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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,09:14) That is your strategy right there WJ. Accuse the other person of doing what you are doing. I have noticed that sometimes people's pet hate is the very thing they do but because they can't face up to it themselves, they decide to pin it on others.
I stumped you once again, and then you decide to bring out the big guns. i.e., comments like “get your head out of the sand” with no rebuttal to go with it.
If that is a big gun, then I have nothing to worry about do I?[/quote]
t8This is laughable being that you are the master at ad hominems!
WJ
I get that you don't get it WJ, but my only concern is why you are teaching when you cannot even comprehend what we have been saying to you. You repeat the same things over and over when answers have been given to you.At least question the answers, but asking the same questions and making the same statements over and over shows that you are not comprehending what we are saying.
This is why we have a debates section and Hot Seat however.
I look forward to seeing you in those debates again to sort some of this stuff out once and for all.
all
Quote 'they shall look on HIM whom they pierced.'” why is it says THEY and not HE because it was only one man who pierce Christ, Right?
Pierre
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,09:27) Do you ever say God is my rock and “HE” is my Savour?
Do you ever call God your Father and only God?As said many times to you before WJ, God is ultimately the one who saved us.
Why?
Because it was HE who sent his son into the world to save the world. Jesus didn't come in his own name under his own accord, with his own authority.
Jesus even said, “remove this cup from me, but Not MY will but YOUR will”.On many levels it is plain to see that God saved us by sending his son. At this stage you do not and I repeat do not need to invent a doctrine that blends them into the same being for the sake of your limited understanding.
Now WJ, I have given you are fair and reasonable answer, but I know full well that you will again ask the same question as if my answer was never given. (The symptom of a hard heart.)
So I will repeat it and hopefully it actually sinks into your understanding this time. OK, perhaps I am being too optimistic.
God is the ultimate savior. And those whom he commissions in that salvation plan are in a sense co-heirs or partners in that salvation and thus are saviours. Like Moses was a saviour, sent by God to save. Even angels act within the salvation plan of God.
“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”
And of course we know that Jesus is so much more than all of the ones who he uses to save because Jesus laid his life down for the souls of man, and that he is the only begotten of God and not just any man or angel.WJ, to put it bluntly, your understanding is too basic to comprehend such things, and I fully expect to get the typical “but Jesus saved us and therefore he is God” response. Do you not think for a moment that we can see right through your poor responses? I mean, it doesn't take a personal toll on me because I choose not to get bogged down in explaining things to a brick wall, but I have to say that every time I hear one of those silly answers or rebuttals, you lose more credibility each time, and I am afraid to say, but you ran out of credibility a very long time ago. The only reason I even respond to your repeated questions and lack of understanding is for the benefit of the reader. I concluded a long time ago, that it wasn't for your own good because it goes over your head each time. So I decide to make use of you as the scrutineer and questioner, for the benefit of readers who may voice the same question. So at least thanks for fulfilling that role, you have done well.
But honestly WJ, many people here understand things at a much deeper level than you and many of your approaches to what you see as inconsistent in scripture, but patched up when you apply the Trinity Doctrine is just plain wrong. My only concern for you is not that you cannot comprehend the meat of the word, (that is not a sin), but that you teach your basic understanding patched up with an external false doctrine as if it was all scriptural truth and found in scripture.
Teachers will be judged all the more, so you know the drill WJ.
Sowing and reaping and all that…Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,20:41) Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,17:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,09:14) That is your strategy right there WJ. Accuse the other person of doing what you are doing. I have noticed that sometimes people's pet hate is the very thing they do but because they can't face up to it themselves, they decide to pin it on others.
I stumped you once again, and then you decide to bring out the big guns. i.e., comments like “get your head out of the sand” with no rebuttal to go with it.
If that is a big gun, then I have nothing to worry about do I?
t8This is laughable being that you are the master at ad hominems!
WJ
I get that you don't get it WJ, but my only concern is why you are teaching when you cannot even comprehend what we have been saying to you. You repeat the same things over and over when answers have been given to you.At least question the answers, but asking the same questions and making the same statements over and over shows that you are not comprehending what we are saying.
This is why we have a debates section and Hot Seat however.
I look forward to seeing you in those debates again to sort some of this stuff out once and for all.
t8Another circular statement and more ad hominems.
I have been here for years and see you quoting the same things and haven't seen an iota of change in your beliefs. You even have your own “creed” on this sight.
