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Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,01:55) Quote (squirrel @ Aug. 02 2009,03:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,16:41)
How did GOD Himself design that to come about? Well, not by taking one thing and making something completely different. It was by reproduction…fruit from His own body.The above statement by the lady is an example why Paul told women to be quiet
Ok big man called squirrel,
I suppose you think you are smart…please convince us.
Why don't you tell us all what the light of day one is. How about after that tell us all how a virgin conceived. Then you tell us how that which was conceived was the root of David. Then tell us how Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Then tell us all where the terms: triune, trinity, three-in-one, first person, second person, third person, co-eternal, co-equal, and eternal generation is in the Bible….cause you are a big man and I am just a woman, therefore I should keep silent according to you and let the men speak. Have you read some of the things men say here?
Looking forward to all those answers from a real man.
Kathi,
Hebrew 1:10 says that the heavens were created by the Son. To the Son the Father said, “The heavens are the work of your hands.” In Genesis 1 we see that the heavens were created before day one. Therefore, the light of day one is natural daylight as the narrative so plainly says. It is staring you in the face.
thinker
Thinker,
Quote Lightenup said:
Quote
Please show me where “begotten Son” is used as a proper name.Kathi,
What kind of question is this? It is a proper name no matter how Jesus was begotten.Maybe you didn't understand the question. Hebrews chapter 1 speaks of a name that Jesus inherited, what is that name according to your understanding? Then, please show me where that name appears as a name and not as an adjective.
Thanks,
KathiQuote (thethinker @ Aug. 02 2009,10:23) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,01:55) Quote (squirrel @ Aug. 02 2009,03:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,16:41)
How did GOD Himself design that to come about? Well, not by taking one thing and making something completely different. It was by reproduction…fruit from His own body.The above statement by the lady is an example why Paul told women to be quiet
Ok big man called squirrel,
I suppose you think you are smart…please convince us.
Why don't you tell us all what the light of day one is. How about after that tell us all how a virgin conceived. Then you tell us how that which was conceived was the root of David. Then tell us how Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Then tell us all where the terms: triune, trinity, three-in-one, first person, second person, third person, co-eternal, co-equal, and eternal generation is in the Bible….cause you are a big man and I am just a woman, therefore I should keep silent according to you and let the men speak. Have you read some of the things men say here?Looking forward to all those answers from a real man.
Kathi,
Hebrew 1:10 says that the heavens were created by the Son. To the Son the Father said, “The heavens are the work of your hands. In Genesis 1 we see that the heavens were created before day one. Therefore, the light of day one is natural daylight as the narrative so plainly says. It is staring you in the face. thinker
Thinker,
When were the heavens named “heaven” and when were they finished being spread out? Clue: it was AFTER day one.Also, do you think that we get our natural light from the sun? If so, the sun was made AFTER day one, day four to be exact. Therefore it isn't as clear cut as you think, Thinker. Do you ever wonder why light and darkness had to be separated twice during creation week?
Kathi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 01 2009,20:15) Hi WJ,
MONOS does give that meaning but GENES is to do with origins.
UNIQUE is not the complete and accurate meaning.
NHMonos, Strong's G3439 – monogenēs which means…
alone (without a companion), forsaken, destitute of help, alone, only, merely
Implys Unique because he is without a companion, Alone, Only!
Genes, “ginomai”
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
38tn Or “of the unique one.” Although this word is often translated “only begotten,” such a translation is misleading, since in English it appears to express a metaphysical relationship. The word in Greek was used of an only child (a son [Luke 7:12, 9:38] or a daughter [Luke 8:42]). It was also used of something unique (only one of its kind) such as the mythological Phoenix (1 Clem. 25:2). From here it passes easily to a description of Isaac (Heb 11:17 and Josephus, Ant., 1.13.1 [1.222]) who was not Abraham’s only son, but was one-of-a-kind because he was the child of the promise. Thus the word means “one-of-a-kind” and is reserved for Jesus in the Johannine literature of the NT. While all Christians are children of God, Jesus is God’s Son in a unique, one-of-a-kind sense. The word is used in this way in all its uses in the Gospel of John (1:14, 1:18, 3:16, and 3:18). Source
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2009,14:08) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 02 2009,10:23) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,01:55) Quote (squirrel @ Aug. 02 2009,03:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,16:41)
How did GOD Himself design that to come about? Well, not by taking one thing and making something completely different. It was by reproduction…fruit from His own body.The above statement by the lady is an example why Paul told women to be quiet
Ok big man called squirrel,
I suppose you think you are smart…please convince us.
