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Mike,
Quote Titus 2:13 might be calling Jesus “mighty god” and it might not be. If it is, then it is simply a fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6, and therefore not a trinity proof, right? If it is not calling Jesus “mighty god”, then it's still not a trinity proof, right? Calling Jesus 'mighty God' has meaning, it isn't just a name to say He was called that and satisfy scripture. He is called 'mighty God' because He was and is.
Look at this verse now…
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.Let's put this into an equation:
True God and eternal life = knowing the Father + being in His SonTake one person away from the right side of the equation and you do not have what is on the left. You need both and we need the Spirit to be in His Son.
Love to you,
KathiQuote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2011,09:04) Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) How many Saviors do you have? Let me answer your own question.
You have three according to your doctrine.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Not true, because the difference is Trinitarians believe “They are our theos/god” and “They are our Saviour” because you cannot have the “One” without the other, for they are “One”.But your theology says “I have 2 theos/gods and 2 saviours (or many saviours) for with your own mouth you said…
Wrong WJ. Back to the drawing board please.You believe God is three persons, and if each is the saviour, then 3 persons are the saviour.
See not so hard was it.
Perhaps you are now confused about how your doctrine works.
It amazes me how some people really try hard to change truth into their own understanding.
Whatever happened to just reading scripture and believing it.
Having to apply a doctrine to all scripture, is as good as not having scripture as your base understanding.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,23:15) Mike, Quote Titus 2:13 might be calling Jesus “mighty god” and it might not be. If it is, then it is simply a fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6, and therefore not a trinity proof, right? If it is not calling Jesus “mighty god”, then it's still not a trinity proof, right? Calling Jesus 'mighty God' has meaning, it isn't just a name to say He was called that and satisfy scripture. He is called 'mighty God' because He was and is.
Look at this verse now…
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.Let's put this into an equation:
True God and eternal life = knowing the Father + being in His SonTake one person away from the right side of the equation and you do not have what is on the left. You need both and we need the Spirit to be in His Son.
Love to you,
Kathi
Kathifirst the truth is without doubt Gods truth,not the son truth
the son came and make Gods truth known to us ,and then it is not our truth it still Gods truth that we have accepted ,so did Christ ,and in this way we all be one with the truth of God,what is the will of God ,
remember it all started with someone moving away from Gods will,
THERE IS ONLY BUT ONE TRUTH AND IT IS GODS TRUTH,ALL OTHER WILL BE SUBDUE TO IT INCLUDED THE SON,BUT HE BE SECOND TO HIS FATHER .NOT EQUAL JUST ONE STEP DOWN.
it does not matter how you twist the words ,what you may think this would never change.
so you can start from worshiping God the father only and place the son where his glory belong next to his father but little lower.
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ June 26 2011,00:13) Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,12:57) David,
This really isn't as complicated as you make it sound. Peter really did believe that Jesus was His great God and Savior and that He was the Son of God…He distinguishes Jesus from His Father and thus shows that two distinct persons…the Father and the Son, are both called his God, one as the Son and the other as the Father.Read what Simon Peter (Cephas) says here about Jesus and the Father and Spirit:
Moreover, because we were catchers of fish,(8) and not skilled in books, therefore did He also say to us: “I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you that which ye know not; “for it is by His gift that we speak those things which ye hear. And, further, by it we bring aid to the sick, and healing to the diseased: that by the hearing of His word and by the aid of His power ye may believe in Christ, that He is God, the Son of God; and may be delivered from the service of bondage, and may worship Him and His Father, and glorify His divine Spirit. For when we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son also with Him; and when we worship the Son, we worship the Father also with Him; and when we confess the Spirit, we confess the Father also and the Son: because in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit, were we commanded to baptize those who believe, that they may live for ever.