WJ
Quote (david @ June 23 2011,10:18) Hi kj
My reasons for saying this are listed in the last post of page 44. But since you agree with me completely (that this is a very weak argument) I am actually quite interested in your reasoning, especially since you are a trinitarian I believe. (this would seem to make your argument all the stronger, you not being biased towards believing as I do about zech 12:10)I am also curious how Is 1:18 would have responded to you saying that zech 12:10 is a weak argument for trinitarians.
David,Again I agree with you that Zechariah 12:10 does not explicitly say that Jesus is Jehovah though the name Jesus means Jehovah and He is the substance to which all others who shared that name pointed.
You once said that the third person “him” in 12:10 is the one who is pierced and it makes no sense if Jehovah the first person speaking is the one who is pierced. I agree! BUT the JW's claim that Jehovah referred to Himself in the first and third persons in Exodus 23:25:
Quote 25 “So you shall serve the LORD your God, and He will bless your bread and your water. And I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
Jehovah is indeed the speaker here and He refers to “Jehovah your God” as “him” and then to Himself as “I.” The “him” is Jehovah the Angel and the “I” is Jehovah the speaker. They are TWO persons. But you must see the “him” and the “I” as one and the same person. But if the “him” and the “I” are one and the same, then by your own grammar in Zech. 12:10 this makes no sense.David:
Quote I don't understand how standing beside someone makes them your equal.
Then you don't understand Hebrew thought. Jesus stands next to Jehovah as Israel's Shepherd. David said, “Jehovah is my Shepherd.”I will look at your list later. Keep in mind that I have not returned here for good. t8 allows one of his “moderators” to start threads that slander people like WJ. T8 and his Bonehead “moderator” need for someone to give them a good spanking.
KJ
Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,21:34) God is the ultimate savior.
t8The scriptures do not claim as you say that the Father is the “ultimate” Savior so he gives us another “Savior”!
But once again without the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit you have no Savior.
Again, how many Saviors do you have?
Jesus is the source of all things to the creation. You can deny this if you like and continue to harden your heart that by Jesus “own hands” all things come to “his people” whom he redeemed for “himself”.
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
Your claim is against the scriptures that says God “ALONE” is our Savior for you are claiming that Jesus is our Savior by proxy like all other “Saviors” when the scriptures emphatically claim it was by Jesus own life and blood that saved us for himself and that there is only “One Savior”.
Jesus himself made the decision to humble himself and come in the likeness of sinful flesh and in fact Phil 2 clearly states that “HE” took upon himself the likeness of sinful flesh which in itself is a claim to Deity! For what being could take on the nature of another unless that being was God?
Once again, how may Saviors do you have t8?
I don’t expect you to give an honest scriptural answer because it appears you are too proud to admit that you serve 2 gods and 2 saviors.
Why does it take hundreds of words that is full of ad hominems and patronizing statements to answer a straight forward question? It is because your arguments are “weak” and have been rebutted centuries ago.
Why did you not address my points about “God” alone is our Savior when I said…
Also if Jesus is not one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit then you violate the scriptures that say…
Thou shalt have “no other gods” (elohiym) before me. Exod 20:3
And…
“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4
And…
…and that “there is none other God (theos) but one”. 1 Cor 8:4[/color]
Your theology places another god (theos) before YHWH.
Why don’t you say God is my “Saviors” since you have more than one?
WJ
There is only ONE SAVIOUR – YHVH GOD.
There is only One who gives Life – God Almighty – YHVH.
There is Only One God who is above all [other] Gods – the One True God – YHVH.
There is only One True God – God Most High – YHVH.All LIFE COMES FROM GOD.
When man dies, at the resurrection, Jesus will JUDGE whom will RETAIN their LIFE in the new world.Jesus does not 'GIVE' LIFE but it is more like 'hands out a ticket' which then THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD gives the Life…
Jesus just says 'Yes, you…', and 'No, not you…'Jesus does not SAVE… but THROUGH HIM the Soul is saved.
Jesus is the ROPE hanging down the side of the slippery slope… Through – by means of – with the aid of – the rope, Many are saved – but the ONE pulling up the rope IS YHVH GOD!
All who cling to that ROPE will be SAVED.This is the difference between the two 'Saviours' and 'Givers of Life'.
