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Gene: Hope you were able to follow that Mike… Jesus is not a God/man…
Gene, you really need to stop misrepresenting me in your long, convoluted, babbling pontifications, dude. I have argued for years here that Jesus is NOT a “God-Man”. So why would you write something that implies that I believe something that I most definitely don’t believe? You also keep “correcting” me about my “belief” that “all men are gods” – when I’ve never ever claimed that ANY man is a god.
Stop making up beliefs for me out of thin air just so you can “correct” me about them in your diatribes.
As for the post to which you are responding, it’s simple… You made an inaccurate claim, and I presented you with scripture that showed your claim to be inaccurate. Nothing more, nothing less. People bowed before other people all throughout the scriptures. Bowing before someone is not NECESSARILY worshiping them as if they are Yahweh.
Mike……So it really wasn’t, you, that wrote and implied that the people Jesus mentioned as being god’s, were real, god’s beings right? , YOU DIDN’T SAY THAT OR IMPLY THAT ? Mike, not only is Jesus not a “God/Man he is not a “Man/God” either. If you will admit, there is “ONLY” ONE “TRUE” GOD/god to, all, “true” (believers) , then we are through with this excercise of futility.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………gene
Yes Gene, I said and proved through scripture that the gods Jesus referred to in John 10 were real, actual gods.
No Gene, since the gods of Psalm 82 are not men, I did not in any way imply or say that men are gods.
No Gene, I have never believed or said that Jesus was a “God-Man”.
Wow! I just quoted Peter saying that Jesus was our Lord and Savior in my private thread with Gene, and Gene just informed me in his response that Jesus is NOT his savior! 😳🤯
But that’s why direct questions and direct answers are important. A person can pontificate for years here about various things – always talking right past the other person. It is only DIRECT questions and answers that will eventually expose those who teach doctrines that contradict scripture.
Keep those DIRECT questions and answers coming people! It is the only way for us to separate the wheat from the chaff!
God. Jesus still has that same free will – just like currently faithful gods like Michael and Gabriel do. Jesus is not God, Kathi, but one of God’s many heavenly sons – each one created with free will to either obey and align their wills with the will of their God – or reject their God like Satan and a third of God’s heavenly sons already did.
Mike
Jésus IS God AND man
100% God AND 100% man
In the BIGINNING He IS not God the Father, he IS the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD, AND BECAUSE THAT HE IS GOD BY INHERITAGE, AND HE WAS MADE FLESH and lived on earth as a man renouncing to lean on his divinity to overcome his sorrows, but he relied on his Father who is in heaven and applied himself to do his will in all things.
He walked and lived by faith in his Heavenly Father.Hello again Berean. These are the questions I asked you yesterday. Are you going to answer them in a direct manner?
1. What is the name of the Most High God, Berean?
2. What is the name of the creator of the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them?
Berean: Jésus IS God AND man
100% God AND 100% man
No. Jesus WAS existing in the form of a god as a spirit son of God in heaven. Then he emptied himself and existed on earth as a man for 33 years. Then he was taken back up to heaven, where he current exists as a god once again.
Please answer those two questions from yesterday now. Thanks.
Mike
FATHER AND SON HAVE THE SAME NAME….
YOU KNOW THIS NAME
I TOO HAVE THE SAME NAME AS MY HUMAN FATHER…
AND GOD WILLING, I WILL BEAR THE NAME OF GOD MY DIVINE FATHER.
Rev.14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.Rev.22:3,4
[3]And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
[4] And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.Mike again you painted yourself into a cornor, Jesus said this, not me, “I can do, “nothing”, of “myself”, so how could he save anyone “himself”. Here is how scripture says we are saved,
John 1 :16,…. “God”, so loved the world, that “He”(God) gave, “His”, only begotten Son (begotten from humanity) ” that whosoever believes in “HIM”,(God the Father) should have life unending. Jesus was indeed the “SACRIFICE” that, “GOD THE FATHER GAVE “, to save this world “HE ” loved.
1…..who so loved the world?
2…..who “gave”, His only or (uniquely ) begotten son?
3…..did Jesus willing die for us?, or did he , out of his “First love” and “faith” in God the Father, submitted his “will” to the “will” of the Father , who was HIS “First love”, even over his love for his own life, gaving his all to the Father, and in Faith in him, died for him. That we all might have the “eternal” death penalty removed from us.
