scientific thinking at the time when it was written.Thanks for finally coming around to my point of view. Though for someone who is “uninterested” in the topic, you sure took a lot of time, and made a lot of protests, before getting there.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 24 2010,08:22) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 24 2010,00:42)
The problem with this dialogue in particular is that it doesn't interest me. I really don't care how they came upon knowing where Jesus was because it is not the point.Are you simply arguing that the Bible is not written in a strict literal fashion well your right?
Is your point that you think that the writer needs to be a scholar or scientist? I don't see why.
The story is not DICTATED by God so why would it have to be infallible in any area. Let's just assume your right and say “that's silly stars don't stop over houses” okay, so now what? Would that mean that they didn't see a star or didn't find Jesus? No. it would just mean they interpreted what they saw a star stopping over someones house.
If you go back a whole three pages, you will find the context for my original statement. T8 and ed j were trying to insinuate that the bible is a source of superior knowledge concerning science. I was simply pointing out that the bible is exactly as you would expect it to be: a reflection of the scientific thinking at the time when it was written.Thanks for finally coming around to my point of view. Though for someone who is “uninterested” in the topic, you sure took a lot of time, and made a lot of protests, before getting there.
No, I didn't agree with you at all, I said if I did agree it would still show you had no point worth noting. I did show you about celestial navigation but it was you that protested.I just was explaining to you that your pettiness was not a substitute for knowledge but perhaps the Fairies you believe in may be petty.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
