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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:04) Hi t8, God is the Ancient of Days, himself. God, being the Father of Jesus, is also the source of Jesus. Therefore it is easy to see how Jesus' origins are of ancient times.
Jesus will come in his Father's glory. Why does he not come in his own glory if he had it *returned* to him?
Jesus origin is from ancient times is what it says.Jesus was in the Father's glory and he is now in the Father's glory.
All that he has is of God.
not3in1>. you are right, the plan and Will of God was in the beginning. Ill try to make my paragraphs better thanks for the advise and the encouragement.:)
Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,15:00) I cannot accept that Jesus is nothing more than a replacement Adam. I believe that God made all things through him and for him. Yes he is the only begotten because he was born through Mary by God, but scripture aplenty testifies of his origins and it wasn't in Mary's womb.
God made all things *through* Jesus. To you, does this mean that Jesus was there doing the creating?1 Cor. 8:6 does not say that everything was made through Jesus and for Jesus. It says that we live *through* Jesus. It says that all things came *through* Jesus. But all things are for God.
Again, the Father is the source of Jesus. Jesus' origins start with God. It is easy to see how Jesus' origins can be said to be ancient (for God is the Ancient of Days). It doesn't have to mean that Jesus existed physically in ancient times.
If you believe that Jesus is begotten – conceived – and then born – you believe he had a beginning in the womb of Mary. Otherwise, you do not believe in a true conception. Jesus is an incarnation of-sorts.
It seems to me that on one side you have some who say that Jesus is God and on the other some who say he was a man only.
It reminds me of something I read from Origen once.
Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos (gods), and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny the divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that God on the one hand is autotheos (God of Himself); and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know You the only true God; “but that all beyond the autotheos (God) is made theos by participation in His divinity, and is not to be called simply “the” theos but rather theos. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos (gods) beside Him, of whom “the” theos is “the” theos, as it is written, “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became (gods), for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made theos gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is ho theos (“the god”), and those who are formed after Him are (gods), images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the ho logos (“the word”) of ho theos (“the god”) , who was in the beginning, and who by being with “the” theos (“God”) is at all times theos (“god”), not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father… (Origen's Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)
Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,15:09) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:04) Hi t8, God is the Ancient of Days, himself. God, being the Father of Jesus, is also the source of Jesus. Therefore it is easy to see how Jesus' origins are of ancient times.
Jesus will come in his Father's glory. Why does he not come in his own glory if he had it *returned* to him?
Jesus origin is from ancient times is what it says.Jesus was in the Father's glory and he is now in the Father's glory.
All that he has is of God.
But if Jesus existed prior to coming to earth, and he had glory (which you say he prays to have restored), then why does he not come in his glory? Why is he coming in God's glory.God will not *share* his glory!
Jesus has glory as the only begotten Son – not the same glory God has for being God — that is God's alone.
Just to clarify:
I do not believe that Jesus is “just” a man!
Jesus is the Son of God.
Just because I do not believe that Jesus preexisted does not mean that I think him a mere man.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:16) Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,15:09) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:04) Hi t8, God is the Ancient of Days, himself. God, being the Father of Jesus, is also the source of Jesus. Therefore it is easy to see how Jesus' origins are of ancient times.
Jesus will come in his Father's glory. Why does he not come in his own glory if he had it *returned* to him?
Jesus origin is from ancient times is what it says.Jesus was in the Father's glory and he is now in the Father's glory.
All that he has is of God.
But if Jesus existed prior to coming to earth, and he had glory (which you say he prays to have restored), then why does he not come in his glory? Why is he coming in God's glory.God will not *share* his glory!
Jesus has glory as the only begotten Son – not the same glory God has for being God — that is God's alone.
Quite easy to explain.Jesus glory comes from God. All good things come from God. Beings such as human, angel, and even the only begotten reflect or shine that which is of God.
Like a rainbow. We can be like a prism and reflect all manor of beautiful colours, but without the light, a prism is dull and cannot even be seen.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:17) Just to clarify: I do not believe that Jesus is “just” a man!
Jesus is the Son of God.
Just because I do not believe that Jesus preexisted does not mean that I think him a mere man.
