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Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,11:59) Mike, Quote Kathi, what are your thoughts about the “sons of God” mentioned in Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, and Gen 6:4? Do YOU think they are angels? Well, I believe they were heavenly created beings who do not call God their 'Father.'
Kathi
And by “heavenly created beings” you mean “angels”, right?
Uh oh Keith!
And how do YOU know they don't call their Creator their “Father”, like we all do? If they are called SONS of God, then chances are that those SONS have a FATHER, right?
Mike,
He often says that 'like begets like.' I do think that it is linguistics of words like 'one being' and misunderstanding of what 'oneness' is that causes part of the problem here. Btw, thanks for capitalizing the 'G.'
Kathi
Mike,
I suspect they are the created angels because non-heavenly beings were not created till days after the foundation of the earth was founded. Scripture does not make that clear though. Also, scripture does not show evidence that the angels ever call Jehovah by the name 'Father.' They refer to Him as Jehovah mostly, as I understand it.Do you know that the angels will be judged by the saints?
1 Cor 6:3a Do you not know that we will judge angels?
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,12:20) Mike,
He often says that 'like begets like.' I do think that it is linguistics of words like 'one being' and misunderstanding of what 'oneness' is that causes part of the problem here. Btw, thanks for capitalizing the 'G.' Kathi
The difference between you and Keith, as I see it, is that you are bold enough to admit you have TWO Gods that you worship.Keith also worships TWO Gods. But he confusingly tries to maintain that he worships TWO PERSONS within a Godhead.
The conclusion is the same for both of you, for you both end up worshipping TWO completely different Gods – one of them named Jesus, the other Jehovah.
(Which makes me wonder, if you think the Son and the Father TOGETHER make up “Jehovah”, then why is it that the Son has the personal name “Jesus”, but the Father's personal name is simply “the Father”? Why does one have a NAME, and the other only a title?
)Anyway, I admire the fact that you are bold enough to declare your worship of TWO Gods, AGAINST ALL SCRIPTURAL TEACHINGS. I only wish Keith would follow suit, since it's no secret that, under the mask of the trinity, he is doing the same exact thing as you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,12:26)
Mike,
I suspect they are the created angels because non-heavenly beings were not created till days after the foundation of the earth was founded. Scripture does not make that clear though.
Well, who else would it be, Kathi? You yourself have scripturally made clear what you say scripture doesn't make clear.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,12:26)
Also, scripture does not show evidence that the angels ever call Jehovah by the name 'Father.' They refer to Him as Jehovah mostly, as I understand it.
If someone is the SON of the President, then isn't the President that one's FATHER?If someone is the SON of the King, then isn't the King that one's FATHER?
If someone is the SON of God, then isn't God that one's FATHER?
Think it out, Kathi.
Mike,
you are confused if this is what you think that I believe.you said:
Quote The conclusion is the same for both of you, for you both end up worshipping TWO completely different Gods – one of them named Jesus, the other Jehovah. The Father and the Son have many names applied to them. The Father and Son both go by the name of their unity…Jehovah and many other names that one or both have like:
ELOHIM……Genesis 1:1, Psalm 19:1
meaning “God”, a reference to God's power and might.
ADONAI……Malachi 1:6
meaning “Lord”, a reference to the Lordship of God.
JEHOVAH–YAHWEH…..Genesis 2:4
a reference to God's divine salvation.
JEHOVAH-MACCADDESHEM…….Exodus 31:13
meaning “The Lord thy sanctifier”
JEHOVAH-ROHI……Psalm 23:1
meaning “The Lord my shepherd”
JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH…….Ezekiel 48:35
meaning “The Lord who is present”
JEHOVAH-RAPHA………Exodus 15:26
meaning “The Lord our healer”
JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU……Jeremiah 23:6
meaning “The Lord our righteousness”
JEHOVAH-JIREH………Genesis 22:13-14
meaning “The Lord will provide”
JEHOVAH-NISSI………Exodus 17:15
meaning “The Lord our banner”
JEHOVAH-SHALOM……..Judges 6:24
meaning “The Lord is peace”
JEHOVAH-SABBAOTH……Isaiah 6:1-3
meaning “The Lord of Hosts”
JEHOVAH-GMOLAH……..Jeremiah 51:6
meaning “The God of Recompense”
EL-ELYON…………..Genesis 14:17-20,Isaiah 14:13-14
meaning “The most high God
EL-ROI…………….Genesis 16:13
meaning “The strong one who sees”
EL-SHADDAI…………Genesis 17:1,Psalm 91:1
meaning “The God of the mountains or God Almighty”
EL-OLAM……………Isaiah 40:28-31
meaning “The everlasting God”I believe they are two distinct Gods but identical in nature and together in their governing over us and love for us. They never act independently of the other. The right hand always knows what the left hand is doing and visa versa, so to speak, and they are in agreement and alike in wisdom and power and much more.