No one can come to God except through Jesus…
This, WJ, does not mean that Jesus is God –
But that God PLACED Jesus between himself and mankind to act as a FACILITATOR.
Through that FACILITATOR – man can reach God.If that FACILITATOR were God himself – why the lower status?
God is not a Man – Jesus IS A man…
Quote (Istari @ June 23 2011,14:08) There is only ONE SAVIOUR – YHVH GOD.
JAThank you for verifying the truth that Jesus is YHVH.
The scriptures emphatically claim it was by Jesus own life and blood that saved us for himself and that there is only “One Savior”.
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
Therefore Jesus is God for he is the source of all creation. Source
WJ
Istari wrote:
Quote There is only ONE SAVIOUR – YHVH GOD
Titus 2:13 says that jesus Christ is the savior. So Christ must be God or there are two saviors. You lose either way.Istari:
Quote There is only One who gives Life – God Almighty – YHVH.
John said, “In Him (Christ) was life.” So Christ must be YHWH.Istari:
Quote There is only One True God – God Most High – YHVH.
Jesus Christ is also called the true God (1 John 5:20).KJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,06:21) JA Thank you for verifying the truth that Jesus is YHVH.
The scriptures emphatically claim it was by Jesus own life and blood that saved us for himself and that there is only “One Savior”.
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF” for us, that ”HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
Therefore Jesus is God for he is the source of all creation. Source
WJ
You clearly demonstrate that you lack understanding on this subject WJ.T8,
Yes you are right.What was it that Jesus SAVED MANKIND FROM: Was it not ORIGINAL SIN.
Was it not the Sin of Adam from which there was no redemption…Jesus' Sacrifice was to clear all that away – to PAY FOR THAT.
Now, all Sin is down to the INDIVIDUAL.
The Apostles are saying that they await the SAVIOUR because they Know that they are part of the Group saved from before time BY GOD…
WJ, you only stress the meaning… And misunderstand it's connotations.
Why is there still Sin, then? Why will SOME (Many) still die (Be destroyed).
KJ,
You have just returned having learnt nothing…You speak what you do not understand.
Jesus is never called 'the one true God'.
If Jesus is called the one true god then who is YHVH?
Moreover, you clearly did not read what I wrote… Or rather you did but could not overcome it so you ignored it.
It appears that TRINITARIANS need to have huge disingenuous imaginations or be completely deluded in order to maintain their belief.
It's amazing how over so many years both KJ and WJ have moved an inch towards reality but just dug themselves in from FEAR.
Most times now WJ just has a laugh when responding to posts saying to himself : 'Heres a little nonsense that will flummox then, tee hee…!!'
When asked how could Jesus (as God) die – he was at a complete loss for an answer because it is clear that JESUS DIED…
Now, after many twists and turns, he has learned to say that JESUS DID NOT DIE…Oooh, that is SO BAD… bad boy, WJ (and KJ , also)
Yet, here they are saying, even quoting Scriptures that say 'Jesus DIED'.
Remember: He who does NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED and was RAISED AGAIN – has Crucified Christ Again – and that one is the ANTI-CHRIST…
Boys, what do you have to say now?
God died?
(your God died – your SAVIOUR DIED!! who raised him up again?)Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,16:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,06:21) JA Thank you for verifying the truth that Jesus is YHVH.
The scriptures emphatically claim it was by Jesus own life and blood that saved us for himself and that there is only “One Savior”.
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF” for us, that ”HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
Therefore Jesus is God for he is the source of all creation. Source
WJ
You clearly demonstrate that you lack understanding on this subject WJ.
t8And clearly you are rejecting scriptures that says Jesus is “Our Savior” and there is only “One Savior”.
When are you going to realize that Jesus is the source of all things to the creation?
Why don't you answer the question…
How many Saviors do you have?
WJ
Quote (Istari @ June 24 2011,15:56) T8,
Yes you are right.What was it that Jesus SAVED MANKIND FROM: Was it not ORIGINAL SIN.
Was it not the Sin of Adam from which there was no redemption…Jesus' Sacrifice was to clear all that away – to PAY FOR THAT.
Now, all Sin is down to the INDIVIDUAL.
The Apostles are saying that they await the SAVIOUR because they Know that they are part of the Group saved from before time BY GOD…
WJ, you only stress the meaning… And misunderstand it's connotations.