Flee therefore from the words of the wisdom of this world, in which there is no profit, and draw near to those which are true and faithful, and acceptable before God; whose reward also is laid up in store, and whose recompense standeth sure. Now, too,(9) the light has arisen on the creation, and the world has obtained the eyes, of the mind, that every man may see and understand that it is not fit that creatures should be worshipped instead of the Creator, nor together with the Creator: because everything which is a creature is made to be a worshipper of its Maker, and is not to be worshipped like its Creator. But this One who came to us is God, the Son of God, in His own nature, notwithstanding that He mingled(10) His Godhead with our manhood, in order that He might renew our manhood by the aid of His Godhead. And on this account it is right that we should worship Him, because He is to be worshipped together with His Father, and that we should not worship creatures, who were created for the worship of the Creator. For He is Himself the God of truth and verity; He is Himself from before all worlds and creatures; He is Himself the veritable Son, and the glorious fruit(11) which is from the exalted Father.
But ye see the wonderful works which accompany and follow these words. One would not credit it: the time lo! is short sinceHe ascended to His Father, and see how His Gospel has winged its flight through the whole creation-that thereby it may be known and believed that He Himself is the Creator of creatures, and that by His bidding creatures subsist. And, whereas ye saw the sun become darkened at His death, ye yourselves also are witnesses. The earth, moreover, quaked when He was slain, and the veil was rent at His death. And concerning these things the governor Pilate also was witness: for he himself sent and made them known to Caesar,(12) and these things, and more than these, were read before him, and before the princes of your city.
Also, you go on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that but you don't seem to realize that the Son has the name Jehovah as well as the Father. One that is seen and heard and one that is unseen and unheard. The Targums identify the one that is seen and heard as 'the Word of the Lord.'
God bless,
Kathi
He distinguishes Jesus from His Father and thus shows that two distinct persons.Let's put that into one context in scripture.
Scripture distinguishes Jesus from GOD and thus shows two distinct persons.
Do you admit that?
t8,
When scripture distinguishes Jesus from God, it is God the Father who He is being distinguished from, not the begotten God which Jesus is.You are right that they are two persons.
Pierre,
From your post above:Quote so you can start from worshiping God the father only and place the son where his glory belong next to his father but little lower. I will worship the Almighty God, our Father who is the Father, with the Son and their Spirit.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,23:40) Pierre,
From your post above:Quote so you can start from worshiping God the father only and place the son where his glory belong next to his father but little lower. I will worship the Almighty God, our Father who is the Father, with the Son and their Spirit.
kathiwhat is their spirit?
Pierre
Pierre,
They each have a spirit.The spirit of the Father.
The spirit of the Son.Their spirits are united as one spirit and it dwells within believers. That is my understanding.
Good night Pierre,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,23:52) Pierre,
They each have a spirit.The spirit of the Father.
The spirit of the Son.Their spirits are united as one spirit and it dwells within believers. That is my understanding.
Good night Pierre,
Kathi
KathiSO YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT THERE SPIRIT HIS OR MEANS
RIGHT?
so you are with them in the unknown right?Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,16:37) t8,
When scripture distinguishes Jesus from God, it is God the Father who He is being distinguished from, not the begotten God which Jesus is.You are right that they are two persons.
That is right.God in scripture is the Father.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
This idea that there are other YHWH's Gods, or that persons are this one YHWH by substance is not scriptural. God is not a blob, HE is a HIM.
And all other gods are either false theos or are called theos in a qualitative sense. The latter is not confined to Jesus only.
Ye are gods, ye are all sons of the Most High.
Even Jesus is a son of the Most High except that he is the only begotten and firstborn.Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2011,23:15) Let's put this into an equation:
True God and eternal life = knowing the Father + being in His SonTake one person away from the right side of the equation and you do not have what is on the left. You need both and we need the Spirit to be in His Son.
Why do you think that is, Kathi? Do you suppose God is limited in what He can do and so had no choice in the matter, but instead HAD TO save us through His Son?Or do you suppose that this is the way God CHOSE to do things?
HAD TO or CHOSE TO? Which one do you think better fits a limitless God?
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ June 25 2011,23:37) t8,
When scripture distinguishes Jesus from God, it is God the Father who He is being distinguished from………..
