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Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 23 2007,11:04) Alright Not3,
You show me a verse in the NT that explicitly says Jesus is not God…..(remember it has to be explicit)
Hmmmmmm……You called me, huh? I like you, Isaiah!
Well, I suppose your point is that there must be a tad bit of deduction to come to any belief. Such as, I will deduct that if God is not a man, and Jesus IS a man, Jesus cannot be God. Or, God cannot die, and Jesus did die, therefore Jesus cannot be God. Or, Jesus said he didn't not know the time and the hour that he would return, and God knows everything, therefore Jesus is not God. Hmmmmm…..
But where does it say word-for-word that “Jesus is not God”? I suppose it doesn't say that. So, are we to believe that the Bible does not EXPLICITLY call God the Father? Of course not!
The Father is God. That is explicit enough for me. All other additions to “God” is not acceptable to me. But I'll think about this challenge a little further and watch what I say a little closer in the future. You-sharp-as-a-tack-brother!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2007,03:40) again show me a definite place where Jesus said Spicificly he is GOD.
Isaiah, this would be a better challenge from our brother (or sister?) Gene.isa1;18 > i want you to answer just a few direct questions without going to obsquire or unprovable texts.
question 1> did Jesus say the words he was speeking were NOT HIS.
question 2> did Jseus say thou art the ONLY TRUE GOD.
question 3> does THOU mean someone else other than the person speeking.
question 4> did Jesus say THY kingdom come THY will be done and does that mean someone other than himself.
question 5> Did Jesus say NOT my WILL but THY WILL be done.
if you can't directly answer these then how can we have any dialog if we can't get passed the basices. please take your time and try to answer these.
my hope is God will help you. all said incaring.:)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 22 2007,05:30) Isa1:18 > we are looking for Jesus the anonited who will come in the glory of our Great God where does that say He is God. i maintain you are forcing the text. Show me where Jesus said he was God.i can't fine it, doint you think that would have been an inportant subject espically to the Jewish population of his day.
Some translations render it “the glorious appearing…” but whether its “the glorious appearing” or “the appearing of the glory of” is irrelevant to the context, you can’t divorce the glory from the person Gene. The great God and Saviour whom we are expecting is Jesus Christ. This view is further pressed in the next verse:Titus 2:13-14
13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.Verse 14 makes clear that there is a single subject in view in the preceeding verse. And that subject “gave himself for us to redeem us”, which of course is Jesus Christ. So the only real objections to this text referring to Jesus as “our great God” are theological ones.
Blessings
Hi Is 1.18,
The NASB has a footnote on Tit 2.13
or
“the Great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ”which removes the certainty of your exposition
and fits with the unity ever expressed between the Father and the Son.isa1;18 > i ASK YOU FIVE SIMPLE QUESTION THAT YOU NEED TO ANSWER IF YOU CAN. I DON'T BELIEVE YOU CAN ANSWER THEM BECAUSE THEY WILL DESTROY YOUR PRESENT POSITION. SO IF YOU CHOOSE TO HANG ON TO YOUR POSITION BY NOT ANSWERING THESE SIMPLE QUESTIONS YOU ARE REALLY NOT TRYING TO SEE THE OBIVIOUS. YOU ARE HANGING ON TO THREADS AND NOT THE SOLID ROCK. PLEASE RECONCIDER IT WILL TURN TO A BLESSING TO YOU.
PEACE TO ALL WHO LOVE TRUTH. IN SERVICE WITH MY BROTHER THE kING AND OUR FATHER WHO IS MY GOD AND HIS GOD. GENENIC HASSAN.> i fermly believe our brother the King will come in the glory of our Great God and Father. He will decend from mount paron with ten of thousands of his saints to execuite Judgment in the earth, and convince all the ungodly of their ungodly deeds which they have commeted. and the Kingdom shall be given to the saints of the MOST HIGH, and they shall poseses the Kingdom Forever. we are truly eirs and joint eirs with Christ Jesus is he not an eiror just like we are and who gives us this inherintance is it not his Father and our Father His God and Our God. yes it is . peace to all who love truth and blessings forever and ever on the Isreal (overcommers) of GOD.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2007,20:42) Hi Is 1.18,
The NASB has a footnote on Tit 2.13
or
“the Great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ”which removes the certainty of your exposition
and fits with the unity ever expressed between the Father and the Son.
Amen, Nick!Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2007,02:22) IN SERVICE WITH MY BROTHER THE kING AND OUR FATHER WHO IS MY GOD AND HIS GOD. GENE
This sounds cool.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2007,09:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2007,20:42) Hi Is 1.18,
The NASB has a footnote on Tit 2.13
or
“the Great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ”which removes the certainty of your exposition
and fits with the unity ever expressed between the Father and the Son.
Amen, Nick!
If you have to resort to citing footnotes to fortify your argument then, to me, that's a sign of desperation. I mean there is generally a good reason why the translators choose put one rendering of a verse in the main body of the text and others in the foot notes, right?It's the preferred one….
