Titus 2:13, 14 Proof that Jesus is The Saviour&#33;

Blocked

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,18:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2011,08:56)

The fact that Jesus is supreme ruler and sovereign over all the creation and that all things are in his hands and that he is the source of all things to the creation is all the proof any one should need to prove he is God!

Hi Keith,

1. WHOSE creation does it say that Jesus rules over?

2. What scripture tell us that Jesus is “the source of all things”?

And I wonder when Keith will answer these questions. Maybe he's the one cruisin' for a tile?

July 4, 2011 at 5:18 pm#250929

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,12:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,18:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2011,08:56)

Hi Keith,

1. WHOSE creation does it say that Jesus rules over?

2. What scripture tell us that Jesus is “the source of all things”?

And I wonder when Keith will answer these questions. Maybe he's the one cruisin' for a tile?

Mike

I did but aparently you missed it…

So I will bump it for you…

July 4, 2011 at 5:20 pm#250930

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Bump For Mike…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,19:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2011,08:56)

Hi Keith,

1. WHOSE creation does it say that Jesus rules over?

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:16, 17

For all things to consist by Jesus means he is the source of all things not to mention it takes “All Power” for him to hold all things together. Heb 1:3

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. Matt 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Luke 10:22

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16

Before you make the straw man response that because the Father gave him all things he is not God, remember he was/is the Word that was with God and was God who was rich and became poor for us by emptying himself and taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin condemned sin in the flesh as our Saviour and now has returned back to the Glory that he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world and time. John 1:1-3, John 17:5, 2 Cor 8:9, Phil 2:6-8

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 30 2011,19:32)

2. What scripture tell us that Jesus is “the source of all things”?

Well if you want to get technical, where is there a scripture that says “the Father is the source of all things?”

Anyway see the above scriptures. Mike you boast about reading the scriptures a lot well did you read the over 150 verses that I posted that proves Jesus is the “source” of all things to “his” people and the creation?

Click here! and read the 5th post down and read them all with an open heart and maybe the Holy Spirit of truth will show you something.

So when I asked you if all things come to you from Jesus own hands you said “NO.”

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 29 2011,19:12)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2011,10:55)

Does everything come to you from Jesus own hands or not?

No.

You answer is calling Jesus a liar when he says all things are given into his hands, and in fact makes me question whether you are even saved or know him.

Jesus said not only are all things in his hands but that his “true sheep” who hear his voice are in his hands…

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:26-28

Read on and you will see Jesus is claiming his hand is equal to the Fathers and that they are “One”, not just in purpose but in “Power”.

This makes Jesus “God” to every true believer! Jesus also says…

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16

So do you still stand by your statement that contradicts Jesus own words when you say all things do not come from Jesus own hands?

July 4, 2011 at 5:28 pm#250931

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ July 02 2011,17:51)

Kathi,

Do you believe that you can now, through Jesus, go directly to the Father?

Do you believe that what Christ did, was tear down the dividing wall?

Do you believe that when you go to the Father in prayer, and address the Father as the Father, that Jesus is in you? Or is Jesus not?

Is Jesus out there – someone you pray TO? Or is Jesus in you – someone you pray THROUGH?

I have just remembered this, and I thank God the Father through Jesus the son for recalling this to me.

No need to discuss, just felt to say it.

Hi Shimmer,

Quote

Do you believe that you can now, through Jesus, go directly to the Father?

Yes.

Quote

Do you believe that what Christ did, was tear down the dividing wall?

Yes.

Quote

Do you believe that when you go to the Father in prayer, and address the Father as the Father, that Jesus is in you? Or is Jesus not?

The Spirit of the Son dwells within me.

Quote

Is Jesus out there – someone you pray TO? Or is Jesus in you – someone you pray THROUGH?

My fellowship is with the Father AND the Son and it is in Jesus' name that I can have this fellowship.

July 4, 2011 at 5:39 pm#250932

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2011,21:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 02 2011,13:28)

Mike,
Yes it is a Messianic prophecy. According to His humanity He became king after His resurrection, as I understand it. According to His divinity He was always in authority with His Father in the kingdom of God, as the Son, from the beginning of creation.

Rev 3 14
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

So if it IS a Messianic prophecy, then it WAS God Almighty speaking of His Son who will rule from the throne of David forever, right? So if God Almighty's SON is Jesus, then the Father MUST be “God Almighty” all by Himself.

Btw, WHOSE creation is Jesus the ruler/beginning of?

Mike,
In the Messianic prophecy you speak of, the 'Word of the Lord,” e.d. the Son of God begotten before the ages, that came to Nathan to give Him the words from God. The Son was always part of the Almighty God. The Son as the person who became flesh and then became both God natured and man natured, is who the prophecy is about.

The creation belongs to the Jehovah God who is God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son). The Son is the ruler of this creation.

Col 1:16… all things were created by him and for him.

Col 1:18… so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

July 4, 2011 at 8:51 pm#250938

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,12:04)

Hi Keith,

Happy 4th to you. I don't believe you've asked me your question, but I have many saviors. None of them, including Jesus, would have been able to save me apart from God though.

