Transcendence versus immanence

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Using extra-Biblical language to define God and extra-Biblical revelations defining God has caused many divisions. The trinity doctrine uses extra-Biblical language and is an extra-Biblical revelation. It is a theory that many insist on as doctrine. You know how our public schools are trying to teach evolution as fact when they should only teach it as theory? That is how I feel about the doctrine. I feel like a Christian in a secular school where I am opposing main stream teachings because I see things differently and more clearly my way. HN has been a friendlier place for me to test my understanding than say a message board founded be trinitarians I would assume, or a message board founded by unitarians. If I discuss things with fellow pre-existents and we disagree, I feel like they are at least seeing a lot of the same things as I am and thus I am more open to their concerns regarding my understanding. I think it would be interesting to have an area on the board just for trinitarians, pre-existents, and unitarians and then a combo area like we have. Anyway…just rambling. Thanks for listening!

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,23:41)

Hi all Shall I go a little further. Most of the feeding of the hungry, the healing of the sick, the feeding the sheep, the providing of shelters, the preaching of the word of God, providing clothing, the leading men to Christ, the taking care of the destitute, lonely, drug attics, alcaholics, sexually abused children, and on and on is done by Trinitarian works and not by those who have seprerated themselves from his people because they do no agree with the Trinity doctrine. Just ask everyone on this sight if it was a Trinitarian ministry that lead them to Jesus and you will see what I mean. Why is it that those who are led to Jesus leave that Jesus to accept another Jesus? WJ

Keith,
Why do you call them trinitarian ministries instead of Christian ministries. Aren't you placing the emphasis on an extra-Biblical revelation and overriding the Biblical revelation. The Mormons have their extra-Biblical revelation too. The Mormons have their “Book of Mormon” that they add to the Bible with. The Trinitarians have their “pamphlet” explaining a triune God that they add to the Bible with. Many of us here would find extra-Biblical teachings as adding to the word of God and we are warned about that.

You seem to think that many were led to Christ because of a trinity doctrine, however the trinity doctrine usually doesn't even get taught till after one becomes a Christian. You show me a “tract” passed out by the street evangelist that will mention the trinity doctrine as it speaks of the simple plan of salvation and then you may be right that it was the doctrine that led people to Christ. I have been analyzing these tracts and have never found one with the extra-Biblical terms in it but I have found that they speak of the Son of God who paid for our sins so that we can not be separated from God. Isn't that the teaching that led us to God in the first place. It is later that people replace that simple truth with a complicated, impossible to understand, extra-Biblical explanation, the “triune” God. I believe from my experiences that the first Jesus that people accept is the Jesus that is the Son of God not the Jesus that is a second person of a three-in-one triune God.

I challenge you to find the basic evangelistic tract that uses the terms triune, first person, second person, third person, co-eternal, co-equal. So there, my point is the first Jesus that people meet is not second person of God but the Son of God. They will later be asked to believe in a triune God not visa versa. Trinitarians leave their first Jesus to accept another Jesus.IMO

God bless you Keith,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,23:52)

Keith, Using extra-Biblical language to define God and extra-Biblical revelations defining God has caused many divisions.  The trinity doctrine uses extra-Biblical language and is an extra-Biblical revelation.  It is a theory that many insist on as doctrine.  You know how our public schools are trying to teach evolution as fact when they should only teach it as theory?  That is how I feel about the doctrine.  I feel like a Christian in a secular school where I am opposing main stream teachings because I see things differently and more clearly my way.  HN has been a friendlier place for me to test my understanding than say a message board founded be trinitarians I would assume, or a message board founded by unitarians.  If I discuss things with fellow pre-existents and we disagree, I feel like they are at least seeing a lot of the same things as I am and thus I am more open to their concerns regarding my understanding.  I think it would be interesting to have an area on the board just for trinitarians, pre-existents, and unitarians and then a combo area like we have.  Anyway…just rambling.  Thanks for listening! Kathi

Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2009,23:52)

Using extra-Biblical language to define God and extra-Biblical revelations defining God has caused many divisions.  The trinity doctrine uses extra-Biblical language and is an extra-Biblical revelation.

