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TO ALL:
Our anti-trinitarian brothers and sisters correctly say that the God the Father is to receive the glory from men. A man must confess Jesus Christ as Lord “to the glory of God the Father.” This is not a problem for the trinitarian. But the scripture is replete with statements which say that Christ is to receive the glory too.
Hebrews 13:20-21 (Young's Literal Translation)
“And the God of the peace, who did bring up out of the dead the great shepherd of the sheep — in the blood of an age-during covenant — our Lord Jesus, make you perfect in every good work to do His will, doing in you that which is well-pleasing before Him, through Jesus Christ, to whom [is] the glory — to the ages of the ages! Amen.”2 Timothy 4:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
“…and the Lord shall free me from every evil work, and shall save [me] — to his heavenly kingdom; to whom [is] the glory to the ages of the ages! Amen.” (the “Lord” is Jesus Christ, vs. 1)2 Peter 3:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
“…and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him [is] the glory both now, and to the day of the age! Amen.”Okay, these scriptures clearly assert that Jesus Christ is to receive the glory. Each passage says that Jesus Christ is to receive the glory “forever and ever.” The last one in 2 Peter says “both NOW and forever and ever.”
I have an interesting observation to bring to your attention. The Hebrews 13:20-21 passage says that it is God that raised Jesus from the dead and Who makes us perfect. Yet Christ receives the glory. It says that God raised Jesus from the dead and also perfects us through Jesus Christ. Hmmmm…. Could it be that Christ's receiving the glory in reference to His ressurrection is an implication that He Himself participated in His resurrection? Why would Jesus share the glory regarding His resurrection if He did not participate in it? It says that God raised Jesus from the dead “THROUGH Jesus Christ to whom is the glory”. Jesus said that He would raise up His body (John 2:19-22). The same thing goes with our being made perfect. It says that God makes us perfect THROUGH Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:14 says it is Christ that perfects us.
THEREFORE: GOD'S WORK “THROUGH” JESUS CHRIST MUST MEAN THROUGH THE OPERATION OF JESUS CHRIST THUS ESTABLISHING THEIR ONENESS!
Attn: Jodi Lee:
You do not need to invoke scriptures which say that the Father receives the glory. Trinitarians confess this. What is being asked of all of you is that you allow these passages to speak for themselves without pitting the Father against His beloved Son.These passages present quite a conundrum for you guys and gals.
thinker
Hi TT,
Jesus is the son of God.
His body's work is to his glory.
His servanthood towards God is perfect.Quote These passages present quite a conundrum for you guys and gals. –The Thinker.
The Thinker,
Perhaps I missed it, but you forgot to state what the “conundrum” is. I don't seem to see it.
Is it this thing in bold:
Quote THEREFORE: GOD'S WORK “THROUGH” JESUS CHRIST MUST MEAN THROUGH THE OPERATION OF JESUS CHRIST THUS ESTABLISHING THEIR ONENESS! Yes, Jesus is central to our salvation. God used Jesus as the instrument of our salvation. That is why, for example, the scriptures speak of God as being our savior “through Jesus.”
Thus, they can both be spoken of as being a savior. God gave his son to us, saving us. Jesus gave his life for us, saving us. It was 'through' Jesus that God acted as a savior.And again, you spend a lot of time speaking of Jesus' glory, as though we didn't believe Jesus had or has glory.
“Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (Joh 17:5)
If there's anyone who doesn't think Jesus deserves glory or has glory, please put up your hand, I'll wait……
Nope, no one disagrees with you on that. (I guess stu would.)
Quote (david @ Sep. 07 2009,10:45) Quote These passages present quite a conundrum for you guys and gals. –The Thinker.
The Thinker,
Perhaps I missed it, but you forgot to state what the “conundrum” is. I don't seem to see it.
Is it this thing in bold:
Quote THEREFORE: GOD'S WORK “THROUGH” JESUS CHRIST MUST MEAN THROUGH THE OPERATION OF JESUS CHRIST THUS ESTABLISHING THEIR ONENESS! Yes, Jesus is central to our salvation. God used Jesus as the instrument of our salvation. That is why, for example, the scriptures speak of God as being our savior “through Jesus.”
Thus, they can both be spoken of as being a savior. God gave his son to us, saving us. Jesus gave his life for us, saving us. It was 'through' Jesus that God acted as a savior.And again, you spend a lot of time speaking of Jesus' glory, as though we didn't believe Jesus had or has glory.
“Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.” (Joh 17:5)
If there's anyone who doesn't think Jesus deserves glory or has glory, please put up your hand, I'll wait……
Nope, no one disagrees with you on that. (I guess stu would.)