Happy 4th to you also Mike.

Then your doctrine contradicts the scriptures that says we only have “One Savior”.

Jesus is not a savior by proxy like a the rest.

July 4, 2011 at 8:53 pm#250939

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2011,11:39)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 02 2011,21:15)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 02 2011,13:28)

Rev 3 14
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

Btw, WHOSE creation is Jesus the ruler/beginning of?

The creation belongs to the Jehovah God who is God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son). The Son is the ruler of this creation.

Col 1:16… all things were created by him and for him.

Col 1:18… so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Kathi

again missing what you do not want ;the truth

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together

Pierre

July 4, 2011 at 11:31 pm#250960

Blocked

Hi Keith,

Yes, I apparently did miss your response, though I'm not sure how I could have possibly missed all that red type!

Let me rephrase my question, for I was responding to Kathi's mention of Rev 3:14 when I asked it:

Keith, WHOSE creation does REVELATION 3:14 say Jesus is the ruler/beginning of?

Your “Jesus created” scriptures are a matter of translating the word “dia” as “by” instead of “through”. But 1 Cor 8:6 makes it clear by contrast that God is who things are BY while Jesus is who things are THROUGH.

The prayer in Acts 4 also makes it unmistakeably clear who exactly created ALL THINGS, and Jesus' rank in comparison TO that ONE. (I believe Jesus is that One's SERVANT)

As for my second question: If there isn't a scripture that says Jesus is the source of all things, you shouldn't claim that he is. It is similar to you claiming Jesus has all POWER, when the word means AUTHORITY.

Nor can you dissuade me from pointing out that everything Jesus DOES have he has only because it was GIVEN TO HIM by his God – just like all of us. And you certainly can't dissuade me by bringing up John 1:1, which we both know calls Jesus a god who was with THE God.

And finally, YES! I do still stand by my statement that all things come FROM the hands of God and THROUGH the hands of Jesus.

Now, I asked you two simple questions. You have answered one by acknowledging that no scripture says Jesus is the source of all things. Please answer the other one I've clarified above.

peace,
mike

July 4, 2011 at 11:36 pm#250961

Participant

Pierre,
It all fits together if you understand. If you don't understand, then you will say what you said.

July 4, 2011 at 11:48 pm#250962

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,11:39)

Mike,
In the Messianic prophecy you speak of, the 'Word of the Lord,” e.d. the Son of God begotten before the ages, that came to Nathan to give Him the words from God.

So one of our “mighty Gods” is an errand boy for the other “mighty God”?

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,11:39)

The Son as the person who became flesh and then became both God natured and man natured, is who the prophecy is about.

Okay. So then the HUMAN Jesus is the Son OF the God Jesus? Because if the prophecy is indeed about Jesus, and it was GOD ALMIGHTY who said “he will be my Son”, then either Jesus was NOT the GOD ALMIGHTY doing the speaking, or “HUMAN Jesus” is “God Jesus' ” own Son.

Which is it?

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,11:39)

The creation belongs to the Jehovah God who is God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son).

Hmmm…………. That's quite an interesting take on Jesus saying that he himself is the ruler/beginning of GOD'S creation. Did he really mean to say he was the beginning/ruler of “OUR creation”? If so, how do you know this from the words in that scripture?

July 4, 2011 at 11:53 pm#250963

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2011,14:51)

Then your doctrine contradicts the scriptures that says we only have “One Savior”.

Jesus is not a savior by proxy like a the rest.

How can you pretend to take “One Savior” literally, and then use the phrase “like the REST”?

This tells me you are aware that God has sent His people MANY saviors throughout history. It's just that you want to apply your “Exception for Jesus” rule here, and pretend that Jesus is the only savior God SENT who actually IS the God who SENT HIM.

Rather silly of you, if you ask me.

peace,
mike

July 4, 2011 at 11:59 pm#250965

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2011,17:36)

Pierre,
It all fits together if you understand. If you don't understand, then you will say what you said.

Kathi

what you saying is ;Pierre if you see it the way Kathi sees it this means you understand it ,if not then it just is as you read it ; right

I hope you do not suffer from ego?

Pierre

July 5, 2011 at 12:31 am#250969

Participant

Mike,

Quote

So one of our “mighty Gods” is an errand boy for the other “mighty God”?

One of the mighty Gods is the wise a powerful Son who serves His Father faithfully and the creation which they brought forth from nothing.

Quote

So one of our “mighty Gods” is an errand boy for the other “mighty God”?

The Son who is the mighty God from eternity, also called the Lord of lords, was the Son of the God of gods and that Son was much later put into the flesh of man through Mary, conceived by the Holy Spirit of the Most High God. Together, the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords, (the Son) make up the Jehovah God who created the world. Jehovah God consists of two persons, one who is the Father of the Son that was always within the Father until He was begotten by the Father. The Almighty God is Jehovah God. Each person, the Father and Son have different roles. The Father was the one who conceived in Mary through His Holy Spirit to bring about the flesh that the Lord of lords dwelled within and the mighty God who is the Son from eternity also became with us as the Son of Man and called 'Emmanuel' meaning God with us.

