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Mike: First of all, the word “god” in the Bible ALWAYS refers to a BEING who is thought to have powers over nature and the affairs of men… Show me a scriptural example where this is not the case.
LU: Philippians 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, they exult in their shame, and they think about earthly things.
That proves your statement wrong or maybe you can show us that the belly is a “being thought to have powers over nature and the affairs of men.”
I’m having flashbacks to…
Mike: Show me any other instance in scripture where someone said something or had an action attributed to him and we had to pick and choose who the speaker/actor was, like we do each time the “Yahweh Unity” speaks or acts.
LU: The Book of Hebrews because we don’t know the author! I win! ***
Kathi, first of all, do you REALLY believe that your verse fits the spirit of my claim? Do you seriously suppose that the people to whom Paul referred LITERALLY believed their stomachs were gods? And do you suppose that Paul actually thought that they DID believe their stomachs were gods?
But despite all that, let me show you how my claim still stands unrefuted.
Isaiah 44:14-17… He cuts down a cedar… He takes a part of it and warms himself… Half of it he burns in the fire and cooks his meat… And the rest of it he makes into a god… He prays to it and says, “Save me, for you are my god!”
Now, is the block of cedar ACTUALLY a god? No. And why? Because a god is a living being thought to have power over nature and the affairs of man. The lumberjack above THINKS the block of wood is such a living entity, but it is not.
Likewise, when Paul says FACETIOUSLY that their belly is their god, he is saying FACETIOUSLY that they think their bellies are living beings that can save them – just like the knucklehead above thought that the block of wood was a living being that could save him.
But those people didn’t really think their bellies were gods… nor did Paul literally believe that they did. He was pointing out their mentality of “eat, drink, for tomorrow we die anyway”. (Isaiah 22:13, 1 Cor 15:32) He was pointing out that their lives were based only on the physical things, and as such, one might facetiously say that instead of worshiping the God who created them, they worship their own bellies, ie: “their bellies are their god”.
One could also say the same about those who think their riches can protect them from any evils. “They worship their money”, ie: “their money is their god”.
But the point is that the word “god” – whether in the belly or the riches example – still MEANS a living being who has power over nature and mankind. It’s just that Paul facetiously said that their bellies were such an entity to them, and I facetiously said their money was such an entity to them.
But let’s try it with your definition and see if it works…
Philippians 3:19… Their end is destruction, their
god“idea/position” is the belly, they exult in their shame, and they think about earthly things.Their “idea” is the belly? Their “position” is the belly? No, I don’t think so.
LU: That proves your statement wrong…
It actually doesn’t, but if you think that, then you’d have to admit that it proves YOUR statement even more wrong than mine.
Tell you what we can do… Let’s go through the entire Bible, front to back, verse by verse, and exchange every word “god” for “living being thought to have power over nature and men”… AND WITH… “idea/position”. Let’s see who’s really wrong here. 😉
If you insist that Phil 3:19 is an exception, then I will just adjust my statement to exclude that one verse… or limit my statement to scriptures that refer to Yahweh only. Either way, it’s high time you FINALLY give a DIRECT answer to what I’ve been asking you over and over again…
Kathi, accepting for argument’s sake that a “god” is a BEING with powers over nature and man (the actual dictionary and scriptural definition), is your Yahweh Unity ONE God (ie: one BEING) made up of multiple persons? Or TWO Gods (ie: two BEINGS)?
What is your CLEAR and DIRECT and HONEST answer to that question?
*** This is not a direct quote of Kathi, but a paraphrase that, IMO, accurately describes the event.
LU: Since I have proven your definition of god to be inaccurate, the rest of your post that is based on the inaccurate definition needs to be rewritten in order for it to be addressed.
Guess again. Read my post above.
LU: It seems to me that what is said in Heb 1:5 and 2 Sam 7:14 is demonstrating that both are installed as ‘kings’ not both as Solomon or both as Jesus.
It says nothing about “king”, Kathi. It has to do with “I will be his Father, and he will be my son”. Both of them had God as their Father, and both of them were sons to God. Would it be rational for me to therefore conclude that Jesus IS Solomon?
LU: This is not a prophecy or a fulfillment of a prophecy. This is merely a similarity.
The exact same thing can be said of Matt 27:9 and Zech 11:13… IF Zech is actually what Matthew meant – something we don’t even know. What we do know is that Zech 11:13 was NOT a prophecy by any stretch of the imagination. And so IF that passage was what Matthew meant, it is also merely a similarity which Matthew mistakenly called the fulfillment of a prophecy.
LU: Zech 11:13 and Matt 27:9 is a prophecy and the fulfillment of the prophecy. There is the difference between the two situations.
Again, Zech 11:13 is NOT a prophecy. And so even IF Matthew meant Zechariah when he said Jeremiah, he would have been mistaken that it was a fulfillment of a prophecy. There are a lot of mistakes/misapplications in the NT, Kathi. I trust the NT to contain accurate historical accounts and quotes of Jesus. I don’t consider it to be error-free. Nor is the NT what Jesus or any writers of the NT called or considered “holy scripture”.