So who actually saved us , God the Father , did it, in and through Jesus Christ , by offering Jesus up fore His (God the Fathers) sacrifice for all sin . Just as John 16:1 says.
I do not steal from the work of the Father by atributing to Jesus, neither does steal the Glory of the Father , as you try to do , I believe exactly what Jesus said “I can do “NOTHING” of “MYSELF”. Question is do you believe Jesus and what he said?
Mike while It might seem I am pontificating at times, here, it has to do with my convictions on CERTAIN scriptures, that makes it appear that , but i try to always finish my posts with my love for everyone , there is no one here a dislike Mike, I do disagree with much said here , but i know we all have much to learn. I have always respected you views Mike, even if i disagree with some of them.
Peace and love to you and your Mike………..gene
Gene: Mike again you painted yourself into a cornor, Jesus said this, not me, “I can do, “nothing”, of “myself”, so how could he save anyone “himself”.
Gene, I fully understand what you are saying, and I even agree with it. No living creature, not you, me, Jesus, Satan, or anyone else would even have the power to stand if that power weren’t given to them by God.
So now let’s get back to the heart of my question…
How can Peter and other disciples of Jesus openly call Jesus our savior if Yahweh is LITERALLY the ONLY savior?
Was Peter LYING, Gene? Are YOU closer to God and truth than Jesus’ disciple Peter? Do YOU know more about God and truth than Peter did?
See Gene, there is a simple answer – but it involves understanding. I’m trying to lead you there.
Here are the facts:
1. Yahweh said He was the ONLY savior.
2. Scripture calls Jesus and many others saviors.
How will YOU reconcile the two seemingly contradictory scriptural claims?
Berean: Mike
FATHER AND SON HAVE THE SAME NAME….
YOU KNOW THIS NAME…having his Father’s name written in their foreheads…
Having God’s name written in their foreheads does not mean they will all have the name Yahweh as their own name. It is a sign that they belong to Yahweh. But back to the issue at hand…
Psalm 2:2… the rulers gather together against Yahweh and against His Anointed One.
Notice that the rulers gather against TWO people… Yahweh and Yahweh’s anointed one. You and Kathi accept that much, right? It’s just that you two believe that Yahweh’s anointed one is also named Yahweh. Okay. So far, so good.
Acts 4:24-27… When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices (1) to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord… (2) You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them. (3) You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of Your servant, our father David…’the rulers gather together against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’
In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate (4) conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.”
1. Berean, can you see they are praying to “God”? Yes or No?
2. Can you see that the “God” they prayed to is the one who made heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them? Yes or No?
3. Can you see that the one who made heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them is the same “Yahweh” who spoke through David about Himself and His anointed one? Yes or No?
4. And can you see that Jesus is NOT the “God” who made heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them that they were praying to – but instead the holy servant and anointed one OF the “God” who made heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them? Yes or No?
Berean, I’d like to see a DIRECT answer, something like this…
1. Yes Mike, I see….
2. No Mike, I disagree…
Etc, etc, etc.
This is the reason why I get so riled up on HN, and why I have to keep making “Hot Seat” threads so I can hold people accountable. Because this is not even close to the first time I’ve brought this prayer in Acts up to you or to Kathi. And then you and Kathi just talk right PAST my arguments instead of DIRECTLY ADDRESSING them.
For example, I already know that your first instinct right now is to simply post the KJV’s translation of John 1:3 that says “all things were created BY him”… and act as if that solves the problem and addresses my points. It doesn’t, Berean. You are PURPOSELY misunderstanding the KJV’s use of “by” to FORCE your beliefs onto the scriptures, when those beliefs aren’t actually IN the scriptures. At the time the KJV was written, it was common to use the word “by” when the MEANING was “through”. You know this also, because I’ve painstakingly showed it to you many times.
Today we say, “I sent a letter THROUGH the mail.”. In the days of the KJV, they would say, “I sent a letter BY the mail”. But the MEANING (ie: THROUGH the mail) was identical in each. In other words, when the KJV writes, “BY him are all things”, the translators MEANT “THROUGH him are all things” – like the more recent English translations render it.
So what I want from you is an OPEN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT that, according to the prayer in Acts 4, Jesus is NOT the “God” who created heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them, but is instead VERY CLEARLY IDENTIFIED as the “holy servant” and “anointed one” OF the God who created all things.