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2007,11:40) question 1> did Jesus say the words he was speeking were NOT HIS.
Not as far as i'm aware, no.Quote question 2> did Jseus say thou art the ONLY TRUE GOD.
No, I don't think those words were recorded as being spoken by Jesus in the NT. If you're referring to John 17:3, then I have answered that text here:Quote question 3> does THOU mean someone else other than the person speeking.
Generally, yes.Quote question 4> did Jesus say THY kingdom come THY will be done and does that mean someone other than himself.
Yes.Quote question 5> Did Jesus say NOT my WILL but THY WILL be done.
Yes.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 25 2007,16:05) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2007,09:30) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2007,20:42) Hi Is 1.18,
The NASB has a footnote on Tit 2.13
or
“the Great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ”which removes the certainty of your exposition
and fits with the unity ever expressed between the Father and the Son.
Amen, Nick!
If you have to resort to citing footnotes to fortify your argument then, to me, that's a sign of desperation. I mean there is generally a good reason why the translators choose put one rendering of a verse in the main body of the text and others in the foot notes, right?It's the preferred one….
Hi Is 1.18,
But no verses say God is a trinity.
Despite 1700 years of searching the bible for justifications none stands strong scrutiny as a basis for the theory.
It does show the illogical search for variance that underlies the need to justify trinity theory.
The Word of God is for simple children.
God is one and He has a son.1sa!:18 > John 7:16 my teaching is not mine
John 14:24 the word which you hear is not mine
John 7:16 my teaching is not mine
John 17:30 that they might know (YOU)the (ONLY) true God
Jhon 15:1 i am the vine and my Father is the vine dresser.
Isa 1:18 > PLEASE TAKE THE TEST AGAIN QUITE SKIRTING AROUND EVERYTHING . You are desplaying typical trenitarian brain wash. you are trying to find any excuse you can to not deal with the simple truth.
I never said that God was not in Jesus but saying God is in someone is not saying (THEY) are GOD
just admit the simple truth and our dialoge would be better and you would be happer. Gene
Gene,
I gave a direct answer to every question you asked. Can you please reciprocate by answering the one I posed to you on Pg 16 of the t8's proof text #3 thread.Thanks.
question to isa1:18.> 1sa1:18 could it be possible that the Man of sin spoken of in 2thes 2 is not a real person but a image oF Jesus being a God. which creates a false image of Him as a God which he will destroy at his return with the sword of his mouth, another words his own words and abolish (the Lie) notice the definet article (the) that people who don't love truth believe.
because God will send a delusion to the inorder to believe (the) LIE.
who has is sitting at the right hand of God, and being worshiped as God Now. is it not what trenitarians teach about Jesus Christ right now.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 25 2007,16:05) It's the preferred one….
This almost sounds like a commercial….“It's the preferred translation recommended by Trinitarians everywhere.”
I'm kidding ya, Isaiah. Hopefully you have a good sense of humor about you.
However, there is no denying the fact that the Bible Societies are bias. Just take a look at who is on the translating committees. We can look back in history and also see how bias ruled our documents and creeds…… So, in my opinion, footnotes are important and not a measure of being desperate, it's a matter of being fair.
By the way, Isaiah – I see that you are outnumbered here 3 to 1, and I would like to thank you for answering questions thoughtfully and with a kind tone. Of course we are all a part of the body of Christ, and so hopefully none of us feels “outnumbered.” However, you know what I mean.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2007,18:16) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 25 2007,16:05) It's the preferred one….
This almost sounds like a commercial….“It's the preferred translation recommended by Trinitarians everywhere.”
I'm kidding ya, Isaiah. Hopefully you have a good sense of humor about you.
Like I've said before, I always enjoy your sense of humour….(Ha!)Quote However, there is no denying the fact that the Bible Societies are bias. Just take a look at who is on the translating committees.
Biblical language scholars, good ones. Do they have bias in their theology? Yes, we all do. Did they deliberately (or subconsciously) impose them on the texts? That kind of allegation would require some proof.Quote We can look back in history and also see how bias ruled our documents and creeds…… So, in my opinion, footnotes are important and not a measure of being desperate, it's a matter of being fair.
Funnily enough, you never see trinitarians here bring into question the integrity of the scriptures. We generally affirm that the message in the text has been preserved. That is not to say that all translations are good ones. Footnotes are interesting, but you shouldn't build doctrine on them, right?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2007,18:13) question to isa1:18.> 1sa1:18 could it be possible that the Man of sin spoken of in 2thes 2 is not a real person but a image oF Jesus being a God. which creates a false image of Him as a God which he will destroy at his return with the sword of his mouth, another words his own words and abolish (the Lie) notice the definet article (the) that people who don't love truth believe. because God will send a delusion to the inorder to believe (the) LIE.
who has is sitting at the right hand of God, and being worshiped as God Now. is it not what trenitarians teach about Jesus Christ right now.
I would say that is very unlikely in light of passages like John 5:23, Hebrews 1:5-13, Revelation 4:11-14….. 
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