There is nothing extra-biblical about calling the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, God!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Paul would seem to differ in 1 Cor 8
But you have set your own course and not looked back. Where are you headed?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,00:16)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2009,23:41) Hi all Shall I go a little further. Most of the feeding of the hungry, the healing of the sick, the feeding the sheep, the providing of shelters, the preaching of the word of God, providing clothing, the leading men to Christ, the taking care of the destitute, lonely, drug attics, alcaholics, sexually abused children, and on and on is done by Trinitarian works and not by those who have seprerated themselves from his people because they do no agree with the Trinity doctrine. Just ask everyone on this sight if it was a Trinitarian ministry that lead them to Jesus and you will see what I mean. Why is it that those who are led to Jesus leave that Jesus to accept another Jesus? WJ Keith, Why do you call them trinitarian ministries instead of Christian ministries.  Aren't you placing the emphasis on an extra-Biblical revelation and overriding the Biblical revelation.  The Mormons have their extra-Biblical revelation too.  The Mormons have their “Book of Mormon” that they add to the Bible with.  The Trinitarians have their “pamphlet” explaining a triune God that they add to the Bible with.  Many of us here would find extra-Biblical teachings as adding to the word of God and we are warned about that. You seem to think that many were led to Christ because of a trinity doctrine, however the trinity doctrine usually doesn't even get taught till after one becomes a Christian.  You show me a “tract” passed out by the street evangelist that will mention the trinity doctrine as it speaks of the simple plan of salvation and then you may be right that it was the doctrine that led people to Christ.  I have been analyzing these tracts and have never found one with the extra-Biblical terms in it but I have found that they speak of the Son of God who paid for our sins so that we can not be separated from God.  Isn't that the teaching that led us to God in the first place.  It is later that people replace that simple truth with a complicated, impossible to understand, extra-Biblical explanation, the “triune” God.  I believe from my experiences that the first Jesus that people accept is the Jesus that is the Son of God not the Jesus that is a second person of a three-in-one triune God.   I challenge you to find the basic evangelistic tract that uses the terms triune, first person, second person, third person, co-eternal, co-equal.  So there, my point is the first Jesus that people meet is not second person of God but the Son of God.  They will later be asked to believe in a triune God not visa versa.  Trinitarians leave their first Jesus to accept another Jesus.IMO God bless you Keith, Kathi

Hi Kathi

Get real. You are purposly diverting from my point.

Most Christian churches are Trinitarian!

And as far as the tracts, I got saved in a Baptist church that was preaching Jesus and to believe in him and ask him to forgive me of my sins and to make him Lord of my life. I had recieved Jesus that day and was talking and praying to him by the Holy Spirit in the pugh before I went to the alter. I had never prayed a prayer in my life and the Holy Spirit testified of Jesus in me. It didnt take a rocket scientist to know that only God could forgive sins and that praying to Jesus was praying to God.

Then I went forward and was led into another room and given the four spiritual laws pamplet that showed a circle where God was to be the center of that circle instead of me. I practically memorized the tract for days for I didn't have a Bible at the time. Jesus was the center of my heart. Jesus forgave my sins, Jesus introduced me to the Father and Jesus was my God in whom I prayed to, worshipped, and repented of my sins. And a little later Jesus baptised me in the Holy Spirit, who but God could do that? I have been serving that same Jesus for 35 years. My image of him has not diminished, how about yours? Id never heard of the Trinity but knew that he was my God, how about you, is he your God, if so then how many gods do you serve? If not then why do you call him the begotten God when scriptures say you should not even make mention of other gods.

So no, your comment is out of line because if the Trinitarian churches were teaching the Trinity and it was not being believed then most would not remain. I challenge you to show me statistics that says that most who are converted through a Trinitarian church turn away from Jesus and accept another Jesus when they begin to learn that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are one God.

I would dare say it is until they hear some unbeliever talking about Jesus not being God (like the JWs in Irenes case) that the seeds of doubt enter in and instead of believing their own heart and experience and the scritpures that claim Jesus is God, they begin to open up to deception by reasoning and then they began to diminish the Son of God by nature. Instead of Jesus becoming bigger in their hearts he gets smaller untill he no longer gets any praise or worship which is due to him and which belongs to God only!

I find it amazing what you are saying for you even have said you go to a Trinitarian church, then why havn't you come out from among her?

So since you believe now that Jesus is a god instead of the “True God” do you confess the begotten God in your church?

