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Jack,
I don't believe I was inferring that He was slain before the foundation of the world.
There are some translations that translate what you are thinking of which are more accurate, imo.Rev 13:8
New Living Translation (©2007)
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made–the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.English Standard Version (©2001)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.I don't think that some translations, not listed here, should imply that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. No translation uses the words 'foundation of the age,' btw.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2011,09:37) Jack,
I don't believe I was inferring that He was slain before the foundation of the world.
There are some translations that translate what you are thinking of which are more accurate, imo.Rev 13:8
New Living Translation (©2007)
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life before the world was made–the Book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.English Standard Version (©2001)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.I don't think that some translations, not listed here, should imply that the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. No translation uses the words 'foundation of the age,' btw.
Kathi
Kathi,I think you infer that Christ was slain before the foundation of the physical creation because the language you use is the same. The fact that no translation says “age” does not matter because we still have to ask the question “which world?”
The Son was NOT in the beginning with the Father before the foundation of the material “world” because the Word did not become Son until the incarnation.
Therefore, the “world” in view is the new world order, that is, the new covenant age.
The Son was in the beginning of the new world order with the Father. The Word was with God in the first beginning.
Jack
Quote (terraricca @ July 20 2011,09:26) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 20 2011,16:21) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2011,07:28) Pierre,
Do you realize that the Son was in the beginning with the Father before the foundation of the world?Do you think they didn't discuss anything before the foundation of the world? Do you think that the Son had no say in anything that was planned for Him to accomplish?
Do a study on what was foreordained or ordained before the foundation of the world.
Let me know if you have a problem finding scriptures about this.
Kathi
Kathi,It means “before the foundation of the age,” that is, the new covenant age.
The Revelation says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. We know that it was not before the foundation of the creation that He was slain but before the foundation of the age.
Jack
KJyou and Kathi comments are now more confusing than ever
could you clarify your statements ,
thank you
Pierre
Pierre,Kathi believes that the Son was preexistent. I don't. I believe that Jesus preexisted as the Word. He became Son when He became flesh.
He was the Word that was with God in the first beginning.
He became Son with the Father in the new beginning.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 20 2011,17:19) Quote (terraricca @ July 20 2011,09:26) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 20 2011,16:21) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2011,07:28) Pierre,
Do you realize that the Son was in the beginning with the Father before the foundation of the world?Do you think they didn't discuss anything before the foundation of the world? Do you think that the Son had no say in anything that was planned for Him to accomplish?
Do a study on what was foreordained or ordained before the foundation of the world.
Let me know if you have a problem finding scriptures about this.
Kathi
Kathi,It means “before the foundation of the age,” that is, the new covenant age.
The Revelation says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. We know that it was not before the foundation of the creation that He was slain but before the foundation of the age.
Jack
KJyou and Kathi comments are now more confusing than ever
could you clarify your statements ,
thank you
Pierre
Pierre,Kathi believes that the Son was preexistent. I don't. I believe that Jesus preexisted as the Word. He became Son when He became flesh.
He was the Word that was with God in the first beginning.
He became Son with the Father in the new beginning.
KJ
KJso if i understand you ?
the Word of Joh 1;1 his Christ but Christ became by name the son of God when he was born as man,
is it ?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2011,13:00) Mike,
I think that it was both their decision and foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Is there a scripture where JESUS' will is the one done in heaven or on earth? Is there a scripture where their “combined will” is done?Or are there only scriptures where the Father's will is done, and Jesus eagerly submits himself to that will?
What you think and what is supported by scriptures seem to be moving ever farther away from each other.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55) “But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4
Hi Keith,Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
How is this scripture true if your scripture is literal? Who are the “saviours” that are mentioned?Isaiah 19:20
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.
How about this one? And who is the savior this one speaks of?peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 19 2011,20:19) Quote (Lightenup @ July 19 2011,13:00) Mike,
I think that it was both their decision and foreordained before the foundation of the world.
