Titus 2:13, 14 Proof that Jesus is The Saviour&#33;

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,22:53)

Mike,
you said in your post above to Keith:

Quote

God is the “ULTIMATE SAVIOR”, because no one else would have the power to even save a single hair on their head if not for Him. This is what it means, guys. Not that God is LITERALLY the ONLY Savior, but that He is the ULTIMATE Savior.

The God that is the ultimate savior is Jehovah our God which is the unity of both the Father and the Son.

Salvation belongs to both as one Jehovah God. Jehovah God is the name of two persons…the Father and the Son.

Together the Father and the Son agreed to have the Father send the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Kathi

kathi

where are your scriptures

July 28, 2011 at 5:09 am#254135

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,16:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,15:01)

Pierre,
You need to learn who Jehovah is. He is BOTH the Father and the Son. Salvation belongs to both. This is further confirmation of the compound unity called Jehovah, our God.

Rev 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

Kathi

like always not understanding scriptures just want to be the interpreter of God spoken word,and be a leader to bring all her would be followers in to the abyss,

Rev 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Rev 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,

THIS IS OUR SAVIOR TO HIM BELONG SALVATION;

and to the Lamb.”

AND SECONDLY TO CHRIST WHY ?BECAUSE HE ACCEPTED OUT OF HIS FREEWILL TO COME DOWN TAKE A MAN FLESH BODY AND MAKE HIS FATHERS WORDS AS THEY HAVE BEEN WRITTEN LONG AGO IN SCRIPTURES AND GIVE TO THE NATION OF ISRAEL AND PROMISED TO ABRAHAM,JACOBS,ECT

AND DO ALL WHAT WAS WRITTEN SO TO FULLFILL ALL THE WORD WHAT GOD AD SAID,
AND FOR THOSE REASON THE SON WAS ELEVATED ABOVE ALL OTHERS ,

if this is a lie prove it .

Pierre

Here is your proof Pierre,
I am not the Leader here…see who said it long before me:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible:
And unto the Lamb – notes on Revelation 5:6. God the Father, and He who is the Lamb of God, alike claim, the honor of salvation. It is observable here that the redeemed ascribe their salvation to the Lamb as well as to Him who is on the throne. Could they do this if he who is referred to as the “Lamb” were a mere man? Could they if he were an angel? Could they if he were not equal with the Father? Do those who are in heaven worship a creature? Will they unite a created being with the Anointed One in acts of solemn adoration and praise?

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And cried with a loud voice,…. To show the strength of their affection, and the greatness of their joy, and how sensible they were of the favour they enjoyed, and how hearty they were in the following ascription of glory to God, and the Lamb.

Saying, salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb; by “salvation” is meant, not only temporal salvation, and those many deliverances, which God had wrought for them, and particularly in bringing them out of great tribulation, Revelation 7:14; but spiritual and eternal salvation, which is the salvation of the soul, and is owing to the free grace of God, and the blood of Christ; and the sense is, that God and the Lamb are the sole authors of it, and the glory of it ought to be given to them, and to no other: God the Father, who sits upon the throne, resolved upon it in his eternal purposes and decrees, and contrived and formed the scheme of it in the council of peace, and he made sufficient provision for it in the covenant of grace; and as he from eternity appointed his Son to be his salvation to the ends of the earth, so in the fulness of time he sent him to be the Saviour of the world, and delivered him up for all his people, unto death itself, and spared him not, but awoke the sword of justice against him, and sheathed it in him; and since he had such a concern in salvation, the glory of it in right belongs to him: and the Lamb, the Son of God, he engaged to do the will and work of God, and from everlasting became the surety of the better testament; and in time he came to seek and to save lost sinners, and he is become the author of eternal salvation to them; his own arm has brought it, and it is in him, and no other, even a salvation from sin, Satan, the law, the world, hell, and death, and wrath to come; and it will be the employment of the saints, both in the new Jerusalem church state, during the thousand years' reign, and in heaven to all eternity, to ascribe the glory of all this, not to themselves, to their merits and works of righteousness, or to any creature whatever, but to God and the Lamb only.

Wesley's Notes
7:10 Salvation to our God – Who hath saved us from all evil into all the happiness of heaven. The salvation for which they praise God is described, verse 15; Rev 7:15 that for which they praise the Lamb, verse 14; Rev 7:14 and both, in the sixteenth and seventeenth verse s. Rev 7:16,17

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
7:9-12 The first fruits of Christ having led the way, the Gentiles converted later follow, and ascribe their salvation to God and the Redeemer, with triumph. In acts of religious worship we come nigh to God, and must come by Christ; the throne of God could not be approached by sinners, were it not for a Mediator. They were clothed with the robes of justification, holiness, and victory; and they had palms in their hands, as conquerors used to appear in their triumphs. Such a glorious appearance will the faithful servants of God make at last, when they have fought the good fight of faith, and finished their course. With a loud voice they gave to God and the Lamb the praise of the great salvation. Those who enjoy eternal happiness must and will bless both the Father and the Son; they will do it publicly, and with fervour. We see what is the work of heaven, and we ought to begin it now, to have our hearts much in it, and to long for that world where our praises, as well as our happiness, will be made perfect.