Can you do that, Berean? Can you be honest enough to say, “Yes Mike, I can see that Jesus is clearly listed as someone different than the God who created all things in that prayer.” ?
Because that’s all I’m asking for. If you and Kathi and Gene and everyone else here could just be HONEST and DIRECT with your answers like I am, then who knows… maybe, just maybe, some LEARNING and RESOLVING might take place around here instead of a bunch of people just continually talking past each other year after year after year.
Mike……Simply answer, God who is “in” all things, is the “only” source of “salvation” for “all” things , us, and Jesus himself also. Saying God the Father uses this or that person, or thing, to bring about his purposes, makes no difference it’s still God, and God “alone ” doing it.
Examples…… God used Sampson , to save Isreal right?, but who gave Sampson “power” to do it ?
David killed Gliouth the Hittite, to save Israel right?, but, who gave David, the power and faith to do it?
I could go on and on over thousands of examples, of God working salvation through for people and things, I can also give many examples where He “destory’s” people and things. To the point i could trimble at the thought of Him and what He can do.
Jesus said, not me, “fear not them that can destory the body, and after that can do nothing else, but Fear “HIM” that can destory “both” body , and Soul, where?, in hell (the grave) .
We all need to understand this, “there is both Goodness, “and” severity with God”. I do not take “His” words lightly brother, when he says , “I am a “JEALOUS” God.” He means it, So i don’t attribut His work to anyone but Him, , He alone is my savior no matter who He does it through.
I also do “honor”, Jesus, as my elder brother, who “our”, God and Father, has placed over us all, I bow to Jesus to the “glory” of “our” Father, “both” Jesus’ and mine. I do not give the Glory that belongs to God the Father , to the Son. As Satan wants us to do , and thereby, commit “IDOLATRY”.
Remember John’s words , “little childern , keep yourselves from idols. 2ths2 , this is what Christanity over the last 1700 years has done to the “image” of Jesus, by saying he is a God?
Peace and love to you and yours Mike……….gene
Gene: Mike……Simply answer, God who is “in” all things, is the “only” source of “salvation” for “all” things , us, and Jesus himself also. Saying God the Father uses this or that person, or thing, to bring about his purposes, makes no difference it’s still God, and God “alone ” doing it.
If I can read through your poor grammar and use of punctuation, I think you are saying that, while God sent other saviors to us, since their power to save comes from God, God alone would be the ULTIMATE Savior. Is that right?
So then David could legitimately be called a savior of Israel, but God would be the ULTIMATE Savior, because it was through God’s power that David saved, right?
And Jesus could be legitimately be called our savior, but God would be the ULTIMATE Savior, because it was through God’s power that Jesus saved, right?
Am I understanding you correctly Gene? Do you agree with how I’ve worded it?
Hi Mike
Sorry, I don’t agree with what you’re telling me about Christ.
All the texts of the Bible do not say that God created the world by the Son, but there are enough to believe that this is THE CASE and in particular Paul to the Colossians.
In this letter, Paul is very eloquent and explicit.
To support that Christ is the image of the invisible God, he affirms that BY HIM all things were created and he lists…
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:HE STILL INSISTS👇
all things were created
BY HIM AND FOR HIM:HE BRINGS OUT THAT HE IS (LIKE HIS FATHER) BEFORE ALL THINGS (THINGS HE CREATED) AND THAT EVERYTHING IS HELD BY HIM
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
THE ANGELS OF GOD RECOGNIZE ALL THESE FACTS AND MUCH MORE IN RELATION TO SALVATION, AND THIS IS WHY THEY WORSHIP THE SON OF GOD FOR WHAT HE IS AND WHAT HE DID(CREATION AND REDEMPTION OF THE WORLD)👉Rev .5
See what I told you Berean? After everything I painstakingly showed you in that last post, I told you that your first instinct would be to quote some translation that says, “BY him all things were created”, right? And what did you do? You immediately quoted some translation that says “BY him all things were created” – just like I said you would. The problem is that this is ALWAYS what you do, and then you sit back on that “BY him” translation – as if it somehow ADDRESSES the things I showed you when it DOESN’T.
Did you bother to actually ANSWER any of my 4 questions DIRECTLY? Nope. Will you? Nope. Because you already know that giving direct and honest answers to those questions will destroy your weak “BY him” rescue device, don’t you?
Okay, here is a new challenge for you. Find a SINGLE SCRIPTURE anywhere in the Bible that has the words “Jesus created”, or “He created”, where the “He” is referring to Jesus, or “You created”, where the “You” is referring to Jesus. You can’t, because there doesn’t exist a single one of them.