Why don't you tell us all what the light of day one is. How about after that tell us all how a virgin conceived. Then you tell us how that which was conceived was the root of David. Then tell us how Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Then tell us all where the terms: triune, trinity, three-in-one, first person, second person, third person, co-eternal, co-equal, and eternal generation is in the Bible….cause you are a big man and I am just a woman, therefore I should keep silent according to you and let the men speak. Have you read some of the things men say here?Looking forward to all those answers from a real man.
Kathi,
Hebrew 1:10 says that the heavens were created by the Son. To the Son the Father said, “The heavens are the work of your hands. In Genesis 1 we see that the heavens were created before day one. Therefore, the light of day one is natural daylight as the narrative so plainly says. It is staring you in the face. thinker
Thinker,
When were the heavens named “heaven” and when were they finished being spread out? Clue: it was AFTER day one.Also, do you think that we get our natural light from the sun? If so, the sun was made AFTER day one, day four to be exact. Therefore it isn't as clear cut as you think, Thinker. Do you ever wonder why light and darkness had to be separated twice during creation week?
Kathi
Hi KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2009,14:08) Thinker,
When were the heavens named “heaven” and when were they finished being spread out? Clue: it was AFTER day one.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was* formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1:2The heavens and the earth and the waters were already in existence without light and the stars and moon on the first day!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,01:45) Hi WJ,
So coming into existence is associated with that uniqueness.
NHThe Word that was with God and was God took on the likeness of sinful flesh and tabernacled among us.
His coming into existence as a man makes him the Only Unique One!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,06:08) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 02 2009,10:23) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2009,01:55) Quote (squirrel @ Aug. 02 2009,03:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2009,16:41)
How did GOD Himself design that to come about? Well, not by taking one thing and making something completely different. It was by reproduction…fruit from His own body.The above statement by the lady is an example why Paul told women to be quiet
Ok big man called squirrel,
I suppose you think you are smart…please convince us.
Why don't you tell us all what the light of day one is. How about after that tell us all how a virgin conceived. Then you tell us how that which was conceived was the root of David. Then tell us how Jesus is both fully God and fully man. Then tell us all where the terms: triune, trinity, three-in-one, first person, second person, third person, co-eternal, co-equal, and eternal generation is in the Bible….cause you are a big man and I am just a woman, therefore I should keep silent according to you and let the men speak. Have you read some of the things men say here?Looking forward to all those answers from a real man.
Kathi,
Hebrew 1:10 says that the heavens were created by the Son. To the Son the Father said, “The heavens are the work of your hands. In Genesis 1 we see that the heavens were created before day one. Therefore, the light of day one is natural daylight as the narrative so plainly says. It is staring you in the face. thinker
Thinker,
When were the heavens named “heaven” and when were they finished being spread out? Clue: it was AFTER day one.Also, do you think that we get our natural light from the sun? If so, the sun was made AFTER day one, day four to be exact. Therefore it isn't as clear cut as you think, Thinker. Do you ever wonder why light and darkness had to be separated twice during creation week?
Kathi
Kathi,
Natural daylight existed BEFORE the sun was created. God called the light He had made “daylight.” He called the darkness “night.” If the “daylight” was the Son then was the “darkness” the devil? You have no evidence whatsoever that the “light” that was made on day one was Christ. Hebrews 1 explicitly says that the Son created the heavens. It appears as if the heavens were created complete at the very beginning with only the earth being incomplete.You should not pass off as fact a conclusion that has no evidence.
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,02:17) Hi WJ,
Does scripture agree with this interpretation in view of Hebrews 11.17?
He is the Son of God.
NHOf course it does.
Isaac though he was not the “Only Son”, he was the “Monogenes” Only Unique One” because he was the child of the promise through his miraculous conception.
If what you are implying is true then every one who has sons should be “Monogenes”, but you will not find that in scriptures will you NH?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,02:17) Hi WJ,
Does scripture agree with this interpretation in view of Hebrews 11.17?
He is the Son of God.
NHOf course it does.
Isaac though he was not the “Only Son”, he was the “Monogenes” Only Unique One” because he was the child of the promise through his miraculous conception.
If what you are implying is true then every one who has sons should be “Monogenes”, but you will not find that in scriptures will you NH?