David,
You said that it was “through Jesus that God acted as a Savior.” You did NOT say that Jesus IS the Savior. The passages I offered say, “to Jesus Christ be THE glory.”You said that Jesus has glory. Does Jesus having glory mean “to Him be THE glory?”
Where do you stand?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 09 2009,07:34) Hi TT,
Why would you argue with Paul whose servanthood is not in doubt?
Did you not think Jesus submitted to God?
The apostles said “to Christ be THE glory for ever and ever.” They said also “to the Father be THE glory for ever and ever.” Equal glory implies equality.The servant is not necessarily lesser because he is a servant. If this was the case then Christ is lesser than the Jews for Paul said He is the servant of the circumcision (Romans 15:8). Are missionaries who serve in third world countries lesser than the people to which they are servants?
“To Christ be THE glory both NOW and forever.”
thinker
Hi TT,
Even the Sun, moon and stars have their own glory[1Cor15]
Where does God say he will share His glory with another?-He doesn't.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 09 2009,07:58) Hi TT,
Even the Sun, moon and stars have their own glory[1Cor15]
Where does God say he will share His glory with another?-He doesn't.
And Christ has His own glory which is the glory of God.thinker
Hi TT,
So the glory of the Sun moon and stars[1Cor 15] is too?
You have to lay your own foundations when scripture is not helpful?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 13 2009,06:15) Hi TT,
So the glory of the Sun moon and stars[1Cor 15] is too?
You have to lay your own foundations when scripture is not helpful?
So how do you apply Peter's statement “to Him [Jesus Christ] be the glory both now and forever?”How do you apply this?
thinker
Hi TT,
Why should the faithful son not have glory?
He asked for that glory and deserved it.2PETER 3 .18
To HIM be the Glory.Who is the HIM referred to?
Compare Jude 25Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 07 2009,07:17) TO ALL: Our anti-trinitarian brothers and sisters correctly say that the God the Father is to receive the glory from men. A man must confess Jesus Christ as Lord “to the glory of God the Father.” This is not a problem for the trinitarian. But the scripture is replete with statements which say that Christ is to receive the glory too.
Thinker……. On the one hand you say Jesus to the GLORY of The Father, then you spend the rest of you time taring down this and giving (ALL) the GLORY to JESUS. You remind me of this…Luk 11:27…> And it came to pass as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up he voice and said into him , Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou sucked. …28…> But he said , Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of GOD, and KEEP it.Now go figure that out and you might get the balance. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 14 2009,04:26) Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 07 2009,07:17) TO ALL: Our anti-trinitarian brothers and sisters correctly say that the God the Father is to receive the glory from men. A man must confess Jesus Christ as Lord “to the glory of God the Father.” This is not a problem for the trinitarian. But the scripture is replete with statements which say that Christ is to receive the glory too.
Thinker……. On the one hand you say Jesus to the GLORY of The Father, then you spend the rest of you time taring down this and giving (ALL) the GLORY to JESUS. You remind me of this…Luk 11:27…> And it came to pass as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up he voice and said into him , Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou sucked. …28…> But he said , Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of GOD, and KEEP it.Now go figure that out and you might get the balance. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
Gene,
Why would discuss the Father's glory when you already believe that? You deny Christ's glory and this is why i need to talk about it so much.“…and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him [is] the glory both now, and to the day of the age! Amen.”
It clearly says that to “Him” (Jesus Christ) is the glory both now and forever. Had you been there when they crucified Him would you have driven in the first nail? I really wonder about you.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 13 2009,10:00) Hi TT,
Why should the faithful son not have glory?
He asked for that glory and deserved it.2PETER 3 .18
To HIM be the Glory.Who is the HIM referred to?
Compare Jude 25
Exactly! The faithful Son should have glory. At least you're better off than Gene. But note that it says that to Him be “THE glory.” The same wording is used of the Father. To the Father be THE glory.There is no difference in kind or in degree. Both the Father and the Son receive “THE glory!”
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 14 2009,06:38) Hi TT,
So the Son is not God.
He has his own glory.
Or you have two gods?
You do not deny that the Son receives EQUAL glory with His Father? Do I understand you correctly?thinker
Hi TT,
Equal??
As t8 said if he is equal to God he is not God.
You do claim two gods..or is it three?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 14 2009,07:23) Hi TT,
Equal??
As t8 said if he is equal to God he is not God.
You do claim two gods..or is it three?
Now t8 is your authority? You don't practice what you preach!thinker
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