Good. I think this is the belief of Unitarians though.Jesus has divine nature and he also partook of human nature.
not3in1 > you are right they people who make Jesus other than a man and worshipping him as such are denying the Father and the son. and robbing God of His glory and are antichrist.
Well, t8, that sounds lovely. I'm not so sure I understand it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense!
Like I've said before, sometimes my hairdresser uses a little too much blonde when she colors my hair.Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,15:20) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:17) Just to clarify: I do not believe that Jesus is “just” a man!
Jesus is the Son of God.
Just because I do not believe that Jesus preexisted does not mean that I think him a mere man.
Good. I think this is the belief of Unitarians though.Jesus has divine nature and he also partook of human nature.
Jesus is God's Son.You would think that that would explain everything, but it doesn't.
Jesus is a divine man. He has God for a father, and a women as a mother. He is a genuine combination of his parents.
He is not fully God nor is he fully man. He is a divine man. If he is not, then he is an incarnation. And I feel the theology of the incarnation goes against scripture in a major way! Conception and birth mean something.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:23) Well, t8, that sounds lovely. I'm not so sure I understand it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense! Like I've said before, sometimes my hairdresser uses a little too much blonde when she colors my hair.
Origen says that there are people who deny that Jesus is a divine being and others who say that he is God. He wrote this around the 200s I think and if he is right, it seems that nothing has changed.I keep an open mind about this of course. He is but one witness.
Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,15:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:23) Well, t8, that sounds lovely. I'm not so sure I understand it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense! Like I've said before, sometimes my hairdresser uses a little too much blonde when she colors my hair.
Origen says that there are people who deny that Jesus is a divine being and others who say that he is God. He wrote this around the 200s I think and if he is right, it seems that nothing has changed.I keep an open mind about this of course. He is but one witness.
There is nothing new under the sun.I'm sure this debate will go on until Jesus comes! Some get exhausted by the debate, but I have learned so much. For me, everything else is dessert – knowing the who and what Jesus is – is the main course; the meat! And I'm hungry!
Some would say that because Jesus is divine, he is not made like us and we have no hope of following him.
But we can share in the divine nature! It's a glorious plan.Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.If Jesus isn't before all ages, now and forevermore, then the above verse doesn't make sense.
The universe came into being through him. Surely that was before all ages.
I am not saying that he is the same age as his Father for that nullifies the Father son relationship and turns it into a big brother little brother relationship.
But he was before all things.
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:35) Some would say that because Jesus is divine, he is not made like us and we have no hope of following him.
But we can share in the divine nature! It's a glorious plan.
Yes it is a glorious plan.t8 > the problem existes with the word (became) ask yourself what does that really mean, if you check it out you will find it means came to be, came to be how? seening its imposablt for any word to be flesh because a word is not FLESH. so what is the next logical conclusion is it not the word came to be (IN) flesh , yes the word was in Jesus and how was it in him, through holy spirit. thats why Jesus could say the words he was speaking weren't his because it was God who was speaking through him and God was speaking his words through him thats why Jesus gave God all the glory.
Hi GB,
NOt all who ARE are flesh.
God is not flesh.
Angels and the angelic sons are not flesh.
Why should the firstborn son exist too, and then become flesh?t8 > the problem existes with the word (became) ask yourself what does that really mean, if you check it out you will find it means came to be, came to be how? seening its impossible for any word to be flesh because a word is not FLESH. so what is the next logical conclusion is it not the word came to be (IN) flesh , yes the word was in Jesus and how was it in him, through holy spirit. thats why Jesus could say the words he was speaking weren't his because it was God who was speaking through him and God was speaking his words through him thats why Jesus gave God all the glory.
in the beginning was the word and the word was GOD and God was in Jesus through the anointing yes the Word was in Him.
Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,15:37) Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.If Jesus isn't before all ages, now and forevermore, then the above verse doesn't make sense.
The universe came into being through him. Surely that was before all ages.
I am not saying that he is the same age as his Father for that nullifies the Father son relationship and turns it into a big brother little brother relationship.
But he was before all things.
The verse makes sense to me.
And it makes sense because I believe Jesus did exist in God's plan. It was through this plan that God created everything.
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