Berean, don’t you think it’s a little odd that Jesus is our Creator, but in the entirety of scripture, there isn’t a single verse that SAYS Jesus created anything?
On the other hand, how many scriptures clearly and unequivocally say that Jesus’ Father and God is our Creator? Dozens of them.
Berean: …all things were created BY HIM…
The word translated as “by” in your favorite Bibles is “dia”. Here’s what Strong’s says the word means…
Can you see the top red box, Berean? Can you see the word means “through”, not “by”?
Can you see the second red box, Berean? Can you see the actual DEFINITION of the word is “through”, not “by”?
Can you see the bottom red box, Berean? Can you see that the word is where we get the word “diameter”? And a diameter is a straight line segment passing through the center of a figure, especially of a circle or sphere – or the length of that line.
Note that the diameter line never passes BY the figure, but always THROUGH the middle of it. How much clearer can I make this for you?!? The word is the BASIS for our word that means a line running THROUGH the middle of something!
Now look at the NAS Exhaustive Concordance…
Do you see the top red box, Berean? What is the #1 definition of the word? Can you see it is “through”?
Do you see the bottom red box? How many times does the NASB translate the word as “through”? The VAST MAJORITY of them, right? And how many times does the NASB translate that word as “BY”? ZERO, right?
Berean, you are PURPOSELY using a POOR translation of a Greek word in an attempt to FORCE your beliefs into the scriptures. Do you really think that is a wise and rational thing to do?
This is basically what you’re saying… “Mike, I don’t care about all the many things you are showing me that refute my understanding, because I have 3 verses where the KJV translated “dia” very POORLY, and I’m going to build my doctrine on those 3 poorly translated verses and just ignore the DOZENS of verses that make it abundantly clear that the Father created all things, not Jesus!”
And that, my friend, is both sad and pathetic. But hey, I can only lead you to the life-giving water. I can’t force you to drink it.
Hi Berean, here goes another stab at it…
Hebrews 1:2 NIV… but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
The word CORRECTLY translated as “through” in the NIV is the same Greek word “dia”. Now watch this…
New Living Translation
and through the Son he created the universe.English Standard Version
through whom also he created the world.Berean Study Bible
through whom He made the universe.Berean Literal Bible
through whom He made the ages,King James Bible
by whom also he made the worlds;New King James Version
through whom also He made the worlds;New American Standard Bible
through whom He also made the world.NASB 1995
through whom also He made the world.NASB 1977
through whom also He made the world.Amplified Bible
through whom also He created the universe.Christian Standard Bible
made the universe through him.Holman Christian Standard Bible
made the universe through Him.American Standard Version
through whom also he made the worlds;Good News Translation
through whom God created the universeInternational Standard Version
through whom he also made the universe.Literal Standard Version
through whom He also made the ages;New American Bible
through whom he created the universe,NET Bible
through whom he created the world.New Revised Standard Version
through whom he also created the worlds.New Heart English Bible
through whom also he made the ages.Weymouth New Testament
through whom He made the Ages.World English Bible
through whom also he made the worlds.Young’s Literal Translation
through whom also He did make the ages;Do you see it? Out of all of these most prominent Bibles, the KJV is the only one that has “by”. Even the New King James changed it to the correct “through”. There are a couple other oddballs out there that have “by”, but the vast majority of prominent English Bibles (all of which were produced by TRINITARIANS!) have the correct “through”.
Now go look at Kathi’s “We Believe” thread, which lists the Trinitarian Creed. The very first statement on that Creed is that THE FATHER created all things!
And even Tertullian, a devout Trinitarian and the early church father who coined the term “trinity”, said…
“He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.”
God created Able – the first human who arrived through procreation. And as Eve said, God created Able THROUGH her. Just like God created your children THROUGH you. Does that mean that YOU are the Creator? Was Eve the Creator?
Now, let’s take a look at what the KJV’s translation of Heb 1:2 would even mean…
Hebrews 1:1-2 KJV… 1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds…
1. God spoke in the past BY the prophets. Does that mean that the prophets were the CREATORS of those words, and those teachings? What if we translated correctly as “God spoke THROUGH the prophets”? Now does it make sense, since we know that the messages came FROM God, but He gave them to the people THROUGH the mouths of the prophets? Of course it does.