Blessings to you also, WJ

[Cindy]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,03:52)

Quote (Cindy @ July 26 2009,18:39) It is so easy to understand when you can see that the Word God is a tittle.  God the Father who is above had another name Jehovah God.  And of course Jesus who was the Word who became flesh.  When you see it that way, there is no trinity.  Scripture teaches us so, that the Father is greater then the Son. Jesus own word.  Remember that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  I say that because some might say that after He died for us, He became equal to the Father. Not according to the Bible. Peace and Love Irene Irene Scriptures teach there is only “One True God” therfore all others are false. So is Jesus a “false god” or is he “True God”?   WJ

Our Heavenly Father is above all and I gave Scripture to prove my point. Jesus is the Son of God, even though in John He is called God and became flesh. To me it is so easy when you understand what the name God stands for, again a tittle. Both have other names, don't they? Jehovah and Y”shua.
Peace and Love Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,12:06)

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,11:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,11:27) Hi TT, So you worship all the prophets as well as God wished they would be respected and honored too? Nick, TC is right. You should bring to the table serious discourse instead of your foolish nonsense. The Bible doesn't say that we are to honor prophets. Jesus said that we are to honor Him EVEN AS we honor the Father. If you don't you are disobedient! thinker hi TT, Read the parable of the vineyard and you will see Jesus the Son was sent after all the previous servants were wrongly murdered by rebellious men. This rebellion still continues manifested even as trinity idol worship among believers.

Nick,
The servants were sent first. Then the Son was sent. The Son was not a servant in that parable. Even if He was a servant He has been exalted and is no longer servant. You anti-trinitarians do not accept that Christ has been exalted. You are in disobedience. If you don't honor the Son EVEN AS you honor His Father you will pay for it. The One you deny is your Judge because ALL judgment has been committed to Him.

“Kiss the Son lest He be angry with you and you perish.” (Psalm 2)

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ July 30 2009,12:17)

Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,03:56) Gene and thinker!  I am so amazed that some just don't want to understand no matter what you put in front of them.  God, LORD, Almighty God, Almighty Father, Heavenly Father.  All tittles.  So Jesus the Word, Jesus the Lord, and Son of God.  That is why Jehovah God is called Heavenly Father, and we are His adopted Sons of our Heavenly Father.  Why do we call our Fathers, Father?  Is it not because you had something to do with that?  Jesus came forth from the Father or Jehovah God.   Notice that there is LORD and Lord.  The difference is LORD is the Father God and Lord is the Son of God.  When you understand all of that, you will not have any problems. Also let us not forget who is greater, the Son or the Father?  In Jesus own words He said that ” My Father is greater then I.” John 14:28 Why would John said that if it was not so.  And I believe that is why you have the difference ways of saying Lord and LORD, and Father and Son God.  The Son is a begotten Sob of God and we need to realize that there is a difference.  Who do we pray to?  Is it not God the Father through Jesus Christ our Mediator?  When we understand all of that, we also know that there is no trinity. I used to believe in the trinity and changing is not easy, I do understand that.  And I used to pray and I sometimes still do to give me wisdom to understand the truth.   Peace and Love Irene Irene ………The problem is not they wont believe, the problem is they (CAN”T) GOD has sent them a deluding Spirit,(intellect) ,they are unable to see or understand that there is (ONLY) ONE GOD and thats all there ever was.  It's amazing to me how they can not get it, But it does say God would send them a deluding spirit (IN ORDER) for them to believe the (LIE)> Another words The Trinity is so obviously wrong it takes God to send a deluding Spirit (intellect) to them to even believe the LIE. The LIE is Jesus is a GOD. IMO peace and love to you and Georg………………….gene

Gene,
Jesus died for you. How can you deny Him the way you do? Your beliefs are NOT biblical and NOT Christian.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene @ July 30 2009,14:22)

WJ……….The question is not is your Jesus the same Jesus you say you serve, the question is , Is He a GOD as Trinitarians claim. Or is He a man Just like Us (OUR BROTHER) the first born of (MANY) Bretheren. Is He the (Mederator between GOD and (MAN) the (MAN) Jesus or not? and on and on it Goes, Question Trinitarians can never truly answer because of their Delusion. Even the simple truth they can seen to understand, much less the complex. “HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD”. Also, “THERE IS (NO) GOD BESIDES ME, I KNOW NOT ANY”. EVEN JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED THESE OBVIOUS AND SIMPLE TRUTHS, But for some reason TRINITARIANS , can't understand the many, many many scriptures that prove there is (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD) as Jesus said. Tell us why that is WJ? Come out of those false teaching while there is time WJ. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

Gene,
The Father calls Jesus “God” and creator (Hebrews 1:6-10). You disagree with the Father. Even your friend and brother  bodhitharta acknowledge that it says this. So he explained it by saying that Hebrews 1 is corrupt. This is the only option you have. So why don't you just go with bd all the way?