You say that I worship two Gods but I see them as one unified God called Jehovah as I believe the scriptures speak of Jehovah being both the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
Kathi
Mike,
If someone is said to be the 'son' of the creator, then the creator is a father in the sense of being their creator but not in the sense that they share in the same identical nature, like in the case of the only begotten Son who would not be one who was created but instead begotten.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2011,13:19) Mike,
If someone is said to be the 'son' of the creator, then the creator is a father in the sense of being their creator but not in the sense that they share in the same identical nature, like in the case of the only begotten Son who would not be one who was created but instead begotten.Kathi
Kathiwhen a king has a son is this son different as per the sons born in his kingdom ?
even dough they all are born out of a women ,what make them different ,?
is it not who their father is ?
but that does not make the son of the king the father or share his kingdom ,
this is some thing that the son as to earn in time and learn knowledge,and wisdom to rule in the future the kingdom of the father when the father past away,right ?
but in the case of God the father will never die and so the son will remain under the supreme God his father for ever,
there is only one God who rules all of creation ,and only one son that as received supremacy over all his father creation ,because he is the son of God ,but not God
amen
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,13:15)
I believe they are two distinct Gods………..
I know. That's what I keep saying. But for some reason, you keep playing word games to make it seem like I'm not telling it like it is.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,13:15)
You say that I worship two Gods but I see them as one unified God called Jehovah
Don't you mean that you see “HIM” as one unified God? Kathi, if we change your word “compound unity” to “Godhead”, how are you not doing exactly what the trinni's do? You admit that you have TWO Gods, but then say you worship only the ONE “unity” of the TWO of them? It's Trinitarianism – Lightenup style! Face it, if you HAVE two Gods, and both of them get worshipped by you, then you worship TWO Gods – plain and simple. Don't start trying to hide behind confusion like Keith does. Especially after all the kudos I've been giving you for having the guts to declare plainly and boldly that you have TWO Gods that you worship……………AGAINST ALL SCRIPTURAL TEACHING.
Btw, what is the Father's personal, individual name? Not TITLE, but personal NAME. We know the Son's NAME is “Jesus”, and according to you, together they make up a compound untity with the NAME “Jehovah”………….but what is the individual NAME of the Father?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,13:19) Mike,
If someone is said to be the 'son' of the creator, then the creator is a father in the sense of being their creator but not in the sense that they share in the same identical nature, like in the case of the only begotten Son who would not be one who was created but instead begotten.Kathi
I will take that as, “Yes Mike. If the angels are called SONS of God, then God is their FATHER.”So……………..Keith and Jack's foundation built on angels not being sons of God and God not being their Father has sunk into the shifting sand it was built on, eh?
Good then. All is well.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,11:56) Mike,
You ought to read what you wrote in this quote:Quote And Kathi likes to ignore the fact that if there were more than one “God kind” of spirit being, then we would have more than one God. I don't think Keith is willing to be as brave as you, Kathi. You are okay with openly declaring your worship of TWO different Gods.
In one sentence you say I ignore the fact and in the next you say I openly declare it.
Kathi,My apologies. It is taking a while for your open declaration that you have and worship TWO Gods to fully sink into my brain. I will amend my statement as follows:
And Kathi EMBRACES the false idea that there are more than one “God kind” of spirit being, and therefore more than one God.
I don't think Keith is willing to be as brave as you, Kathi. You are okay with openly declaring your worship of TWO different Gods……………he is not yet that bold.
Sorry for any confusion I might have caused to anyone who wasn't completely aware that Kathi acknowledges and worships TWO Gods.
Kathi! These are all Scriptures that proof that the LORD who you agree is Jehovah, is one LORD (Jehovah) and not a unity with our Heavenly Father and His Son….
Ex. 8:10 “… know that there is none like unto the LORD (Jehovah) God.”
Deut. 4:35”…know that the LORD (Jehovah) he is God, there is none else beside him”.
Is. 40:13 “Who has directed the spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?”
v. 25 “ To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? Saith the Holy One “.
Is. 45:18 “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”
Is. 46:9 “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, there is none like me.”
Mark 12:32“…well, Master, thou has said the truth, for there is one God and there is none other but he.”
1 Cor. 8:4 “… and that there is none other God but one”.
v. 5 “ For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many “.)
v. 6 “ But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him”.Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehvah, and rejoice before him.