Why is there still Sin, then? Why will SOME (Many) still die (Be destroyed).
istariJer 33:8 I will cleanse them from all the sin they have committed against me and will forgive all their sins of rebellion against me.
Hos 14:2 Take words with you
and return to the LORD.
Say to him:
“Forgive all our sins
and receive us graciously,
that we may offer the fruit of our lips.God fortold all things
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,11:02) Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,21:34) God is the ultimate savior.
t8The scriptures do not claim as you say that the Father is the “ultimate” Savior so he gives us another “Savior”!
But once again without the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit you have no Savior.
Again, how many Saviors do you have?
Jesus is the source of all things to the creation. You can deny this if you like and continue to harden your heart that by Jesus “own hands” all things come to “his people” whom he redeemed for “himself”.
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
Your claim is against the scriptures that says God “ALONE” is our Savior for you are claiming that Jesus is our Savior by proxy like all other “Saviors” when the scriptures emphatically claim it was by Jesus own life and blood that saved us for himself and that there is only “One Savior”.
Jesus himself made the decision to humble himself and come in the likeness of sinful flesh and in fact Phil 2 clearly states that “HE” took upon himself the likeness of sinful flesh which in itself is a claim to Deity! For what being could take on the nature of another unless that being was God?
Once again, how may Saviors do you have t8?
I don’t expect you to give an honest scriptural answer because it appears you are too proud to admit that you serve 2 gods and 2 saviors.
Why does it take hundreds of words that is full of ad hominems and patronizing statements to answer a straight forward question? It is because your arguments are “weak” and have been rebutted centuries ago.
Why did you not address my points about “God” alone is our Savior when I said…
Also if Jesus is not one God with the Father and the Holy Spirit then you violate the scriptures that say…
Thou shalt have “no other gods” (elohiym) before me. Exod 20:3
And…
“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4
And…
…and that “there is none other God (theos) but one”. 1 Cor 8:4[/color]
Your theology places another god (theos) before YHWH.
Why don’t you say God is my “Saviors” since you have more than one?
WJ
Bump for t8…Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,09:31) How many Saviors do you have?
YHWH saved me through Jesus Christ.YHWH is the true saviour. Therefore one saviour who uses multiple agencies.
Agencies = Jesus who died for me, the evangelist who led me to faith, angels who save me from calamities.How many Saviors do you have?
Let me answer your own question.
You have three according to your doctrine.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You also have to admit to other agencies such as the person who preached the gospel to you, and angels who save you and protect you from physical calamities.
You have 3 saviours, they are Father, Son, Spirit.
So you have saviours (plural).
Let's hear you say that you have saviours, because your idea of God is THEM and THEY.
Remember that we came to that fair, reasonable, and mutual agreement.It is best to use English grammar correctly isn't it?
But for US, there is one God the Father, (HIM).
And for you, there is one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (THEY).Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2011,13:27)
Istari wrote:Quote There is only ONE SAVIOUR – YHVH GOD
Titus 2:13 says that jesus Christ is the savior. So Christ must be God or there are two saviors. You lose either way.
Isaiah 19:20
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.
This scripture says our ONE “LORD Almighty” will SEND a savior. He who SENDS is one, and he who IS SENT is another, no? But no matter how many people Jehovah sends to be saviors of us, there is still no savior apart from Him, for none of the others would have the power to save even a hair on their own head if not for Him.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2011,13:27)
Istari:Quote There is only One who gives Life – God Almighty – YHVH.
John said, “In Him (Christ) was life.” So Christ must be YHWH.
I also have life in me, for I am alive. But consider the prophets and the disciples who raised the dead to life – it was also granted them to have life in them, right? The big question is WHO granted anyone at any time to have life in them? The answer is the same whether you're speaking of Elijah, Peter, or Jesus.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 23 2011,13:27)
Istari:Quote There is only One True God – God Most High – YHVH.
Jesus Christ is also called the true God (1 John 5:20).
Poppycock, but one that should be added to the Bizzaro Doctrine thread: Deliberately misinterpreting a clear scripture to pretend that it supports your doctrine.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 24 2011,11:33) Poppycock, but one that should be added to the Bizzaro Doctrine thread: Deliberately misinterpreting a clear scripture to pretend that it supports your doctrine.
Amazing that some need to resort to misrepresentation to prove their doctrine.What is a person being saved from if their faith requires the old flesh ways of lying and deceit?
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