There you go Pierre, proof that what you said about me being the leader in this teaching is not true. Also what you said about not understanding scriptures makes one curious that I am the one in agreement with the scholars understanding and you are not. I had this understanding before I read the commentaries, btw.

Can you show me any commentary by a scholar that agrees with your understanding?

Kathi

July 28, 2011 at 5:12 am#254136

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,23:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,22:53)

Mike,
you said in your post above to Keith:

Quote

The God that is the ultimate savior is Jehovah our God which is the unity of both the Father and the Son.

Salvation belongs to both as one Jehovah God. Jehovah God is the name of two persons…the Father and the Son.

Together the Father and the Son agreed to have the Father send the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Kathi

kathi

where are your scriptures

Pierre,
You don't believe that Jehovah sent the Son into the world? You really need scriptures for this? Do you not already know this elementary principle?

Kathi

July 28, 2011 at 5:20 am#254139

Participant

Pierre,
Here is your scripture:

See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.

Any time you see the name Jehovah which is the name of the unity of the Father and the Son, you can assume the agreement of the Father and the Son for that is part of their perfect unity…agreement in all things. The Father is not a 'dictator father' to the Son, they have a mutual submission…one as Father to Son and the other as Son to Father. Jehovah our God would also have us to submit one to another.

Seek to understand Pierre,
Kathi

July 28, 2011 at 5:30 am#254140

shimmer

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,17:12)

both as one Jehovah God. Jehovah God is the name of two persons…the Father and the Son.

Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,23:58)

where are your scriptures

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,22:53)

You don't believe that Jehovah sent the Son into the world? You really need scriptures for this? Do you not already know this elementary principle?

Mike, cant you see what happened here? Arent you going to do something?

July 28, 2011 at 4:53 pm#254186

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,20:53)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,07:40)

Mike,
I haven't researched these passages but this is what Gill says about each:

From Gill:
thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hands of their enemies; such were judges, Othniel, Ehud, Barak, Gideon, &c. and this was, done for them, not on account of their merits, but the abundant unmerited mercy of the Lord towards them.

I concur. How about you, Kathi? Ed? Keith? Jack?

Mike

When are you going to start answering some questions? Plenty have been put to you by Jack, Kathi and I.

July 28, 2011 at 4:56 pm#254187

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,20:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2011,07:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2011,20:37)

Keith, why won't you answer my post about Nehemiah and Isaiah? Please answer it.

mike

Mike

You don't control me or my post. I am letting you simmer!

And two posts later, Keith say this about Pierre:

“Thanks again for not answering the quesitons. Mike and t8 should he get a tile?”

That's just TOO FUNNY, man!

Mike

But I answered you didn't I. Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering or will there be some favoritism going on here?

When are you going to answer some questions Mike?

July 28, 2011 at 5:15 pm#254190

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,12:53)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,07:40)

Mike,
I haven't researched these passages but this is what Gill says about each:

I concur. How about you, Kathi? Ed? Keith? Jack?

My guestion is did Mike cite Gill out of context? I have already answered a thousand times and my answer is the same. I do not equate shadow with substance (reality).

The old testament “saviors” were shadows of the REAL Savior which is Jesus Christ. Stephen said that Moses was a delieverer “by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush” (Acts 7:35).

The Angel was the REAL deliverer and not Moses or Othniel, Ehud, Barak, Gideon or anyone else. That Angel was Christ. Therefore, Christ was the REAL deliverer (Jude 4-5 ESV).

Now that I have answered this for the thousandth time maybe Mike will move on. Naah he won't.

Jack

July 28, 2011 at 5:32 pm#254194

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,23:20)

Pierre,
Here is your scripture:

Seek to understand Pierre,
Kathi

Kathi

Isa 19:20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.NIV

Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. KJV

where you get your thinking I have no idea ,but you have much imagination,

scriptures say that Christ as received all authority to fulfill his fathers will and only wen he is finish doing that he turn all things over to his father,

you have NO scriptures to back up your dreams

Pierre

July 28, 2011 at 5:36 pm#254195

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,23:12)

Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,23:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,22:53)

Mike,
you said in your post above to Keith:

Quote

The God that is the ultimate savior is Jehovah our God which is the unity of both the Father and the Son.

Salvation belongs to both as one Jehovah God. Jehovah God is the name of two persons…the Father and the Son.

Together the Father and the Son agreed to have the Father send the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Kathi

kathi

where are your scriptures

Pierre,
You don't believe that Jehovah sent the Son into the world? You really need scriptures for this? Do you not already know this elementary principle?

