Trinity – Is 1:18's Proof Text #2

[Cult Buster]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2007,14:19)

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 15 2007,23:29) Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Look! Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Act 7:60  And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge Context please. It is deceptive to paint a different context. This type of deception is from the Father of Lies. Here is the true context: Acts 7:56 Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” So he is at God's right hand side. It is written. You knew about this verse but chose not to include it, so as to strengthen your inaccurate argument. That is wrong and no good can come of it.

You've still got a problem t8.

Stephen was kneeling and worshipping Jesus.

No amount of your “twisting” can change the Bible truth.

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name.
Stephen was kneeling in prayer to Jesus.

Look again!

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60  And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

From the Literal Translation Bible. (LITV)

Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. .
Act 7:60  And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep.

See also from the YLT (1898 Young's Literal Translation)

Act 7:59  and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Act 7:60  and having bowed the knees, he cried with a loud voice, `Lord, mayest thou not lay to them this sin;' and this having said, he fell asleep.
 

Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. Stephen was worshiping Jesus.

Rev 19:10  tells us to worship only God:

Jesus is Yahweh God    

T8. Carefully read the following.

2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).

[Worshipping Jesus]

CB

Amen!

Not only that, but he prayed for Jesus to recieve his Spirit, and he asked Jesus to forgive them of this sin.

Only God can recieve a mans spirit and forgive sins against another man!

It is curious as to why this Godly man full of the Holy Spirit never mentioned “Father” here at all.

Its because they understood that Jesus is their connection to the Father (God) and to have Jesus was to have the Father (God).

They understood that all authority and power was restored back to Jesus which he had from the foundations of the world when he laid the foundations of the world.

Stephen saw Jesus in the flesh standing at the right hand of the Father, Not beneath him, nor above him, but beside him as God. The Word was with God and the Word is still with God, and the Word is still God!

They understood that Jesus was very God in the flesh!

[Not3in1]

WJ,

Good to hear from you!

How can God be standing next to himself?

Thanks

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 23 2007,00:51)

You've still got a problem t8. Stephen was kneeling and worshipping Jesus. No amount of your “twisting” can change the Bible truth. Stephen was kneeling and praying directly to Jesus. There is no evidence that he was praying to Jesus in the Fathers name, or that he was praying to the Father in Jesus' name. Stephen was kneeling in prayer to Jesus. Look again! Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, who was calling on God and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. Act 7:60 And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, do not lay this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

I don't have a problem with anyone calling upon God AND saying Lord Jesus receive my spirit. I hope I get that chance before I die too.

But I cannot fathom how you can say that he was worshipping Jesus from this text or how you can say that this text is saying that Jesus is God. My understanding is that you believe such things and then everything becomes tainted with this point of view.

You also didn't notice that it said he was calling on God AND saying …..

If I said I was chatting to Bob AND I said something directly to Bob's son, then would that make Bob's son, Bob himself?

Jesus is at the right hand of God. Nothing you say can change that. Jesus is the son of that God. Nothing you say can change that truth.

You cannot change these truths. Not even the Gates of Hell will prevail against them, so why even bother?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 23 2007,07:22)

WJ, Good to hear from you! How can God be standing next to himself? Thanks

not3

If you are standing next to your Son would you say how can you be my Son and be human too?

Jesus is the “Monogenes”, Unique Son of God, as well as Son of Man. God and Man. God in the flesh.

No other Son of God can be the express Image of God.

There are two realitys in the Universe…

God and creation!

God and creature!

Since all things were made by Jesus and without Jesus was “NOTHING” made that was made, and since he is before all things and, by him all things consist and, All things are upheld by the Word of “His” power!

And since he is from everlasting to everlasting…

That means he is not a creature for he didnt create himself.

Since he dosnt fit in the “All” things catagory because he was before all things and he is not a created being, for there is no such scripture to say such.

And since the scriptures say that God “Alone” by himself created “all things, then Jesus is very God one with the Father and the Spirit.

Or the scriptures contradict themselves!

[Proclaimer]

History shows that Greek thinking has had a strong influence on Christianity. Greek thinking demanded that all things fit into 2 categories, i.e., created or uncreated. So according to this type of thinking, Christ was either created or uncreated. This helped immensely in shaping the Trinity Doctrine.

But scripture teaches that between the uncreated God and creation, then was an intermediary step. This mediator is Christ who is the Word become flesh. He is the ONLY begotten and the only one who has seen God and can declare him.