So IF Matthew meant Zechariah when he said Jeremiah, then he mistakenly called a similarity a fulfillment of prophecy. And since in reality, they are both then just similarities, my question stands…
“If the combo of Heb 1:5 and Sam 7:14 doesn’t equate the persons of Jesus and Solomon, why must the combo of Matt 27:9 and Zech 11:13 equate the persons of Jesus and Yahweh?”
An example of an honest answer would be: It doesn’t have to. I WANT it to, but it doesn’t actually have to. Even if it WAS a prophecy that Jesus fulfilled, it STILL wouldn’t mean, in any way, shape, or form, that Jesus IS Yahweh.
Mike,
You asked:
is your Yahweh Unity ONE God (ie: one BEING) made up of multiple persons? Or TWO Gods (ie: two BEINGS)?
Neither.
Mike,
You said:
But let’s try it with your definition and see if it works…
Philippians 3:19… Their end is destruction, their god “idea/position” is the belly, they exult in their shame, and they think about earthly things.
My paraphrase: Their end is destruction, the god position they have put their appetite for earthly things in is higher than anything else in their life and will guide them right into destruction.
I stand on my statement.
Mike
Are you saying that the story about Judas receiving 30 pieces of silver in exchange for the whereabouts of Jesus is not a fulfillment of prophecy recorded in the OT?
Mike,
Btw, I would guess that people who have given the position of god to food and material things don’t really think they need saving.
Mike,
You asked:
“If the combo of Heb 1:5 and Sam 7:14 doesn’t equate the persons of Jesus and Solomon, why must the combo of Matt 27:9 and Zech 11:13 equate the persons of Jesus and Yahweh?”
That’s like asking if apples are red, why must cherries be?
There are many connections that suggest that Yahweh is not just the father. Matt 27:9 and Zech 11:13 is just one of them.
Mike: Is your Yahweh Unity ONE God (ie: one BEING) made up of multiple persons? Or TWO Gods (ie: two BEINGS)?
LU: Neither.
Okay, I’ll run with the last definition you gave for it then…
LU: Yahweh is one God comprised of two persons.
Got it. Your doctrine is basically the Trinity Doctrine, but without the Holy Spirit being a person. Knowing is half the battle. 😉
LU: My paraphrase: Their end is destruction, the god position they have put their appetite for earthly things in is higher than anything else in their life and will guide them right into destruction.
I stand on my statement.
And what is a “god position”? Is that a high position? A low one? What is it based on? Why is it called a “god” position? What does the adjective “god” actually mean?
And how can you say the word “god” MEANS position, but then use the word “god” to DESCRIBE the position? It’s kind of like you’re saying, “the god god they have put their appetite in…”.
Now let’s do Yahweh the Son with your definition.
“Yahweh the Son is my position because…”
And then Yahweh the Father.
“Yahweh the Father is my position because…”
Help me out here. Put those two in your own words so we can see how your definition of “god” works in the real world.
LU: There are many connections that suggest that Yahweh is not just the father. Matt 27:9 and Zech 11:13 is just one of them.
I think there are about a dozen or so verses (out of 31,000 in the Bible) that are worded in such a way that you can manipulate them into teaching what you’d like them to teach.
I can do it with Moses if I want…
Deut 11:13-15… So if you carefully obey the commandments I am giving you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul, then I will provide rain for your land in season, the autumn and spring rains, that you may gather your grain, new wine, and oil. And I will provide grass in the fields for your livestock, and you will eat and be satisfied.
Whoa! Did Moses just say that they are HIS commandments, and that HE would provide rain and grass? Moses must therefore BE God!
Exodus 7:1… So the LORD said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Double whoa! That seals it… Moses absolutely IS God Himself!
Kathi, I believe this is exactly how you’ve mangled your doctrine together. A little obscure snippet taken out of context here, and another one manipulated just so there.
But I’m looking forward to discussing each and every one of them in depth.
LU: Are you saying that the story about Judas receiving 30 pieces of silver in exchange for the whereabouts of Jesus is not a fulfillment of prophecy recorded in the OT?
What PROPHECY did it fulfill, Kathi?
Mike,
The word “god” is an idea, a position of authority that a thing or being/beings have. It is a position that can be assigned or a position that is inherently assumed. In the case of the Father and Son, it is inherently assumed since they are of eternal essence and before all things.
There are things or beings in positions of importance and/or authority in people’s lives. Can you think of different positions of importance and/or authority?
Positions of authority: an inherent god authority, a non-inherent god authority, a spouse authority, a parent authority, an employer authority, a government authority, etc. You probably have an employer who would be the employer authority position over you. If that employer asked you to lie to the clients, you would probably not obey that authority in your life because you claim to have a higher authority that tells you not to lie. You might say that the highest position of authority in your life belongs to Yahweh, right? If you gave something or some being/beings that position of authority instead of Yahweh, you would be in violation of the first commandment.