Kathi

Quote

The God that is the ultimate savior is Jehovah our God which is the unity of both the Father and the Son.

any scriptures for your quote ??

Pierre

July 28, 2011 at 5:38 pm#254196

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2011,10:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,20:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2011,07:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2011,20:37)

Keith, why won't you answer my post about Nehemiah and Isaiah? Please answer it.

mike

Mike

You don't control me or my post. I am letting you simmer!

And two posts later, Keith say this about Pierre:

“Thanks again for not answering the quesitons. Mike and t8 should he get a tile?”

That's just TOO FUNNY, man!

Mike

But I answered you didn't I. Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering or will there be some favoritism going on here?

When are you going to answer some questions Mike?

Quote

Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering

where did i not answer you ?

Pierre

July 28, 2011 at 6:58 pm#254200

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2011,12:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 24 2011,21:49)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4

Hi Keith, Jack and Kathi:

Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
How is this scripture true if your scripture is literal? Who are the “saviours” that are mentioned?

Mike

Do you understand that all “saviors” before Christ were by proxy and pointed to “The Savior” Jesus Christ? They were types and shadows of the real.

What is that word you just posted Keith? Was it “saviors”, with an “s” at the end?

Yes Mike I did. But what part of “proxy”, “shadows and types” are you not getting? How many of those “saviors” redeemed the people of God to themselves by their own power life and blood?

Could YHVH be their Savior without any one of those saviors mentioned who were saviors by proxy?

Could God the Father be our Savior without Jesus?

You are just playing dumb it seems Mike. And you are not answering questions.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

But I thought you said there was only ONE Savior, period. Yet now you're mentioning OTHER SAVIORS. How can that be, Keith?

That’s right there is “only one Savior” who is the source of our salvation!

The Hebrew Scriptures say so. And the NT scriptures do not claim more than one savior and when you can answer the questions with honesty then you will see the truth.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

How can God say that He is LITERALLY the ONLY Savior and then SEND a savior when His people cry out? How can Nehemiah speak of the SAVIORS that God SENT when God Himself is the ONLY Savior?

And therein lies your dilemma Mike. Is Jesus you Savior or not? Is Jesus purifying you ”unto himself” by his own life and blood or not?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

When you answer this question, as Kathi tried to, then you'll know how the “ONLY God period” could be the God OF gods.

I have answered you so when are you going to start answering some questions?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

Here, let me help you by expanding on Kathi's post that you all gave kudos for. When God says, “Apart from Me, there is no savior”, He is not saying He is LITERALLY the ONLY Savior, period. Because He Himself SENT OTHER SAVIORS THAT WERE NOT HIM.

There you go again claiming the scriptures are not literal. Did any of the saviors by their own life and power save anyone Mike? Jesus did. Therefore there is no other Savior Mike and YHVH’s words are literal! He “alone” is our “Savior” as the scriptures teach!

“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4

Do you see the ”YOU SHALL ACKOWLEDGE…..NO SAVIOR EXCEPT ME”

DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS AS YOUR SAVIOR, MIKE?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

So like Kathi said, (which, btw, is the SAME thing Pierre has been trying to tell you for pages), God is the “ULTIMATE SAVIOR”, because no one else would have the power to even save a single hair on their head if not for Him. This is what it means, guys. Not that God is LITERALLY the ONLY Savior, but that He is the ULTIMATE Savior.

Pierre?

Pierre can’t even admit Jesus is his Savior. And from the looks of things you can’t either.

“Ultimate Savior” means he is the source of our salvation. Jesus is the source of our salvation by his own life and blood. He is the source of our faith and Eternal life. You cannot have salvation with YHVH without Jesus. Therefore Jesus is God.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,21:19)

Are we all in agreement on this so far?

No Mike we are not for we do not buy into your flawed doctrine!

July 28, 2011 at 7:02 pm#254201

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,12:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2011,10:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,20:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2011,07:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2011,20:37)

Keith, why won't you answer my post about Nehemiah and Isaiah? Please answer it.

mike

Mike

You don't control me or my post. I am letting you simmer!

And two posts later, Keith say this about Pierre:

“Thanks again for not answering the quesitons. Mike and t8 should he get a tile?”

That's just TOO FUNNY, man!

Mike

But I answered you didn't I. Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering or will there be some favoritism going on here?

When are you going to answer some questions Mike?

Quote

Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering

where did i not answer you ?

Pierre

Can you be saved apart from Jesus?

Can you have God the Father without Jesus?

Is Jesus your Savior?

July 29, 2011 at 1:08 am#254225

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2011,13:02)

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,12:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 29 2011,10:56)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,20:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2011,07:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2011,20:37)

Keith, why won't you answer my post about Nehemiah and Isaiah? Please answer it.

mike

Mike

You don't control me or my post. I am letting you simmer!