2. God spoke BY His Son. Same here. Was Jesus the CREATOR of the message? Or did God speak HIS message THROUGH His prophet Jesus – as Jesus clearly told us? (John 8:28, etc)
3. BY whom HE made the worlds. What do we make of this one? Who is the “HE” who actually MADE the world? Well, the “HE” refers back to “GOD” in the first verse, doesn’t it? So then what does BY Jesus mean there? God made the world, but also Jesus made the world? How could that be when there isn’t a single scripture in the Bible that says “THEY made world”?
What if we translated it correctly as “THROUGH”? Then we have GOD making the world, but doing that THROUGH Jesus, right? Just like GOD created Abel THROUGH Eve, right? And just like GOD created you THROUGH your parents, right?
In all of these cases, we have ONE who actually created, and we have others THROUGH WHOM the thing was created. And having God create something THROUGH you does not equate you TO the God who created that thing THROUGH you… or make YOU the Creator. Not in the case of Eve. Not in the case of you or your children. And not in the case of Jesus.
Berean, the scriptures teach that all things are created BY God, and THROUGH Jesus. Understand? They came FROM God, but came THROUGH Jesus. And coming THROUGH Jesus doesn’t mean they came FROM Jesus anymore than Able coming THROUGH Eve doesn’t mean he came FROM Eve.
1 Corinthians 8:6… yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Are you getting it yet? Is it finally sinking in?
John 14:6… Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
It’s that same Greek word “dia”, Berean. Obviously, Jesus is not the Father, right? So we don’t get to the Father by coming TO Jesus, right? But to get TO the Father, we must go THROUGH Jesus.
Now… challenge your self – if you are indeed a seeker of scriptural TRUTH – to stop using the poor translation “by” for the Greek word “dia”, and start using the correct translation “through”. Go back and re-read all those passages with the correct word “through”, and see if you can come to a more truthful understanding than the one you get when you use the wrong word “by”.
Cheers
Mike
What I told you in my last post does not change.
Jesus is the worker of God the Father, ONE WITH HIM IN ALL THINGS FROM ALWAYS AND FOR ALL ETERNITY. AMEN!Mike, not, really, they were the ones, God the Father was “in” causing them to be used in the, saving process which, He (God the Father), used to bring about “HIS” will in the work of salvation, is the way i see it.
There are innumberal things God the Father uses, for bring about “ALL” “HIS” WILL. Both to save and destory, to build a nation and tare down a nation. God does and works, “All” things to serve his purposes, both on this earth, and in the Heavens also, JUST as it says, “WE”,(those called and chosen) are “His” workmanship, being “created”, unto good works”. All the glory goes to the Father, any way you want to cut it , it’s still the work of God the Father, “in” all and through all things Mike.
Peace and love to you and yours Mike………gene
Hi LU,
You bombarded me with questions.
I did not do that to you.
Anyway, I already answered most of your questions in this thread.
Did you find my answers?God bless
To all…..i believe the best way to understand the Word (dia), is for the purpose of, lets look at that for a second ok. GOD MADE THIS WHOLE CREATION FOR A PURPOSE. He had a plan from the beginning, before He ever started , If we understand that ultimate plan, the peaces fall together.
GOD HAD IN MIND , the he was going to create mankind , before ever started anything , so he created a universe , all the planets and the whole universe in He created, He WANTED MANKIND TO EXIST in a certain way, a physical part of his creation, so he designed this earth and brought it into existence to support that human life, He wanted to put on it this earth , he wanted us to have a real relationship with him, so he gave us minds that could reason like and with him, He also knew that our lacked ubderstanding about Good and evil , would prevent us from being able to comunicate with him properly, so he created man with the “a propencity” to sin, even added the catlist (satan) to speed up the reaction, and it did, but after thousands of years , God Brought forth another human he “perfected” and therefore was different from the rest of his human creation, a man from nankind, who He created to reach the “ultimate” God had in mind from the very start of his human creation for “all” of mankind.
This “MAN” would be, BY the “POWER” of God, the fullfillment of the “ultimate” purpose that God had in mind for “ALL” MANKIND. get it, the perfect man?, so the word (dia) implies what God was doing “in” Jesus , for the “purpose” of, “ALL”, HIS HUMAN CREATION? Jesus is the goal for all human creation, He simply is a perfected human being, the end of what God is doing “in”, “ALL”, the human race.
Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene
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