There is a big jump between God and created beings. In fact we cannot even see God, so forget about trying to shake his hand.

1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

But for us there is the image of God. i.e., Christ, who reveals the invisible God to us. That is why Jesus said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. Jesus wasn't a created angel and nor was he a non-created God. Scripture is clear. He is and was the Word of God. The firstborn son. The only begotten.

Now if we are to correctly understand the truth about rank and where Christ is in relation to God and us. Look at this next scripture:

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

So us created beings have a head who is Christ. BUT Christ also has a head who is GOD.

Can you grasp what this means? It changes the very foundation of most denominations and this is why such teaching is largely ignored today. Men want to cling to that which they create with their own hands. Yes Christ is our origin, for he is our head and we came into being by God through Christ.

* God > Christ/Word > Man > Woman.
* God > Christ/Word > creation

It isn't the following as many people advocate:

* God> Angel > Man
* God-Father > God-Jesus> Man/creation.

Greek thinking sets the stage for the existence of those last 2 incorrect points. That is why I am convinced that Greek thinking has contaminated much of Christianity. Sadly many of these infected people fight to stay infected and try to infect others. But Paul knew about the Greeks and their philosophy, yet he preached “Christ crucified” to them, which was an offense to their proud intellectualism.

So Paul didn't take the stance of trying to compete with their intellectual understanding of things because he knew the foolishness of God was greater than the wisdom of men. Yet some teachers try to intellectualize false doctrine. But false doctrine is false doctrine, no matter how big the words you use.

Jesus is not created nor is he the uncreated God. Instead, he is the only begotten of God, the Word OF God.

A wise man will stick to revelation from God which includes scripture. A foolish man will imagine all kinds of vain imaginations with his own mind from his own spirit and try to create God in an image that fits his limited understanding.

[Worshipping Jesus]

T8

You say…

Quote

History shows that Greek thinking has had a strong influence on Christianity. Greek thinking demanded that all things fit into 2 categories, i.e., created or uncreated. So according to this type of thinking, Christ was either created or uncreated. This helped immensely in shaping the Trinity Doctrine.

Created or uncreated! Is there anything else? How do you see anything else in these passages of scriptures?

Jn 1:3 KJV
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jn 1:3 NIV
Through him all things were made; “without him” nothing was made that has been made.

Rom 11:36
For *from him* and *through him* and *to him* are *all things*. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Now if “Nothing” was made, or “Not Anything” was made without him, Yeshua, then where and how does Yeshua have his beginning? Scriptures please!

Since all things means “Time, Space and Matter” included, then enlighten us with scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning?

Or maybe you think somewhere way back before time God conceived and was pregnant and “brought birth” to the Word. Which still would fit in the made category.

But if the Word was born then did it go like this…

God spoke the Word and the Word was born? Or maybe like this…

God thought a word and the Word was born? So when God said let there be light and there was light…

That means he thought a word and Spoke it and the Word was born then through his “born Word” he said let there be light and there was light?

“Oh the tangeled webs we weave, when first we practice to decieve”.

The greeks believed in many “gods” and that more than one God created all things.

John understood that only One God created all things when he said…

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

You say…

Quote

But scripture teaches that between the uncreated God and creation, then was an intermediary step. This mediator is Christ who is the Word become flesh. He is the ONLY begotten and the only one who has seen God and can declare him.

Sounds good! However you provide no scripture that says the pre-existent Yeshua is a mediator “Before” he came in the flesh.

Also while you are at it can you show us where he is the “Only Begotten Son of God” in scripture before his natural birth?

Where is the scripture that says he is the “Son of God” before his natural birth.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be **born of thee** shall be called the Son of God.

Jn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of **the only begotten of the Father**,) full of grace and truth.

You say…

Quote

There is a big jump between God and created beings. In fact we cannot even see God, so forget about trying to shake his hand. 1 Timothy 6:15-16 15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So explain t8 how Jesus who was also a man, could have seen God when John says “No man hath see God at anytime?
You have a contradiction if Jesus is merely a man and not God. Don’t forget in the same chapter John said the Word was God! You see t8 when Jesus looks at the Father he sees himself and when the Father looks at Jesus he sees himself!

You say…

Quote

But for us there is the image of God. i.e., Christ, who reveals the invisible God to us. That is why Jesus said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father”. Jesus wasn't a created angel and nor was he a non-created God. Scripture is clear. He is and was the Word of God. The firstborn son. The only begotten.

Scriptures please? Where is Jesus said to be “The spoken Word of God”.