And two posts later, Keith say this about Pierre:

“Thanks again for not answering the quesitons. Mike and t8 should he get a tile?”

That's just TOO FUNNY, man!

Mike

But I answered you didn't I. Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering or will there be some favoritism going on here?

When are you going to answer some questions Mike?

Quote

Now what are you going to do about Peirre not answering

where did i not answer you ?

Pierre

Can you be saved apart from Jesus?

Can you have God the Father without Jesus?

Is Jesus your Savior?

Quote

Pierre

Can you be saved apart from Jesus?

Can you have God the Father without Jesus?

Is Jesus your Savior?

WJ
[/QUOTE]

1)Can you have God the Father without Jesus?

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

2)Can you be saved apart from Jesus?

Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

3) Is Jesus your Savior?

Lk 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
Lk 2:11 Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.
Jn 4:42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

is there any doubt that the savior is God and that God as used Christ his son the perform the action required by him ?
so that God himself would save all men trough his sacrifice of love.

Pierre

July 29, 2011 at 3:13 am#254237

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:38)

Mike,
I think that Gill would know.

So then you'll take Gill's word for it that Jehovah is NOT LITERALLY the ONLY Savior, period – since He clearly SENT others to be saviors?

July 29, 2011 at 3:19 am#254238

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:48)

BTW, that Hebrew word for Lord, the first Lord in 'Lord of lords,' is Adonay. The word used ONLY for our deity Lord.

You are mistaken, Kathi. Ask Jack. He quoted Barnes or someone who made the same claim you did, and I showed him TWO scriptures where “adonay” was used for someone other than God in the OT.

I just tried searching for that info, but couldn't find it right away. I wish t8's search would take you to the actual PAGE of the thread, instead of just showing the threads the words are in.

(And yes Ed, I did the F3 thing. )

July 29, 2011 at 3:28 am#254241

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:53)

Together the Father and the Son agreed to have the Father send the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Why didn't you just say that they agreed the Son would go? If they both agreed on it, then why did one SEND the other? This gets more amusing all the time.

Anyway, is there LITERALLY only one Savior in scripture, Kathi? Or has the Ultimate Savior sent OTHER saviors at various times? Keith? Jack? Ed?

July 29, 2011 at 3:30 am#254242

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:20)

Pierre,
Here is your scripture:

So then Jehovah the Son SENT Jesus the Christ to be a savior?

July 29, 2011 at 3:50 am#254244

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2011,11:15)

The old testament “saviors” were shadows of the REAL Savior which is Jesus Christ.

Well Jack,

This is exactly what I expected you and Keith to say. Just like you have to invent the phrases “so-called gods” and “false gods” when those phrases don't exist in scripture, you will now invent “shadow saviors”.

Dude, call them what you want to. The fact is that God is NOT LITERALLY the ONLY savior in scripture, is He?

And THAT proves that you understand Hosea 13:4 all wrong. For God is setting Himself up as the ULTIMATE Savior in that verse…………..not LITERALLY the ONLY one.

And now that you understand this, you will not be confused any longer how God can LITERALLY be the ONLY God and yet still be the God OF gods. Again, God is the ULTIMATE God……………………not LITERALLY the ONLY one.

And the same goes for Jesus being our “one Lord”. He is the ULTIMATE Lord to us (under the leadership of his own God, of course)……………………..but not LITERALLY the ONLY Lord.

I hope we all have a better understanding of this now. You can't take every single word in scripture as if it was meant by the writer to be LITERAL. If you did, then Peter LITERALLY WAS the being of Satan.

And Ed, do you now understand that “ONLY God” doesn't mean there were LITERALLY no other gods in scripture? Do you understand it is a statement of emphasis, placing Jehovah ABOVE all of the other gods? Do you understand that is WHY He is the God OF gods? He could not possibly be the God OF gods if there were no other gods for Him to be the God OF.

Jesus is one of those gods that Jehovah is the God OF. Satan is another one. Did you think Paul was lying when he said “there are gods many and lords many”?

Anyway guys, that's the TRUTH of the matter as supported by the scriptures themselves. Either accept it or don't.

Which brings me to these questions for all of you:

Since we all now KNOW of the existence of OTHER saviors in the scriptures, what exactly is it that makes them “shadow saviors” while Jesus is “the real McCoy”?

1. Was not Jesus SENT by his God to be a savior just like all of the other ones?

2. Was he not empowered by his God?

3. Did he not follow the commands of his God?

All I want is TRUTHFUL answers to these particular questions. I don't want to hear, “Jehovah consists of the Father and the Son” or “Jesus sustains all things”. These things are neither here nor there as far as these questions are concerned. Please ONLY deal with exact and honest answers to the three numbered questions.

peace,
mike

July 29, 2011 at 6:00 am#254266