Trinity &#8211; Is 1:18&#8217;s Proof Text #4

https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htm

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2009,04:35)

Hi t8

If I were you I would concede also, especially in light of all the evidence that claims Jesus is God!

Blessings WJ

Ha ha. That is priceless, especially after the in depth examination of scripture that has gone on here for the last number of years on this subject. I do feel sorry for you though. Just as Saul's zeal was opposing God and the one whom he has sent, you are also opposing him by preaching a false doctrine that has caused all manor of division and even death.

But then it is no surprise because if the idea in following verse is possible, then your comments are certainly within the realm of possibility even after been given hundreds of scriptures that break the truth, when God is thought of as a trinity.

John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Just shows how people can be deluded into thinking they are doing the one true God a service when in fact they are opposing him.

And here are the 100 scriptures that break, when God is thought of as a trinity. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

No matter how zealous you are, or how many times you interpret Thomas's statement toward your itching ears, you cannot deny that these hundred plus many more scriptures break when you replace the word “God” for “Trinity”.

That alone should make you question. But zeal focussed on the wrong thing, can be very unreasonable. We see exactly the same thing in other religions too. Men who blow themselves up and others are very zealous. Problem is they too are opposing the ways of God.

God is love and he is truth. These very attributes are personified in God's visible image, his son.

The truth of God is very different to the traditions of men. I pray and hope that I choose the former and not the latter.

June 12, 2009 at 4:43 am#133290

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2009,21:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 12 2009,07:42)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2009,15:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2009,18:15)

No Mandy, it doesnt swing either way. No one has been able to disprove the GSR for 200 years.

Hey bro,

While I don't follow their teachings exclusively, the truthortradition.com folks have an excellent rebuttle to the GSR. I'm sure if you were interested you could check out their site and what they have to offer. I've read other accounts as well that have turned the GSR on it's head. As I said, it simply matters who you are listening to. Of course the proponents for the rule will say it's never been disproved, while other scholars would argue that they indeed have disproved it. Go figure.

Just a quick Google of GSR is enlightening as to whether or not one should trust it exclusively. But of course I'm going to say that.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

But that is not true because they have only claimed that it is disproved without giving a scriptural example that proves what they say.

Blessings WJ

Hi,

Are you talking about the truthortradition folks? Because they give quite a few examples…have you been to their site?

Just quickly checking in,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

I have been to the sight, but the link you gave does not bring me to a debate.

No, I havent seen their examples, so maybe you can give me one of their examples just tell me what scritpure they are saying proves the GSR wrong.

Blessings Keith

June 12, 2009 at 4:47 am#133291

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 12 2009,00:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2009,04:35)

Hi t8

If I were you I would concede also, especially in light of all the evidence that claims Jesus is God!

Blessings WJ

Ha ha. That is priceless, especially after the in depth examination of scripture that has gone on here for the last number of years on this subject.

John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Just shows haow people can be deluded into thinking they are doing the one true God a service when in fact they are opposing him.

Hi t8

Good points! Fron this side the view looks exactly the same!

June 12, 2009 at 4:50 am#133292

Participant

Thanks WJ.

People can be very zealous and yet that zeal can be against God.

That is why I am careful not to preach that which comes from man. I choose to preach scripture, that way I cannot be faulted. If I have fault it is when I depart from what is written and what God has and is saying.

In light of this, it is good to keep away from the traditions of men.

June 12, 2009 at 6:08 am#133296

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 12 2009,00:50)

Thanks WJ.

People can be very zealous and yet that zeal can be against God.

In light of this, it is good to keep away from the traditions of men.

Hi t8

But what if the traditions are sound?

What if a man is not zealous enough?

What if the scriptures for instance say Jesus is God and men reject that because of their own bias or tradition?

Could it be that when Jesus comes and they do not have that confession but are rather ashamed to make that confession that he will say I never knew you?

Would Jesus cast out a man who worships him and gives him the very same honour he gives the Father?

What if that person knows in his heart of hearts that the Jesus he serves is bigger than life, in fact he knows that he holds the “entire universe” together by the power of his word? Is a being like that not God to mere flesh?

What if that person can find no difference in the nature of the Father, Jesus and the Spirit, but in fact sees Jesus who is in very nature God as also being the visible image of God, God manifesting himself to him?

Would Jesus cast him out? Is there any limit to the praise and honour that we should give Jesus?

The scriptures call Jesus “God”, “Lord and God”, “Great God and Saviour”, “Only Master and Lord”, “Mighty God”, “God with us”, and “Alpha and Omega”!

So that is my confession and how free I am to not put any limits on Jesus my Lord and My God who is one with the Father and the Spirit, both in nature and in Power and Authority and Glory and Wisdom and Truth and Blessing and Honour forever and ever, Amen!