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said to WJ:

Quote

Do you understand that many were in trinitarian churches when they realized that the doctrine wasn't what they felt as Biblical.

Kathi,
I was led to Christ by two former JW's. It happens both ways. So let's just stick to Scripture.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2009,15:41)

Hi all Shall I go a little further. Most of the feeding of the hungry, the healing of the sick, the feeding the sheep, the providing of shelters, the preaching of the word of God, providing clothing, the leading men to Christ, the taking care of the destitute, lonely, drug attics, alcaholics, sexually abused children, and on and on is done by Trinitarian works and not by those who have seprerated themselves from his people because they do no agree with the Trinity doctrine. Just ask everyone on this sight if it was a Trinitarian ministry that lead them to Jesus and you will see what I mean. Why is it that those who are led to Jesus leave that Jesus to accept another Jesus? WJ

EXACTLY! And one of the reasons for this is that God showed Himself the example by coming down to our level and becoming one of us. He became immanent. The God of anti-trinitarians is not immanent.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,17:01)

Hi WJ, Paul would seem to differ in 1 Cor 8 But you have set your own course and not looked back. Where are you headed?

What about 1 Corinthians 8 Nick? Jesus is clearly distinguished from and set higher than all other “lords” there. What is your point?

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,17:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,03:52) Quote (Cindy @ July 26 2009,18:39) It is so easy to understand when you can see that the Word God is a tittle.  God the Father who is above had another name Jehovah God.  And of course Jesus who was the Word who became flesh.  When you see it that way, there is no trinity.  Scripture teaches us so, that the Father is greater then the Son. Jesus own word.  Remember that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  I say that because some might say that after He died for us, He became equal to the Father. Not according to the Bible. Peace and Love Irene Irene Scriptures teach there is only “One True God” therfore all others are false. So is Jesus a “false god” or is he “True God”?   WJ Our Heavenly Father is above all and I gave Scripture to prove my point.  Jesus is the Son of God, even though in John He is called God and became flesh.  To me it is so easy when you understand what the name God stands for, again a tittle.  Both have other names, don't they?  Jehovah and Y”shua. Peace and Love Irene

Irene,
Scripture also says that Jesus is “ALL IN ALL.” (Colossians 1) Why do you pick and choose which scriptures you will believe and not believe like Gene?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So Jesus is Lord?
Lord Jesus has a God[jn20]
You cannot set up your own gods.

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,04:39)

Lightenup said to WJ: Quote Do you understand that many were in trinitarian churches when they realized that the doctrine wasn't what they felt as Biblical. Kathi, I was led to Christ by two former JW's. It happens both ways. So let's just stick to Scripture. thinker

Ok Thinker…there ya go,
Let's just stick to scripture. Show me these terms in scripture:
trinity
triune
three-in-one
first person
second person
third person
co-eternal
co-equal

They are not to be found so now what? Do you want to now add extra-Biblical revelations and add words to the Bible? Because that is what you are doing ya know. like “covenental God” where do you find that term? You should really see what a person believes if they use merely the language of the Bible and become aware of the simple way God is explained by Jesus.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,04:42)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2009,15:41) Hi all Shall I go a little further. Most of the feeding of the hungry, the healing of the sick, the feeding the sheep, the providing of shelters, the preaching of the word of God, providing clothing, the leading men to Christ, the taking care of the destitute, lonely, drug attics, alcaholics, sexually abused children, and on and on is done by Trinitarian works and not by those who have seprerated themselves from his people because they do no agree with the Trinity doctrine. Just ask everyone on this sight if it was a Trinitarian ministry that lead them to Jesus and you will see what I mean. Why is it that those who are led to Jesus leave that Jesus to accept another Jesus? WJ EXACTLY! And one of the reasons for this is that God showed Himself the example by coming down to our level and becoming one of us. He became immanent. The God of anti-trinitarians is not immanent. thinker

There ya go again Thinker,

Quote

The God of anti-trinitarians is not immanent.