Very good Kathi. You are correct that scripture very clearly and very many times distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN “God”.You have grasped the reality that they are distinguishing Jesus from “God the Father”, which is the first step. Now complete your understanding by telling us which “God” is referred to as “the only true God” and our “one God”. For it is THIS God who Jesus is distinguished as someone other than.
peace,
mikeMike,
I think that God was always able to save us because He has always been a Father with a Son and Spirit. Both the Father and the Son are each equally a mighty God and the Son is inseparable to His Father. You can't have one without the other. They are echad…a unity.t8,
Quote Even Jesus is a son of the Most High except that he is the only begotten and firstborn. A big exception there t8. A difference between deity and non deity.
God is a 'Him' on one side of the equation but on the other side of the equation, the Father is a mighty God, the Son is a mighty God, and with their Spirit they make the Father the Almighty God. He always was the Almighty God and always had a Son. As I see it.
Quote you go on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that but you don't seem to realize that the Son has the name Jehovah as well as the Father. If this is true LU, then how do you know when I say “Jehovah” I am not speaking of “Jesus”?
Further, if the Son has the name “Jehovah” as you say, then it seems you also “go on about Jehovah this and Jehovah” that, except you are calling him Jesus.
Confusing isn't it?
That's why we have names. If I refer to you as Gordon, chances are you won't respond to me.
I know you realize that the inspired Bible writers wrote God's name (YHWH if you prefer) about 7000 times.
THEY seem to have went “on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that” as well.
I SEEM TO BE IN GOOD COMPANY.
LU, you should buy a Bible that has God's name restored. You will see the Bible completely differently if you read a version that doesn't remove God's name thousands of times!
Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,16:16) Mike,
I think that God was always able to save us because He has always been a Father with a Son
So the “mighty Father” was ONLY able to save us BECAUSE of his “mighty Son”? The ONE (and I mean O N E) who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them, (including Jesus according to Acts 4:24), is incapable of fulfilling His own will unless the Son He brought forth helps Him? Kathi, you are lost, sister. I've watched you distance yourself farther and farther away from he truth as taught by the scriptures for over a year now. It's disheartening – like watching a friend VOLUNTARILY swim so far out into the middle of the quick sand that I can't reach her and save her anymore.Jesus says the Father is greater than all. He does NOT say the Father (AS LONG AS I'M WITH HIM) is greater than all.
I await your explanation as to why Jesus is many times distinguished as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO “the only true God” and our “one God”.
Quote (david @ June 26 2011,18:47) Quote you go on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that but you don't seem to realize that the Son has the name Jehovah as well as the Father. If this is true LU, then how do you know when I say “Jehovah” I am not speaking of “Jesus”?
Further, if the Son has the name “Jehovah” as you say, then it seems you also “go on about Jehovah this and Jehovah” that, except you are calling him Jesus.
Confusing isn't it?
That's why we have names. If I refer to you as Gordon, chances are you won't respond to me.
I know you realize that the inspired Bible writers wrote God's name (YHWH if you prefer) about 7000 times.
THEY seem to have went “on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that” as well.
I SEEM TO BE IN GOOD COMPANY.
LU, you should buy a Bible that has God's name restored. You will see the Bible completely differently if you read a version that doesn't remove God's name thousands of times!
Hi David,
Going on and on about Jehovah is certainly not my point but that you talk about Jehovah as if the name is always referring to the Father.Context and confirmation from the NT and elsewhere in the OT can help distinguish between which one would be referred to. The Jewish Targums help to show this also as well as the Spirit who guides and brings understanding.
Kathi
Mike,
Does the Father save us apart from the Son?Quote I await your explanation as to why Jesus is many times distinguished as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO “the only true God” and our “one God”. I have already been through this with you Mike.
Kathi
Quote Hi David,
Going on and on about Jehovah is certainly not my point but that you talk about Jehovah as if the name is always referring to the Father.LU, can you give a few examples where the Bible uses God's name where it does not refer to the Father.
How many scriptures in the OT say that YHWH is the Father? Many.
How many scriptures say Jesus is the Father? How many say that “Jesus” is the “son”?
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