The word and the flesh

Participant

Kejonn;

There is no difference. Christ was begotten of the Word of Life. 1 John 1
His word is eternal. Heaven and earth will pass away but his word will not pass away. Therefore, the principles that Christ taught of the Father and the Kingdom of God are perpetual, world without end.

August 7, 2007 at 2:21 am#63359

Participant

Kjonn…Right on, God bless you…..Gene

August 7, 2007 at 6:29 am#63379

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 07 2007,10:15)

Here are some intersting places “logos” is used. This will literally be a “word” study :laugh:

Jhn 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
Jhn 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
——————————————————————–
Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
Jhn 8:55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
——————————————————————–
Jhn 10:35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
——————————————————————–
Jhn 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
——————————————————————–
Jhn 17:6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
——————————————————————–
Jhn 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
——————————————————————–
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
——————————————————————–
Act 6:7 The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.
——————————————————————–
Act 8:4 Therefore, those who had been scattered went about preaching the word.
——————————————————————–
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
——————————————————————–
Act 11:1 Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
——————————————————————–
1Cr 14:36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?
——————————————————————–
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
——————————————————————–
Phl 2:16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
——————————————————————–
1Th 1:6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
——————————————————————–
1Th 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
——————————————————————–
1Ti 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
1Ti 4:5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
——————————————————————–
2Ti 2:9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
——————————————————————–
Tts 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
Tts 1:3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,
——————————————————————–
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
——————————————————————–
Hbr 13:7 Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
——————————————————————–
Jam 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
——————————————————————–
1Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
——————————————————————–
2Pe 3:5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
2Pe 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
——————————————————————–
1Jo 2:14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
——————————————————————–
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
——————————————————————–
Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
——————————————————————–
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
——————————————————————–
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
——————————————————————–
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on th
em, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

In light of these scriptures (and many more), why then is the “logos” of John 1 anything different than any of “logos”…certainly those that are “logos theos”, “word of God”, just like the “Word of God” in Rev 19:13?

Wow. I thought this was worth bumping up to a current page. I will be looking this over in great detail.

There are also many places where “Spirit” is in caps and then other places where it is not. Interesting. Then there are versions of the Bible that refer to the spirit as a “Whom” while others refer to it as a “which” – or “it.” Hmmmmm

August 7, 2007 at 7:20 pm#63430

Participant

Kejonn;

Particularly interesting is John 17:10 where Jesus said “thy word” is truth. Christ expressly identifies the word as his Father's word. So if the Word belongs to the Father and not to Jesus, how can it be contended that the word referred to in John 1:1 is Jesus? The trinity doctrine is crumbling big time. John 1:1 is relied on more than any other scripture for proving the trinity and its not even implying Christ, nor does it state Son of God. Christ states the Word belongs to the Father, not him.

August 7, 2007 at 9:13 pm#63439

Participant

Steve,

I find it odd that the OT is chock full of the phrase “word of the LORD”. There are 255 verses with this phrase. It was how people knew God, because they could not truly know the invisible spirit God. So they knew Him through His creation (“And God said”), they knew Him through His prophets and judges (who were called “gods”), and they knew Him through angelic messengers. All carried the word of God. So how does the word become something different in John 1?

God's word still spoke through Yeshua. His only begotten Son. Who better to show the Father to the world. He is the image of the invisible God. But he still is an image.

August 7, 2007 at 9:33 pm#63442

Participant

Kejonn;

King Solomon could not have enunciated the truth any better. I like what you wrote to WJ, too, about how when John wrote the Gospel it may have been after he received Revelation and saw the name “Word of God” written on Christ. I never knew that might be the case. Isaiah said even though heaven and earth would pass away his word would not. Hath not God said that he has magified his word above all his name. Psalms 138:2 John begins his gospel by magnifying his word. John's gospel indeed magnifies the truth of the word more than any other gospel. John was into was the truth, which was why he was known as the disciple whom the lord loved. John used the word truth 22 times in his gospel. The other three gospels only mention the word truth 10 times combined. John's gospel is the gospel of the Word of truth, the seed of God which was given to all generations.

One other aspect of the seed of God that I just got this week was that when God covenanted with Abraham he was making a covenant with us at the same time. Paul taught we are the seed of Abraham which believe in Christ. Five times in Genesis 17 God told Abraham the promise is with you and your seed. We are the seed of Abraham and now God's seed is planted in our hearts by Christ Jesus. It's wonderful how it all comes together. The truth is so rich.

Take Care

Steven

August 9, 2007 at 12:24 am#63591

Participant

To all,

I've played around with this notion before, and I threw it out in front of folks too. But I want to do so again because it just makes too much sense in light of scripture: I think the the logos of John 1 is the Holy Spirit. The first time I thought this was because of Job 33:4:

Job 33:4 “The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Now bear with me a second. In this verse above, “Spirit” is “ruwach” which can mean “wind, breath, mind, spirit”. The word for “breath” is “nĕshamah” which can mean “breath, spirit”. Strongs says

from 'nasham' (5395); a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:–blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

So basically we have two words that are very close to one another. Yet one is responsible for creating, the other is responsible for life. Now lets move to the NT.

Jhn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

This verse has some parallels with Job 33:4. Whereas Job says the “breath” of the Almighty gives him life, John says it is the Spirit who gives life. But remember, the word used for “breath” in Job 33:4 can also be translated as “spirit”. The Greek word here for “spirit” is “pneuma” which according to Strong's is

from pnew – pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:–ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch – psuche 5590.

OK, now I've highlighted some important apsects of all the words above. Did you see them? “mind”, “divine inspiration”, “intellect”, “mental disposition”.