Why is it that we have so many clear scriptures that teach us there is only one God? And why are there no scriptures that clearly show God is a trinity? Because there are none, God is not the author of confusion.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Compound unities are referred to by the singular pronoun and can have a name by which they are called. That is what Jehovah is, the name of the compound unity. You admit that Jesus was with the Father at creation and even put up Isaiah 45:18:
Is. 45:18 “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”It is easy to see there are two who are Jehovah. You admit that there were two who created yet you are unwilling to accept the Son and Father together as Jehovah. With all the times that Jesus is called Lord in the NT, you still cannot quite embrace the fact that He really is the Lord of all and our one Lord and master and the Lord of lords. The truth will set you free!
Kathi
Mike,
Quote And Kathi EMBRACES the false idea that there are more than one “God kind” of spirit being, and therefore more than one God. I am not embracing any false idea…I am embracing the truth of what the begotten God means. How can God beget God and there only be one God?
Kathi
EXACTLY KATHI! By golly, I think you've got it!
Can God Most High beget “God Most High” and there be only ONE God Most High? NO!
But can God Most High beget “a god”, who is mighty but not THE Most High God, and there still be only one God Most High? YES! In fact, that Most High God would then become the God OF other gods, wouldn't He?
Now, which one fits better with the scriptures? That we have TWO Gods Most High? Or that we have only ONE God Most High who is called “the God OF gods”, and who begot a Son that is also called by the title “god”?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,18:44) It is easy to see there are two who are Jehovah.
Kathi,Why not address this scripture that Irene quoted:
Isaiah 40:25
“To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?” says the Holy One.You have explained how one of the two in our “compound unity God” is higher than the other one. Which one is asking who his equal is?
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2011,15:07) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 13 2011,02:45) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 12 2011,10:10) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Aug. 11 2011,20:25) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 11 2011,14:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2011,12:35) Irene,
What is a half trinity??
Kathi! Look at what you believe??? You say Jehovah God is both Jesus and Almighty God, so Keith and Jack both agree with you…. It is because they believe in the trinity. The only thing you don't believe is that the Holy Spirit of God is not the third of Jehovah, but is the Spirit of God….that makes it a half trinity…my saying….not according to any Scriptures, just like you do with Jehovah….Irene
Looking for that blessed hope the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.It's as plain as the nose on Georg's face.
Jack
Hi Jack,Does the word “AND” in that verses somehow elude you?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,This too has been explained a gazillion, zillion, trillion, billion, million times.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=2407
So the question is does truth elude you.
KJ
Hi Jack,Here are three occurrences of virtually the same wording from Titus, I assume
that you believe the first two occurrences mentioned are God (YHVH) and Jesus.
Yet (virtually), the same wording in the third occurrence (according to Jack-a-roo)
is now asserted to be only Jesus; can you explain how you account for this shift?Paul, a servant of God, AND an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith
of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (Titus 1:1)To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace,
from God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. (Titus 1:4)Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing
of the great God AND our Savior Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:13)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Bump for both Jack and KiethQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2011,11:44) Irene,
Compound unities are referred to by the singular pronoun and can have a name by which they are called. That is what Jehovah is, the name of the compound unity. You admit that Jesus was with the Father at creation and even put up Isaiah 45:18:
Is. 45:18 “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.”It is easy to see there are two who are Jehovah. You admit that there were two who created yet you are unwilling to accept the Son and Father together as Jehovah. With all the times that Jesus is called Lord in the NT, you still cannot quite embrace the fact that He really is the Lord of all and our one Lord and master and the Lord of lords. The truth will set you free!
Kathi
Kathi! Just like always YOU ignore all those Scriptures I gave…. LORD our Heavenly Fathers name ALON, ALONE is His name Jehovah…. Their unity is their believe .. in fact Jesus saidJhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
How can you even say that they use the same name when Scriptures clearly say it is the God on highs name alone….
. One day you too will have that.believe that….what you are saying is not according to Scriptures….
I am slowly coming to the conclusion that you will not see it now….
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 13 2011,23:11) Keith,
Mike seems to like to ignore that there are different kinds of spirit beings…there is the God kind and there is the angelic kind. If we clarify the spirit beings as the God spirit being kind and the angelic spirit being kind then he would have a more difficult time pushing his ideas, imo.Kathi
KathiI agree!
Mikes theology is wacked and changes all the time. Just like when he used to argue that the word firstborn always had the default meaning “literrally born” unless the context dictated differently. So his argument was in context Jesus was “litterally born” from the Father and had a beginning as such.
Now however he is making the argument that “First born” or “begotten” does not mean lterrally born after its own kind as a a human being born as a human except now Jesus is a creature because he is the first born “OF” all creation instead of firstborn “over” creation.
So in other words Jesus is of the “creation kind” but when it comes to being the “Only Begotten Son” it doesn't mean he is of the Godkind. His bias and use of particular scriptures is obvious and are not consistent with context or the truth.
Confusing indeed.
WJ
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