The authority which holds the highest position in a person’s life is often a supernatural living being but not always. That would be a god-type of position of authority. While Moses was put in a god-type of a position of high authority over the Israelites it was not as a supernatural position but as an assigned position and lower than the authority of that which would be in a supernatural god position.
Get it?
Mike,
You asked:
What PROPHECY did it fulfill, Kathi?
https://www.wilmingtonfavs.com/king-babylon/lachish-letter-iv.html
According to this, both Jeremiah and Zechariah knew of the same prophecy. It is written in Zechariah previously mentioned and in something discovered and called a Lachish Letter which is where Jeremiah had written.
Hi LU,
Before I answer your questions I will try to
make my argument more understandable.I said:
“Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ. (Psalm 2:2; Acts 4:26)
Jesus Christ therefore CANNOT be Yahweh.”Ok, let’s say my Father’s name is John.
John is the Father of Danny.
Danny therefore CANNOT be John.That is my argument.
Ok, now to your questions.
You asked:Danny, who is the Lord of lords here in the OT:
Deut 10:17 For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe.
Danny, who is the Lord of lords here in the NT:
Rev 19:16 They will make war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and He will be accompanied by His called and chosen and faithful ones.”
In Deut 10:17 Yahweh is God of gods, and Lord of lords!
In Rev 17:14 Jesus is Lord of lords, and King of kings!
(Your quote is actually from Rev 17:14 not Rev 19:16)I totally agree with that!
But they are two different identities.
One is Yahweh. The other is His Son.
If we can get this straight then there will be no more confusion.
Jesus is not Yahweh, He is the Son of Yahweh!
Danny is not John, He is the Son of John!Please give me some time to answer your other question about Hebrews 1 and Psalm 102.
God bless
Hi Danny,
If a guy named Israel, had a son who he named Israel the Israel would be the name of a father, his son, and a unity-the nation of Israel.
many sons are named after their fathers, Danny.
Blessings,
LU
Hi LU
YOU :many sons are named after their fathers, Danny.
In the psalm 24 : 7-10, Jesus(the King OF Glory) IS identified ( in hebrew text)as being YHWH, ….
Chapter 24
👇
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/B19C024.htm
👇
1
The earth is YHVH’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
2
For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
3
Who shall ascend into the hill of YHVH? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4
He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5
He shall receive the blessing from YHVH, and righteousness from the ELOHIYM of his salvation.
6
This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
7
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
8
Who is this King of glory? YHVH strong and mighty, YHVH mighty in battle.
9
Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
10
Who is this King of glory? YHVH of hosts, he is the King of glory. SelahBerean…….That’s right there is “Only” one “true” God, and one only. Exactly as Jesus told us, “this is eternal life that, they might know “YOU” , the “ONLY ” “TRUE” GOD, and Jesus Christ who you have sent”
That’s it, “only one God, and one mediator, between God and man, the “MAN” Jesus Christ”
Those who see it anyother way are not of the truth.
All other God’s that people have made unto themselves are false God’s to us who believe , we “ONLY” HAVE “ONE” GOD, thats why when he left , he said he was Going to “his God, and our God” his Father and our Father” notice he included himself with us humans, by saying ”his and our’s’. JESUS there again was afirming he is one of us human being. He said over 80 time he was a son of mankind, who are son’s of God also.
Peace and love to you and yours Berean………..gene
LU: The word “god” is an idea, a position of authority that a thing or being/beings have.
Show me that definition from a dictionary. Or better yet, swap the word “god” out with “position of authority” in the Bible. Start from Genesis… “In the beginning, POSITION OF AUTHORITY created the heaven and the earth.”
Does it work all throughout the scriptures?
LU: Can you think of different positions of importance and/or authority?
Sure. And when I do that, am I thinking about different gods?
LU: The authority which holds the highest position in a person’s life… would be a god-type of position of authority.
You’re doing it again. You claim that “the word god IS a position of authority” *** (making “god” a NOUN – which it is), but then you use it as an ADJECTIVE.
LU: While Moses was put in a god-type of a position of high authority over the Israelites it was not as a supernatural position but as an assigned position and lower than the authority of that which would be in a supernatural god position.
Get it?
When you say “Moses was put in a god-type of a position”, what does the word “god” itself mean? What is the definition of “god” in that statement? You surely don’t mean that Moses was put in a “position-type position”, right? So what exactly does “god” mean in your statement?
And when you say, “lower than the authority of that which would be in a supernatural god position”, what exactly does “god” mean there? Again, it’s clearly not “supernatural position position”, right? So what does “god” mean there?
*** This is not a direct verbatim quote of Kathi, but an accurate paraphrase of what she has claimed.
LU: According to this, both Jeremiah and Zechariah knew of the same prophecy. It is written in Zechariah previously mentioned and in something discovered and called a Lachish Letter which is where Jeremiah had written.
That is both interesting and cool if true! Unfortunately, it doesn’t answer my question of what PROPHECY those words fulfilled.
I know what a prophecy is, and I’m sure you do too. I just don’t see any prophecy in those Zechariah words, do you? Show me the “this is going to happen in the future” part of the Zech passage, because I don’t see it.
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