Another general statement assumed of supposed “anti-trinitarians.” Could you say “some non-trinitarians” maybe that would be more accurate?

Kathi

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,20:48)

Quote (Cindy @ July 30 2009,17:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2009,03:52) Quote (Cindy @ July 26 2009,18:39) It is so easy to understand when you can see that the Word God is a tittle.  God the Father who is above had another name Jehovah God.  And of course Jesus who was the Word who became flesh.  When you see it that way, there is no trinity.  Scripture teaches us so, that the Father is greater then the Son. Jesus own word.  Remember that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.  I say that because some might say that after He died for us, He became equal to the Father. Not according to the Bible. Peace and Love Irene Irene Scriptures teach there is only “One True God” therfore all others are false. So is Jesus a “false god” or is he “True God”?   WJ Our Heavenly Father is above all and I gave Scripture to prove my point.  Jesus is the Son of God, even though in John He is called God and became flesh.  To me it is so easy when you understand what the name God stands for, again a tittle.  Both have other names, don't they?  Jehovah and Y”shua. Peace and Love Irene Irene, Scripture also says that Jesus is “ALL IN ALL.” (Colossians 1) Why do you pick and choose which scriptures you will believe and not believe like Gene? thinker

thinker……..again you misquote It does not say Jesus in all and through all it says (Christ) that is the anointing (which is from GOD the FATHER. It is the anointing of HOLY Spirit that makes us and Jesus in union with the FATHER. It is the same Spirit that was given Jesus, it is the Same Spirit given us also. “let this mind be in you that was (ALSO) in Christ Jesus our lord, and if this mind be in you (IT) shall (ALSO) quicken your Mortal bodies” . As (IT) did HIS thinker.

peace and love to you thinker…………………..gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 30 2009,21:50)

Hi TT, So Jesus is Lord? Lord Jesus has a God[jn20] You cannot set up your own gods.

Yes He has a covenantal relationship with God. I have said this already. But Jesus does not have a Lord or a King over Him for He is Lord and King.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:26)

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,04:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2009,15:41) Hi all Shall I go a little further. Most of the feeding of the hungry, the healing of the sick, the feeding the sheep, the providing of shelters, the preaching of the word of God, providing clothing, the leading men to Christ, the taking care of the destitute, lonely, drug attics, alcaholics, sexually abused children, and on and on is done by Trinitarian works and not by those who have seprerated themselves from his people because they do no agree with the Trinity doctrine. Just ask everyone on this sight if it was a Trinitarian ministry that lead them to Jesus and you will see what I mean. Why is it that those who are led to Jesus leave that Jesus to accept another Jesus? WJ EXACTLY! And one of the reasons for this is that God showed Himself the example by coming down to our level and becoming one of us. He became immanent. The God of anti-trinitarians is not immanent. thinker There ya go again Thinker, Quote The God of anti-trinitarians is not immanent. Another general statement assumed of supposed “anti-trinitarians.”   Could you say “some non-trinitarians” maybe that would be more accurate? Kathi

Kathi,
If you confess that God Himself became flesh then you would believe that He can become immanent and you are the exception to what I said. But if you deny the Christian doctrine of the incarnation of God then stop whining.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 30 2009,22:16)

Quote (thethinker @ July 30 2009,04:39) Lightenup said to WJ: Quote Do you understand that many were in trinitarian churches when they realized that the doctrine wasn't what they felt as Biblical. Kathi, I was led to Christ by two former JW's. It happens both ways. So let's just stick to Scripture. thinker Ok Thinker…there ya go, Let's just stick to scripture.  Show me these terms in scripture: trinity triune three-in-one first person second person third person co-eternal co-equal They are not to be found so now what?  Do you want to now add extra-Biblical revelations and add words to the Bible?  Because that is what you are doing ya know. like “covenental God” where do you find that term?  You should really see what a person believes if they use merely the language of the Bible and become aware of the simple way God is explained by Jesus. Kathi

Kathi,
Neither is it said that God “reproduced.” Yet you infer this. Right?

thinker

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