WJ
WJ,
Isaac was the “only begotten” of Abraham by decree. Abraham had two sons. The decree concerning Isaac was not fulfilled in real time until Ishmael was cast out of the covenant. It was after Ishmael was cast out that God called Isaac Abraham's “only son.”The Word was not the Son until the decree came to David as recorded in Psalm 2:7. So Jesus was indeed the “begotten Son” before His exaltation: But only by decree. That decree was fulfilled in real time when Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. The Scriptures are VERY clear that Jesus actually became the “begotten Son” at His exaltation. This is conclusive because He was “lower than the angels” before His exaltation. He obtained the name “begotten Son” when He was made superior to the angels which was at His exaltation. Kathi's view infers that Jesus was never at any time lower than the angels.
Our adoption as sons is an illustration this principle. 1 John 3 says, “NOW are we called the sons of God.” Yet we are not actually adopted until the redemption of our bodies. Paul explicitly said that we are “eagerly waithing for the adoption” (Rom. 8).
thinker
WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:
Quote The heavens and the earth and the waters were already in existence without light and the stars and moon on the first day! WJ,
Yes! It is clear. The Father credited the Son with the creation of the heavens. The heavens were in existence without “light” on the first day. Therefore, the introduction of “light” cannot be the introduction of the Son. Kathi once said that she would need “compelling evidence” before she would change her mind. That evidence has been presented. I am afraid that she was really guising the fact that she has no intentions of changing. By her highly active imagination she has proven over and over again that she is not teachable. She is very creative and always finds a way to explain away the facts. Though she is far more intelligent than most of the men on this board she is nevertheless dead wrong.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,11:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,02:17) Hi WJ,
Does scripture agree with this interpretation in view of Hebrews 11.17?
He is the Son of God.
NHOf course it does.
Isaac though he was not the “Only Son”, he was the “Monogenes” Only Unique One” because he was the child of the promise through his miraculous conception.
If what you are implying is true then every one who has sons should be “Monogenes”, but you will not find that in scriptures will you NH?
WJ
WJ,
Isaac was the “only begotten” of Abraham by decree. Abraham had two sons. The decree concerning Isaac was not fulfilled in real time until Ishmael was cast out of the covenant. It was after Ishmael was cast out that God called Isaac Abraham's “only son.”The Word was not the Son until the decree came to David as recorded in Psalm 2:7. So Jesus was indeed the “begotten Son” before His exaltation: But only by decree. That decree was fulfilled in real time when Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. The Scriptures are VERY clear that Jesus actually became the “begotten Son” at His exaltation. This is conclusive because He was “lower than the angels” before His exaltation. He obtained the name “begotten Son” when He was made superior to the angels which was at His exaltation. Kathi's view infers that Jesus was never at any time lower than the angels.
Our adoption as sons is an illustration this principle. 1 John 3 says, “NOW are we called the sons of God.” Yet we are not actually adopted until the redemption of our bodies. Paul explicitly said that we are “eagerly waithing for the adoption” (Rom. 8).
thinker
Hi JackI believe the term begotten is misleading for it implys that Jesus as a Son was born. For the word Monogenes is not the same as the word “gennaō” which is translated “Begat” and means “Born”.
Monogenes is not the same for it does not mean “Born” but “Only One or Unique One”.
In the english language the word “Begotten” is a past participle of beget.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:58) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,11:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,02:17) Hi WJ,
Does scripture agree with this interpretation in view of Hebrews 11.17?
He is the Son of God.
NHOf course it does.
Isaac though he was not the “Only Son”, he was the “Monogenes” Only Unique One” because he was the child of the promise through his miraculous conception.
If what you are implying is true then every one who has sons should be “Monogenes”, but you will not find that in scriptures will you NH?
WJ
WJ,
Isaac was the “only begotten” of Abraham by decree. Abraham had two sons. The decree concerning Isaac was not fulfilled in real time until Ishmael was cast out of the covenant. It was after Ishmael was cast out that God called Isaac Abraham's “only son.”The Word was not the Son until the decree came to David as recorded in Psalm 2:7. So Jesus was indeed the “begotten Son” before His exaltation: But only by decree. That decree was fulfilled in real time when Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. The Scriptures are VERY clear that Jesus actually became the “begotten Son” at His exaltation. This is conclusive because He was “lower than the angels” before His exaltation. He obtained the name “begotten Son” when He was made superior to the angels which was at His exaltation. Kathi's view infers that Jesus was never at any time lower than the angels.
Our adoption as sons is an illustration this principle. 1 John 3 says, “NOW are we called the sons of God.” Yet we are not actually adopted until the redemption of our bodies. Paul explicitly said that we are “eagerly waithing for the adoption” (Rom. 8).
thinker
Hi JackI believe the term begotten is misleading for it implys that Jesus as a Son was born. For the word Monogenes is not the same as the word “gennaō” which is translated “Begat” and means “Born”.