Blessings WJ

June 12, 2009 at 6:43 am#133297

Participant

WJ, even the truth will not convince you and it is futile to try and make you see. Admittedly debating with you has served a purpose which is to show the fault in the Trinity doctrine as you have questioned everything and taken just about every advantage possible to support your slant.

But now you are just going in circles and I am sure that you are probably quite dizzy in the process.

Scripture doesn't back up your view and all you have are few examples taken out of context compared with hundreds of verses and the context of New Testament itself.

I and some others here preach that God sent his son into the world that the world might be saved through him. The messiah existed in the form of God and emptied himself and took on human nature, died for our sins and was resurrected to be at God's right hand side with the glory he had before the world begun and where he intercedes for us.

Your message is that God came in he flesh, God in the flesh died and rose again and he was resurrected back to the Godhead which is a substance that contains 3 persons.

In support of your gospel, you take some verses here and there and out of context.

In support of the view I espouse, you could take any verse with the word “God” in it (and without) and there is no contradiction. I challenge you to show what I teach as I have written here as contradicting any scripture or being false. You will not be able to because what I am saying is the very essence of New testament revelation.

Yet I could show easily that God didn't die and that the one true God is the Father and not some substance that contains 3 persons.

June 12, 2009 at 7:00 am#133298

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 12 2009,02:43)

But now you are just going in circles and I am sure that you are probably quite dizzy in the process.

Scripture doesn't back up your view and all you have are few examples taken out of context compared with hundreds of verses and the context of New Testament itself.

Your message is that God came in he flesh, God in the flesh died and rose again and he was resurrected back to the Godhead which is a substance that contains 3 persons.

In support of your gospel, you take some verses here and there and out of context.

Yet I could show easily that God didn't die and that the one true God is the Father and not some substance that contains 3 persons.

Hi t8

Jesus was also “Spirit” t8 and not just flesh.

He was/is the Word God that came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

The Spirit of Jesus “God the Word” did not die, so there is no contradiction in the Trinitarian view.

The body without the Spirit is dead. The same day Jesus body gave out and died he went to Paradise/hades for three days and three nights.

Just thought I would clarify that.

Nothing in my confession is unscriptural t8, and I challenge you to show me where it is.

Blessings WJ

June 12, 2009 at 6:20 pm#133318

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 12 2009,15:15)

Quote (thethinker @ June 12 2009,11:52)

Marty said:

Quote

How can he be YHWH, if YHWH is dwelling in him?

Because YHWH is a plural unity. Now let me ask you a question. How can all things be created for YHWH and also be created for Christ?

Proverbs 16:4: “YHWH has made all things FOR Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”

Colossians 1:16: “All things were created by Him and FOR Him” (Christ).

thinker

Hi thethinker:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And the answer to your question is that Jesus is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him, and God made every thing for himself in that it is His to give to whomever he will.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,
It says that all things were made BY Him as well as FOR Him. Not a very good explanation on your part. Please try again.

thinker

June 12, 2009 at 6:38 pm#133319

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 12 2009,18:43)

But now you are just going in circles and I am sure that you are probably quite dizzy in the process.

Scripture doesn't back up your view and all you have are few examples taken out of context compared with hundreds of verses and the context of New Testament itself.

Your message is that God came in he flesh, God in the flesh died and rose again and he was resurrected back to the Godhead which is a substance that contains 3 persons.

In support of your gospel, you take some verses here and there and out of context.

Yet I could show easily that God didn't die and that the one true God is the Father and not some substance that contains 3 persons.

t8,
First, that part of your statement I highlighted in bold contradicts everything you said before and after. Second, Trinitarians also preach that God sent His Son into the world. So please stop boasting that this is distinctive to you guys. Furthermore, we preach it to the world at large and not just on some isolationist discussion board. Trinitarians hold to the Jewish concept of the denomination “Son” as it referred to the Messiah. To the Jew the Son was EQUAL with God (John 5:18). You guys concoct some other definition that is foreign to Jewish thought and to the Bible.

Third, Christ went down to hades alive. So you do not need to “show” us that God didn't die.

thinker

June 12, 2009 at 6:41 pm#133320

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 12 2009,16:43)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2009,21:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 12 2009,07:42)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2009,15:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 11 2009,18:15)

No Mandy, it doesnt swing either way. No one has been able to disprove the GSR for 200 years.

Hey bro,

Just a quick Google of GSR is enlightening as to whether or not one should trust it exclusively. But of course I'm going to say that.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

But that is not true because they have only claimed that it is disproved without giving a scriptural example that proves what they say.

Blessings WJ

Hi,

Are you talking about the truthortradition folks? Because they give quite a few examples…have you been to their site?

