Trinity &#8211; Is 1:18&#039;s Proof Text #2

Blocked

Quote (Cult Buster @ May 31 2007,18:53)

Some of you folk need to think seriously before you continue to blaspheme the name of Christ Jehovah.

:laugh: This was way before my time on HN, but that is absolutely hilarious! :laugh:

Anyway David, I found this comment while looking through the past pages of this thread and seeing all the different things they discussed. I see your point, and the rules do say to stick to the topic, but you need to lighten up. You have been acting like a baby lately, IMO. You started a thread to display trinity proofs that are easily refuted, and then complained when we started listing them.

How is John 1:1 NOT a trinity proof that is easily refuted?

Almost any scriptural discussion is going to involve OTHER supporting scriptures. And once one person brings in the other scripture to support their understanding of the topical scripture, the other person is off and running with their take on that supporting scripture, and so posts ANOTHER scripture they think supports THEIR understanding of the first supporting scripture. And so on and so on.

Example: The one pierced was our savior, so he MUST be God, because apart from God, there is no savior.

Bam! Now we're all off and running about how many saviors there are – WITHIN the topic of Zechariah 12:10.

Judging from a comment he made on another thread, t8 apparently has a supply of “chill pills”. Perhaps you could score a couple of them from him?

peace and love to you,
mike

June 24, 2011 at 3:54 am#249683

Participant

Mike or David

why is it says THEY and not HE because it was only one man who pierce Christ, Right?

Pierre

June 24, 2011 at 9:37 pm#249767

Participant

David

You are right. It has gotten off topic so I created a new thread and Moved it here…

June 24, 2011 at 9:40 pm#249768

Participant

Moved Here

June 25, 2011 at 3:40 am#249791

david

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2011,14:54)

Mike or David

why is it says THEY and not HE because it was only one man who pierce Christ, Right?

Pierre

Hi pierre,
I really don't quite understand what you are trying to ask.

Could you explain.

June 25, 2011 at 3:57 pm#249818

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,15:37)

David

You are right. It has gotten off topic so I created a new thread and Moved it here…

If David was right, then why didn't you take the rest of his advice and find a thread that already exists on saviors instead of starting yet another one?

June 25, 2011 at 5:19 pm#249827

Participant

Quote (david @ June 25 2011,21:40)

Quote (terraricca @ June 24 2011,14:54)

Mike or David

why is it says THEY and not HE because it was only one man who pierce Christ, Right?

Pierre

Hi pierre,
I really don't quite understand what you are trying to ask.

Could you explain.

David

Za;12;10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn son. LXX

Zec 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.NIV1984

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.KJV

If you look in the LXX it does not say ; the one they have pierced; ??

and where it says it it uses the plural ;THEY; and not the single ;HE: because there is only one soldier who pierce Christ on the stake/cross/tree.

so my question is why ;THEY ?

Pierre

June 25, 2011 at 5:26 pm#249831

Blocked

Hi Pierre,

The “THEY” refers to those who looked upon Jesus, not to the “HIM” who actually did the piercing.

June 25, 2011 at 5:40 pm#249834

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,11:26)

Hi Pierre,

The “THEY” refers to those who looked upon Jesus, not to the “HIM” who actually did the piercing.

Mike

if that is so then the ME is not Christ but God,Christ was the prophet of God and the anointed one and by looking upon him ,dead, they have looked at God not be able to intervene on his behalf ,and so mocked God ,

this is how i see it and understand it ,

Pierre

June 25, 2011 at 6:06 pm#249837

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2011,10:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,15:37)

David

You are right. It has gotten off topic so I created a new thread and Moved it here…

If David was right, then why didn't you take the rest of his advice and find a thread that already exists on saviors instead of starting yet another one?

Mike

I searched and didn't find one that specifically dealt with Titus 2:13, 14.

June 25, 2011 at 11:26 pm#249849

david

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2011,04:40)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,11:26)

Hi Pierre,

The “THEY” refers to those who looked upon Jesus, not to the “HIM” who actually did the piercing.