John didn’t say…

In the beginning was the Word of God, and the Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God!

Jesus is given the name “Word of God” in revelation because from him proceeds the “Word of God”.

Rev 19:13
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The sword going out of his mouth is the word of God!

Further more this same word is the word which brought everything into being. The spoken word of Yeshua.

You are implying that Yeshua is the spoken word, therefore you are saying that God speaks his spoken word through the spoken word.

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Also you imply deceitfully that he is the firstborn Son and begotten before he was born in the flesh, meaning you are saying Yeshua was “Born” somewhere way back before all things. Scriptures please.

You say…

Quote

Now if we are to correctly understand the truth about rank and where Christ is in relation to God and us. Look at this next scripture: 1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. So us created beings have a head who is Christ. BUT Christ also has a head who is GOD. Can you grasp what this means? It changes the very foundation of most denominations and this is why such teaching is largely ignored today. Men want to cling to that which they create with their own hands. Yes Christ is our origin, for he is our head and we came into being by God through Christ.   * God > Christ/Word > Man > Woman.   * God > Christ/Word > creation It isn't the following as many people advocate:   * God> Angel > Man   * God-Father > God-Jesus> Man/creation.

No its more like…

Isa 45:18
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it*; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and *there is none else*.

1 Cor 11:13 simply speaks of the order of things and not the nature of things!

There is no other being that created all things t8 but God, “By himself” “Alone”, “None other”!

God and creation! Show me scriptures that says other wise!

You say…

Quote

Greek thinking sets the stage for the existence of those last 2 incorrect points. That is why I am convinced that Greek thinking has contaminated much of Christianity. Sadly many of these infected people fight to stay infected and try to infect others. But Paul knew about the Greeks and their philosophy, yet he preached “Christ crucified” to them, which was an offense to their proud intellectualism. So Paul didn't take the stance of trying to compete with their intellectual understanding of things because he knew the foolishness of God was greater than the wisdom of men. Yet some teachers try to intellectualize false doctrine. But false doctrine is false doctrine, no matter how big the words you use. Jesus is not created nor is he the uncreated God. Instead, he is the only begotten of God, the Word OF God.

Again John must have known about the greeks belief in many gods like you believe that we are gods, Yet John says the Word which is God created all things and even Paul says the same knowing there is only “One God” and that God created all things!

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Again you say, ”he is the only begotten of God, the Word of God”!

Begotten after his natural birth? Yes!

Word of God? Not as you impl… “God spoke and Yeshua came into existence”!

You say…

Quote

A wise man will stick to revelation from God which includes scripture. A foolish man will imagine all kinds of vain imaginations with his own mind from his own spirit and try to create God in an image that fits his limited understanding.

Good advise t8. You should not imagine the “Image of the invisible God” to be less than God!!!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 24 2007,12:31)

Created or uncreated! Is there anything else? How do you see anything else in these passages of scriptures?

So you admit to the Greek framework being a model by which you see scripture.

Well how about this.

God (uncreated)
Christ (born/begotten/of/from God)
Man (created through Christ/Word)

Jesus body as a man would surely be created, but he himself was born or begotten of God. He is directly of God. He wasn't the result of God through Christ because he is Christ.

God > Christ > Man

This is the part you cannot understand. So you say that he is
100% both.

God Christ Man

He is the mediator between God and man.

You just admitted to me that you are influenced by this Greek thinking. That is why you fooled into accepting the Trinity doctrine.

But if that hurts your pride, or you wish to save face, you can always argue further as to how you are right. But then that doesn't nullify the fact that Greek thinking has your mind.

[Worshipping Jesus]

T8

You said…

Quote

So you admit to the Greek framework being a model by which you see scripture.

I didn’t admit to any such thing! The greeks believed that there were many gods. In fact they believed men were gods. Sound familiar t8? It seems you believe like the Greeks. For you admit that men are gods. Yet, Paul says they are “So called gods, and not gods at all”.

You said…

Quote

Well how about this. God (uncreated) Christ (born/begotten/of/from God) Man (created through Christ/Word)

 Are you making this up as you go along?

OK! Lets see.

God (uncreated)…. Yep!

Christ (born/begotten/of/from God)…

[Proclaimer]

Quote

Could you maybe give one scripture that says Yeshua was (born/begotten/of/from God) before he came in the flesh?