Is there a scripture where JESUS' will is the one done in heaven or on earth? Is there a scripture where their “combined will” is done?Or are there only scriptures where the Father's will is done, and Jesus eagerly submits himself to that will?
What you think and what is supported by scriptures seem to be moving ever farther away from each other.
Mike,
Here is just a few of many times that shows that Jesus asks the Father for things according to His (Jesus') will:John 11:38So Jesus, again being deeply moved within, came to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.” 40Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” 41So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42“I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me.” 43When He had said these things, He cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth.” 44The man who had died came forth, bound hand and foot with wrappings, and his face was wrapped around with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
Whenever Jesus asks the Father or men for something, He is expressing what His will is for Him/them to do.
It is always the Father's will to 'hear' His Son and do what the Son wills.
This whole prayer is full of what the Son wills for the Father to do.
John 17
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.6“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7“Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
The Disciples in the World
13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19“For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Their Future Glory
22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
John 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
There really is so much that I could put here to show what Jesus' will is. It seems that Jesus walks in accordance to the Father's will and asks the Father for things in accordance to His (Jesus') will.
Kathi
Bump For David
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2011,12:15) Tell me David, does everything come to you from Jesus own hands or not? WJ
Bump for t8 and David
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2011,10:55)
Tell me t8, Mike and David, does everything come to you from Jesus own hands or not?
Mike has already said that all things do not come from Jesus own hands.t8 and David?
WJ
Bump for all the “anti-Jesus is God and Savior” crowd.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2011,13:13) Can you show me where the scriptures teach there is more than “ONE Savior”? Did the Apostles ever say “OUR Saviors”? WJ
Well is there more than “One Savior” mentioned in the NT scriptures?WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 24 2011,05:17) Bump for all the “anti-Jesus is God and Savior” crowd. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2011,13:13) Can you show me where the scriptures teach there is more than “ONE Savior”? Did the Apostles ever say “OUR Saviors”? WJ
Well is there more than “One Savior” mentioned in the NT scriptures?WJ
Keith,Amen! There is NOT more than one Savior.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 24 2011,05:17) Well is there more than “One Savior” mentioned in the NT scriptures? WJ
Hi WJ,I noticed you tried to detach the rest of “The Bible” from your question.
That is what Tim Kraft does also; tries to discount some bible verses.
But nevertheless, the bible seems to think there is or at least was…Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble,
when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies
thou gavest them saviors, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies. (Neh.9:27)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ July 21 2011,23:42) It seems that Jesus walks in accordance to the Father's will and asks the Father for things in accordance to His (Jesus') will.
“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”This time, Jesus' will did not align with the will of his God. So, whose will was ultimately done?
Kathi, what you've done is to point out that Jesus must form his own will around what the Father wills – as must we all. And you've shown times where Jesus humbly, in prayer, ASKS his Father to grant certain things.
But it is a big leap to imply that since the Father graciously DID grant some of those things Jesus ASKED for, that the will of Jesus took precedence OVER the will of the Father.
Kathi, the will of the Father alone will be done. If I ask for something in my life that the Father grants, I can't say that MY will is being done on earth. I can only say that in that instance, my will was apparently in accordance to the Father's will. There is no exception to this rule for Jesus.
peace,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 23 2011,12:17) Bump for all the “anti-Jesus is God and Savior” crowd. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2011,13:13) Can you show me where the scriptures teach there is more than “ONE Savior”? Did the Apostles ever say “OUR Saviors”? WJ
Well is there more than “One Savior” mentioned in the NT scriptures?WJ
Well, the Father is mentioned. And also His Son. So there are TWO of them right there.Keith and Jack, why won't you answer my post on the previous page? And like Ed pointed out, why do you now exclude the OT, Keith?
Can't you guys answer to Neh 9:27 and Isaiah 19:20? Scripture cannot be broken boys. So you must form your understanding around ALL of them, not just certain ones.