Mike

this is how i see it and understand it ,

Pierre

Right, if the LXX is correct, then the “me” would be God and the “him” would be Christ. And the LXX of course doesn't say that the “me” was pierced, but rather mocked.

The LXX also points to the conclusion that it is ridiculous to assert that Zech 12:10 is any sort of good proof for the trinity.

June 25, 2011 at 11:31 pm#249850

Participant

Quote (david @ June 26 2011,17:26)

Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2011,04:40)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,11:26)

Hi Pierre,

The “THEY” refers to those who looked upon Jesus, not to the “HIM” who actually did the piercing.

Mike

this is how i see it and understand it ,

Pierre

Right, if the LXX is correct, then the “me” would be God and the “him” would be Christ. And the LXX of course doesn't say that the “me” was pierced, but rather mocked.

The LXX also points to the conclusion that it is ridiculous to assert that Zech 12:10 is any sort of good proof for the trinity.

David

anyone that believe in the trinity as a ill faith and does not know God or the one he as send,

it is not supported in scriptures anywhere only in the mind of those who are miss guided by there own corruption.

Pierre

June 26, 2011 at 12:15 am#249862

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2011,12:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 25 2011,10:57)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,15:37)

David

You are right. It has gotten off topic so I created a new thread and Moved it here…

If David was right, then why didn't you take the rest of his advice and find a thread that already exists on saviors instead of starting yet another one?

Mike

I searched and didn't find one that specifically dealt with Titus 2:13, 14.

How about the one I started a while ago? I thought my OP was rather good. And judging from the responses, others did too.

It is found here.

June 26, 2011 at 12:20 am#249864

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2011,11:40)

Mike

if that is so then the ME is not Christ but God

Hi Pierre,

I think that's the point of this discussion. Some mss have the word “ME” while others have “look upon HIM they have pierced”.

The trick is to figure out which is the correct translation, “ME” or “HIM”.

It is only a problem for those who think mortal man could have pierced God Almighty in any way.

June 26, 2011 at 12:57 am#249872

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,18:20)

Quote (terraricca @ June 25 2011,11:40)

Mike

if that is so then the ME is not Christ but God

Hi Pierre,

I think that's the point of this discussion. Some mss have the word “ME” while others have “look upon HIM they have pierced”.

The trick is to figure out which is the correct translation, “ME” or “HIM”.

It is only a problem for those who think mortal man could have pierced God Almighty in any way.

Mike

Ps 74:10 How long will the enemy mock you, O God?
Will the foe revile your name forever?
Ps 74:22 Rise up, O God, and defend your cause;
remember how fools mock you all day long.

Ps 119:51 The arrogant mock me without restraint,
but I do not turn from your law.(will)

Isa 52:5 “And now what do I have here?” declares the LORD.
“For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock,’”
declares the LORD.
“And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.

this will only stop at the end of this age.

Pierre

June 26, 2011 at 1:18 am#249878

Blocked

Yes, men can and do “mock” God. But man cannot “pierce” God. So if you take the LXX translation, then God is the one mocked while Jesus is the one mourned.

If you take the Hebrew, the one who is pierced is the one who is lamented. IMO

June 26, 2011 at 1:42 am#249881

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,19:18)

Yes, men can and do “mock” God. But man cannot “pierce” God. So if you take the LXX translation, then God is the one mocked while Jesus is the one mourned.

If you take the Hebrew, the one who is pierced is the one who is lamented. IMO

Mike

Pr 12:18 Reckless words pierce like a sword,
but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

Lk 2:35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

Ps 37:14 The wicked draw the sword
and bend the bow
to bring down the poor and needy,
to slay those whose ways are upright.
Ps 37:15 But their swords will pierce their own hearts,
and their bows will be broken.

Mt 24:51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 25:30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

this will say what i believe it is,

all my christian love

Pierre

June 27, 2011 at 4:38 pm#250096