Are you saying that he wasn't of God before he came in the flesh?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 24 2007,18:46)

I didn’t admit to any such thing! The greeks believed that there were many gods. In fact they believed men were gods. Sound familiar t8? It seems you believe like the Greeks. For you admit that men are gods. Yet, Paul says they are “So called gods, and not gods at all”.

Yet Jesus said “You are gods”.

I suppose that he was wrong was he?

You differ with Jesus.

He quoted this verse:

Psalm 82:6
“I said, 'You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.'

It is plain that you differ with Jesus.

Look at Jesus words and then look at yours.

In fact I will do it for you.

Jesus	Worshipping Jesus
“You are gods”.	All gods are not gods at all

Hmmm you call yourself WorshippingJesus and yet you do not believe what he said. That seems strange doesn't it? Believe me when I say that we will all give an account before God and it will be more exposing than this. It is better to get our lives straight now so our judgement will be better.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 24 2007,18:46)

Nothing you say here t8 says the Word was born or had a beginning.

Actually it is more like that there is nothing to say that the Word was with God for eternity past as Trinitarians assume. Although I am not sure of your stance as your Trinity doctrine is a little different to the official one. You seem to have a customised one and then you believe that your one is the correct one and everyone should adhere to it.

It is obvious God has attributes and that it is easy to accept that God changes not. But to believe that the Word was with God for eternity, well it isn't written is it?

It is also not written that the Angel Gabriel had a beginning, but what can I deduce from that?

Some things are not written, but that doesn't mean that you can add your own interpretation.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 24 2007,18:46)

You throw out these little formulas of yours insisting that it has to be the way you say and that everyone who dosnt accept your formula is proud, yet you give us no clear scriptures to support your theory. Your formula only speaks of the order of things and not the nature of things. Scriptures t8?

Formula?

ha ha.

Your kidding right?

If I said “The substance God contains 3 persons” would you call that a formula?

Well that is what you say.

Here is the formula again:

And if that isn't an idol, then what is it?

[Proclaimer]

As always WJ, you are entertaining.

Where is your hat, so I can throw a few coins in?

[charity]

durst any man this day ask this question ?
I know from that day forth they neither ask him any more questions.

Mat 22:41 ¶ While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any [man] from that day forth ask him any more [questions].

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 24 2007,21:11)

Quote Could you maybe give one scripture that says Yeshua was (born/begotten/of/from God) before he came in the flesh? Are you saying that he wasn't of God before he came in the flesh?

t8

I am saying that he was and is God before he came in the flesh.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Its in your bible t8, in fact I think its in most bibles.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 25 2007,16:21)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 24 2007,21:11) Quote Could you maybe give one scripture that says Yeshua was (born/begotten/of/from God) before he came in the flesh? Are you saying that he wasn't of God before he came in the flesh? t8 I am saying that he was and is God before he came in the flesh. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Its in your bible t8, in fact I think its in most bibles.

I thought the Trinity Doctrine says that the son is God and the son is an eternal generation of the Father. Your Trinity doctrine is different as you say the son did not exist prior to birth 2000 or so years ago.

I am just pointing out that you differ on the point of the son. Or maybe you don't. Who knows?

Anyway the Word was theos.
Hey sons of the most high are theos.
Does that make them God himself?

This is the point you cannot seem to grasp.
The use of theos in scripture is not consistent with your usage.

Theos without an article can be read as a quality, just as devil without an article can be. But hey, ignore it if you want. Every man has a free will. Men can choose to be ignorant if they want.

That is the amazing thing about free will. It's not like we can excuse ourselves by saying “I had no idea”. If a man chooses not to know, then he makes himself ignorant and has no one else to blame but himself.

The lack of knowledge can be our downfall.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 25 2007,16:21)

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Its in your bible t8, in fact I think its in most bibles.

The bible also says that there is no God.

Context is what is important and you ignore the message in the Book of John and isolate this particular text to portray a different meaning.

That is deceptive is it not?

[Proclaimer]

Oh BTYW WJ.

Am I to assume that you agree that you differ with Christ in the following?

Jesus	Worshipping Jesus
“You are gods”.	All gods are not gods at all

[GeneBalthrop]

t8……> stand strong you have won all the way through on these debates, but then the truth will always prevail. These blind trinitarians are only here to confuse, as they twist up the scriptures. They can't even see all the obivious scriptures that are contrary to their teachings, they have to go to scriptures that can be taken different ways but totaly neglect the obivious ones , the do just what Jesus said ,” they strain out a gnat and swollow a camel. Peace to you brother………gene

[Author]

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