I'll await your answer.
mike
Both the Father and the Son are the one savior, salvation belongs to both of them, they are a compound unity. Salvation belongs to them as two persons in one compound unity. Creation also belongs to both of them as two persons in one compound unity. This compound unity is called 'Jehovah our God.' The name of the compound unity, 'Jehovah our God' is not a being but a name of the unity of two eternal beings of the same nature, one as God of gods, the Father and one as Lord of lords, the Son. The God of gods beget the Lord of lords from within Him before creation.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 24 2011,08:39) Quote (Lightenup @ July 21 2011,23:42) It seems that Jesus walks in accordance to the Father's will and asks the Father for things in accordance to His (Jesus') will.
“My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”This time, Jesus' will did not align with the will of his God. So, whose will was ultimately done?
Kathi, what you've done is to point out that Jesus must form his own will around what the Father wills – as must we all. And you've shown times where Jesus humbly, in prayer, ASKS his Father to grant certain things.
But it is a big leap to imply that since the Father graciously DID grant some of those things Jesus ASKED for, that the will of Jesus took precedence OVER the will of the Father.
Kathi, the will of the Father alone will be done. If I ask for something in my life that the Father grants, I can't say that MY will is being done on earth. I can only say that in that instance, my will was apparently in accordance to the Father's will. There is no exception to this rule for Jesus.
peace,
mike
The Father's will is ultimate as in a perfect father/son relationship and that is what you are seeing. The Father's will is ultimate to the Son because the Son is a perfect Son and His Father is a perfect Father to Him. That's all. Nevertheless, the Son does express His will to the Father and the Father allows it. The Father does express His will to the Son and the Son allows it. Perfect UNITY!Regarding the removal of 'this cup,' the Son's ultimate will was not to follow what He wanted to do He was tempted but to do what the Father wanted for the love of the Father and the love of mankind…thus, a perfect Son, and perfect Lord of lords for us to devote our lives to serving. That temptation showed His humanity.
Do you think that you have done anything in your life that wasn't the Father's will? In those incidents, the Father's will was not done, were they. There are some things the Father permits and some things that are of His ultimate will. You are not God when your will is done and taken precedence over the Father's will, you may be acting like your own god though. The Father is still God and has allowed you to make your mistakes but they are never without consequences.
Jesus always submitted to the Father which is not a weakness but one of the Son's greatest strengths. They both submit to each other always in a relationship of Father/Son.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:13)
Both the Father and the Son are the one savior,
Kathi, I don't understand your English here. Could you try again? Hint: When intelligent people speak of TWO persons in English, they use a PLURAL word to describe them, such as “saviors”.For example: Mike and Kathi are MEMBERS of HN.
Not: Mike and Kathi are MEMBER of HN.
Now you try one!
Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:13)
Salvation belongs to them as two persons……..
And since they are TWO persons, they are:
A. Saviors?
B. A Savior?Use what you've just learned, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:28) Nevertheless, the Son does express His will to the Father and the Father allows it. The Father does express His will to the Son and the Son allows it. Perfect UNITY!
What scripture tells you the Son “allowed” his Father's will to be done?Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:28) They both submit to each other always in a relationship of Father/Son.
When does scripture say the Father “submitted” to his Son?Kathi, what you speak is blasphemy against our God. Don't do that please.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55) “But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4
Hi Keith, Jack and Kathi:Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
How is this scripture true if your scripture is literal? Who are the “saviours” that are mentioned?Isaiah 19:20
It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.
How about this one? And who is the savior this one speaks of?peace,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 24 2011,12:17) Bump for all the “anti-Jesus is God and Savior” crowd. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2011,13:13) Can you show me where the scriptures teach there is more than “ONE Savior”? Did the Apostles ever say “OUR Saviors”? WJ
Well is there more than “One Savior” mentioned in the NT scriptures?WJ
WJno there is only ONE and that is God the father and creator of all
Pierre
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