Quote

psalm 136:1 Give thanks to Jehovah, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting : 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting : 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Deut 10:12 “Now, Israel, what does Jehovah your God require from you, but to fear Jehovah your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep Jehovah's commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good ? 14 “Behold, to Jehovah your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. 15 “Yet on your fathers did Jehovah set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. 17 “For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18

Remember the singular term = two persons, both a mighty God, one as the Father and God of gods, and one as the only begotten Son and Lord of lords. When you see the singular term you are either looking at the left side of the equation or only one of the two persons on the right side of the equation. When you see the plural pronoun, you are looking at the persons on the right side of the equation.

God bless and happy 4th of July,
Kathi

July 5, 2011 at 12:34 am#250971

Participant

Pierre,
No I am not saying that Kathi alone sees it that way. Many do…go check out the Firstborn thread, like I have told you before.
Stop being an antagonist!

July 5, 2011 at 2:26 am#250991

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,03:59)

Quote (Ed J @ July 01 2011,19:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2011,01:25)

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2011,10:52)

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”: 2 Tim 1:10

It is real simple, is Jesus your Savior or not?

Hi WJ,

Of course! …what a great salvation our savior Jesus Christ has wrought for us!

Thanks for answering. Then if Jesus is your “Savior” and he is not “One God” with the Father and “One Savior” with the Father then that means you have 2 saviors.

So how does your answer agree with this quote you made…

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

And He is “The Savior” to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

Hi WJ,

You clipped the answer to that question, and then ask it as if I didn't already address your point.
… please read it this time and fell free to comment on this “Bible Truth”(117).

I didn't clip anything but your answer to my big bolded question that “Jesus is your savior” yet you claim the Father is “The Savior”. Read your own post for it is clear to see by all that you are claiming you have 2 saviors!

Didn't you say this…

Quote (Ed J @ June 27 2011,16:56)

“God The Father” (JEHOVAH) is “The Savior”(=117) and “The Owner”.
Jesus (יהשוע: YÄ-shü-ă) is God's Son, owner and savior.

So by your own words you claim…

Jehovah is “The Savior” and “The Owner”.

Then you claim…

Jesus is “owner” and “savior”.

Yet you contradict yourself when you say…

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

And He is “The Savior” to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

Hi WJ,

Did you read this?

Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name (YÄ) is not vocalized in
the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of [GOD the Father=117].
[יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)

(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore [Holy Spirit] has highly exalted [Jesus] giving Him a name which
is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation
in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must
be saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă
means: “YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [יהוה=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!

“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is “The Savior” to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)

July 5, 2011 at 2:56 am#250993

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,18:31)

One of the mighty Gods is the wise a powerful Son who serves His Father faithfully and the creation which they brought forth from nothing.

So not only do we have TWO Gods when scripture is very clear we only have ONE, but one of these two EQUAL mighty Gods SERVES the other one? Does that really sound like “equality” to you? When other nations served the Israelites, were those nations EQUAL to Israel? Kathi, just a rule of thumb for you: If one is the SERVANT of the other, equality is out of the question.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Kathi, I'm really not interested in the doctrine you've recently invented. My question had to do with why, if Jesus IS GOD, did he say he was the ruler/beginning of the creation BY GOD?

He is obviously referring to someone else as “God” here, as is made abundantly clear two verses earlier, where he calls this other One “my God” five times in one paragraph.

It is apparent that Jesus is crediting this “God” fellow with the creation. And it is also apparent that this “God” fellow he credits with creation is his own God. And it is apparent from other scriptures that his God is also our God. So it is our God and Jesus' God who created then, right?

Good! Because for a minute there I thought scriptures were contradicting themselves. But I guess not, because that's EXACTLY what the prayer in Acts 4 says too!

Oh happy day!

Kathi, is the Lamb of God the same person as the Father? YES or NO?

peace,
mike

July 5, 2011 at 3:08 am#250994

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,18:34)

Pierre,
Stop being an antagonist!

Keep fighting the good fight, Pierre. It does not go unnoticed on earth or in heaven.

July 5, 2011 at 3:37 am#250998

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 05 2011,21:08)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,18:34)

Pierre,
Stop being an antagonist!

Keep fighting the good fight, Pierre. It does not go unnoticed on earth or in heaven.

July 5, 2011 at 3:39 am#250999

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2011,18:34)

Pierre,
No I am not saying that Kathi alone sees it that way. Many do…go check out the Firstborn thread, like I have told you before.
Stop being an antagonist!

Kathi

but I never say that you are alone to see it that way;

my words;what you saying is ;Pierre if you see it the way Kathi sees it this means you understand it ,if not then it just is as you read it ; right

Pierre

July 5, 2011 at 5:21 am#251004