Monogenes is not the same for it does not mean “Born” but “Only One or Unique One”.
In the english language the word “Begotten” is a past participle of beget.
WJ
WJ,
You know that I don't hold to Kathi's view of monogenes. There is more than one way to be begotten.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 27 2009,05:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2009,02:15) Quote (thethinker @ July 25 2009,04:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ July 25 2009,17:50) “Fully” God, “fully” man. Words have completely lost their meaning!
Jehovah said “I will become who I am becoming”, Exodus 3:14.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Jehovah had become a fire in the midst of a burning bush when He said this. If He can do this, then He may certainly become something made in His own image. He is immanent!
Anti-trinitarianism's major flaw is that it holds that God is so transcendent that He cannot become immanent. God could not become a man so He had to send a man. This implies that God Himself cannot know first hand how we feel.
thinker
Hi JackVery true. God can take on any form that he chooses and become what ever he wants.
This is why he is God, because he says there is 'nothing to hard” for him, and 'he can do all things'.
Anti-trinitarians limit God to not being able to come in the flesh and live as a man and yet still be God.
After all men are not just flesh. We are also Spirit beings who live in a body.
The Word who was God “tabernacled” among us and we beheld his Glory.
God was in the flesh reconciling the world unto himself.
Blessings WJ
WJ,
Anti-trinitarians begin with the presupposition that God is totally other than man. But this is not true. Man is in the image of God. Therefore, God may become that which is His own image.thinker
thinker……….”God is not a (MAN) that He should Lie or a Son of (MAN) that He should repent”. Now with that TRUTH , if Jesus was a (MAN) then He could (NOT) BE GOD> That does not mean that GOD WAS NOT (IN) HIM. GOD is SPIRIT and CAN be (IN) ALL and through ALL, but that does (NOT) make anyone He is IN and working through a GOD. GOD PLAINLY SAID YOU SHALL HAVE (NO) OTHER GOD BESIDES ME. Mow what part of that do you deluded trinitarians (NOT) UNDERSTAND?.peace and love…………gene
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,12:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:58) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 03 2009,11:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 04 2009,03:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,02:17) Hi WJ,
Does scripture agree with this interpretation in view of Hebrews 11.17?
He is the Son of God.
NHOf course it does.
Isaac though he was not the “Only Son”, he was the “Monogenes” Only Unique One” because he was the child of the promise through his miraculous conception.
If what you are implying is true then every one who has sons should be “Monogenes”, but you will not find that in scriptures will you NH?
WJ
WJ,
Isaac was the “only begotten” of Abraham by decree. Abraham had two sons. The decree concerning Isaac was not fulfilled in real time until Ishmael was cast out of the covenant. It was after Ishmael was cast out that God called Isaac Abraham's “only son.”The Word was not the Son until the decree came to David as recorded in Psalm 2:7. So Jesus was indeed the “begotten Son” before His exaltation: But only by decree. That decree was fulfilled in real time when Jesus was exalted to God's right hand. The Scriptures are VERY clear that Jesus actually became the “begotten Son” at His exaltation. This is conclusive because He was “lower than the angels” before His exaltation. He obtained the name “begotten Son” when He was made superior to the angels which was at His exaltation. Kathi's view infers that Jesus was never at any time lower than the angels.
Our adoption as sons is an illustration this principle. 1 John 3 says, “NOW are we called the sons of God.” Yet we are not actually adopted until the redemption of our bodies. Paul explicitly said that we are “eagerly waithing for the adoption” (Rom. 8).
thinker
Hi JackI believe the term begotten is misleading for it implys that Jesus as a Son was born. For the word Monogenes is not the same as the word “gennaō” which is translated “Begat” and means “Born”.
Monogenes is not the same for it does not mean “Born” but “Only One or Unique One”.
In the english language the word “Begotten” is a past participle of beget.
WJ
WJ,
You know that I don't hold to Kathi's view of monogenes. There is more than one way to be begotten.thinker
Hi JackI know that you do not hold to Kathi's belief, but is there more than one way for Jesus to be born?
Truly Jesus is declared to be the “Only Son” as most tranlsations render Monogenes, but the term begootten is misleading IMO!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,15:04) Hi WJ,
So his conception relates to the use of MONOGENES?
It does relate to UNIQUE ORIGINS then?
NHYes, but his Unique origin begins after he came in the flesh John 1:14, 18.
WJ
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