Just quickly checking in,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

I have been to the sight, but the link you gave does not bring me to a debate.

No, I havent seen their examples, so maybe you can give me one of their examples just tell me what scritpure they are saying proves the GSR wrong.

Blessings Keith

Okay, I'll try to find that stuff later tonight. It's pretty interesting. Although you probably won't agree with them, it's just another way to look at things (like we need more possible theories….). :;):

Have a good one,
Mandy

June 12, 2009 at 10:28 pm#133329

Cindy

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 12 2009,11:44)

Mandy said:

Quote

GSR has had numerous hits to it, some have been quite compelling. It just depends on where your getting your information on it (it will swing either way, for it or against it).

Mandy,
If it will swing either way then please give examples. Furthermore, if the GSr is incorrect then the names “God” and “Savior” are to be distinguished and Titus 2:13 denies that God is Savior at the same time it denies that Jesus is God.

thinker

Why is it so hard for you to understand that God is only a tittle. Both the Father and Jesus have other names. Jehovah and Yeshua. And by the own words of Jesus who said:” My Father is greater then I.” If He said it then that means always, not only when He is walking this earth.
There is no trinity, no where in the Bible. That is a man-made doctrine. Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first that came up with it. later in His life, He retreaded it.

Deut. 4:35 ” Unto Thee it was shewed, that thou mightes know that the LORD He is God, there is none else beside Him.
Notice that LORD is all capital letters. That is always speaking of the Father.

Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel, the LORD our God in one LORD.”

1 Corinth. 8 : 4 ” And that there is no other God but one.

And of course

Ephesians 4:6 ….. the Father is above alll.

Is that enough Scriptures to show that there is only one God and Father of all?

Peace and Love Irene

June 12, 2009 at 10:47 pm#133332

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Cindy @ June 13 2009,10:28)

And by the own words of Jesus who said:” My Father is greater then I.” If He said it then that means always, not only when He is walking this earth.

Very good point, Irene!

June 12, 2009 at 11:02 pm#133334

Cindy

Participant

Hi Mandy and thank you. I have been gone, have you noticed? I hurt myself on the chair and my Leg is still black and blue. It hurt to walk on it, so I have not been on the Computer at all. Love Irene

June 12, 2009 at 11:03 pm#133335

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 13 2009,06:38)

t8,
First, that part of your statement I highlighted in bold contradicts everything you said before and after.

I can show you scripture that says the same thing.

Your problem is with scripture, not me.

I am merely repeating scripture.

June 12, 2009 at 11:10 pm#133336

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ June 13 2009,06:38)

Second, Trinitarians also preach that God sent His Son into the world. So please stop boasting that this is distinctive to you guys. Furthermore, we preach it to the world at large and not just on some isolationist discussion board. Trinitarians hold to the Jewish concept of the denomination “Son” as it referred to the Messiah. To the Jew the Son was EQUAL with God (John 5:18). You guys concoct some other definition that is foreign to Jewish thought and to the Bible.

Ah but Trintarians ALSO say that Jesus is God. Therefore they agree that God sent his son in word, but the spin that God came in the flesh means that in deed they agree that God came in the flesh. Yet we are told that the Word became flesh.

God cannot die and God is not a man and never will be Thinker. Has this thought crossed your mind?

So in word you agree, but in deed you disagree because your idea of the son is God and the son is not the one true God, he is the image of God.

I will let the son speak for himself if you are willing to listen.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

Is God your father, or a substance containing 3 personailties instead?

June 12, 2009 at 11:11 pm#133337

Participant

Irene said:

Quote

Why is it so hard for you to understand that God is only a tittle.

The word “title” as defined by Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary,

Quote

2. An appelation significant of office, rank, etc,; esp.., a designation of nobility

Tell me how Jesus' being God by “title” disproves trinitarianism.

Irene said:

Quote

And by the own words of Jesus who said:” My Father is greater then I.”

AFTER His exaltation He said that he has ALL authority in heaven and in earth. Therefore, what He said before His exaltation about the Father being greater than Him does NOT apply now.

thinker

June 12, 2009 at 11:25 pm#133339

Participant

t8 said:

Quote

John 1:1 literally reads thus,

Quote

And God was the Word

Verse 14 says,

Quote

And the Word became flesh

Permise 1: God was the Word
Premise 2: The Word became flesh
Conclusion: Therefore, God became flesh

The term “son” in reference to Jesus referred only to His office as the mediator of the covenant of redemption. Jesus officially became the Son of God at His exaltation. Please note that God also became His Father at that time. It was in reference to Christ's exaltation God said, “I will be a Father to him. So God became the Father at the same point in time that Christ became the Son. Therefore, God did not pre-exist Jesus as “Father”.

thinker

June 13, 2009 at 1:37 am#133347