Now lets look at “logos”.

from legw – lego 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):–account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Now add these to the list: “something said, including the thought”, “reasoning (the mental faculty)”, “reason”. Are you seeing something here? Now let's look at some more ideas from scripture.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you: was Yeshua not the child of Mary and the Holy Spirit? Therefore, could it not be seen that the Holy Spirit became flesh? There was no child of the Holy Spirit before, nor will there ever be again.

Jhn 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Jhn 1:3-4 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Job 33:4 “The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Jhn 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.[a light provides guidance]
Psa 43:3 O send out Your light and Your truth, let them lead me; Let them bring me to Your holy hill And to Your dwelling places.
Jhn 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
Mat 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

I will be working on more of this, but I'd like you to also consider the Helper as well.

So to summarize this post, we have “breath” and “spirit” which are fairly interchangeable, and “logos”. And the possible similar meanings of these three are: “mind”, “divine inspiration”, “intellect”, “mental disposition”, “something said, including the thought”, “reasoning (the mental faculty)”, “reason”.

Any feedback?

August 9, 2007 at 4:21 am#63609

Participant

Kejonn…..> to me it's simple to understand concerning the word, just read John 1:1 without capitals and give the simple meaning of word,(intelligent utterance) this intelligence was with God and Was part of who Godwas.And God gave this intelligence it is what enlightens every man that comes into the world. But even though we have this intellegence we still need the Spirit of truth to properly use it, because intellect alone is not enough an ability to reconize (TRUTH) is also needed and this also Our Father must supply. peace to you Kejonn….gene

August 11, 2007 at 12:44 am#63723

Oxy

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 09 2007,16:21)

Hi Gene, I'm not sure if I'm understanding you or not, but the Bible states clearly that the Word was God and was with God… and then the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us.

Jesus went back to be with the Father in His former glory as He asked in Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

But He sent us the Holy Spirit who is our comforter, teacher etc. The Bible refers to the Holy Spirit as He and Who on a number of occasions, including quotes from Jesus, so I don't know how some people here refuse to see that God is one, yet God is three.

August 11, 2007 at 6:00 pm#63793

Participant

Oxy…> the problem is the word (became flesh), this is an impossibility. A word can come to be in flesh, but never be flesh. What did Jesus say,” the flesh profits nothing”, but the word of God is Spirit and life. Words form spirits and we are told to try the Spirits to see if they are of God. So how do we try them is it not by the words comming out of them.

Oxy…. the word was with God and was God's expression of His creating force and what drives it is Spirit, for the Spirit of God moved over the waters and God Said (spoke words) and it came to be.

peace brother……gene

August 11, 2007 at 6:21 pm#63798

Laurel

Participant

Oxy,
There are threads for the trinity on this site. Please use them. You are speaking to people on this this thread who are past believing in the false doctrine of the trinity. Here we are discussing the Word which became flesh.

Just want to note to Kejonn, Yes, the Word is the same as the Spirit. Do a serch on those two words together. So in essence Y'shua is the fulfillment of the Spirit of YHWH.

August 11, 2007 at 11:47 pm#63815

Oxy

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 12 2007,06:00)

Oxy…. the word was with God and was God's expression of His creating force and what drives it is Spirit, for the Spirit of God moved over the waters and God Said (spoke words) and it came to be.

peace brother……gene

Hi Gene, thanks for your reply. I don't really understand why you have a problem with the Word becoming flesh. He was the promise of God, and the fulfillment of that promise. He had to be flesh in order to fulfill His part in God's redemption.

To clarify this, we are considered flesh, but our flesh is only that which houses our soul and spirit.

Blessings

August 11, 2007 at 11:50 pm#63816

Oxy

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Aug. 12 2007,06:21)

Just want to note to Kejonn, Yes, the Word is the same as the Spirit. Do a serch on those two words together. So in essence Y'shua is the fulfillment of the Spirit of YHWH.

Hi Laurel, yes, I am aware of the threads on trinity, but thanks for pointing that out.

I have a question, if the Word is the Spirit, how then was the Word (Jesus) able to send the Spirit? Joh 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.

August 12, 2007 at 3:38 am#63833

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 11 2007,18:50)

Quote (Laurel @ Aug. 12 2007,06:21)

Just want to note to Kejonn, Yes, the Word is the same as the Spirit. Do a serch on those two words together. So in essence Y'shua is the fulfillment of the Spirit of YHWH.

Hi Laurel, yes, I am aware of the threads on trinity, but thanks for pointing that out.

Hey Oxy,

How do you compare your statement to the one made by Yeshua himself?

Joh 16:7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Now, it does not say “I will send me to you” but why would it be necessary that Yeshua go away for the Helper to come?

August 12, 2007 at 5:12 am#63847

Participant

kejonn…> I think the reason Jesus said that he would send the conforter because while he was there the word or God was in him and therefore it was already there but when he left it would not longer be with them so when he went to the Father he had the father send it to them to be in them just like it was in Him it would no longer be with them but be in them Just like it was in Jesus.

August 12, 2007 at 11:53 am#63885

Participant

Thanks Gene. I would like to know how Oxy feels about that verse in relation to his comment to Laurel (which was a comment to me).

August 14, 2007 at 12:12 pm#64036

Cult Buster

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 08 2007,11:20)

Kejonn;

Mr Steve. You are at it again, putting “twist” on scripture.

In John 1:1 it states “. . . kai theos en ho logos”. This is usually translated as “. . . and the Word was God.”

The original word order in Greek, however, is “. . . and God was the Word.”

If when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in Greek as it is the case here, the predicate nominative (in this case “theos”) it cannot grammatically have a definite article. If it did have a definite article, then its position in the sentence would make it the subject of the sentence.

Also however, when the predicate nominative precedes the verb and subject in the Greek, then the grammatical and stylistic effect is to emphasize the meaning of the predicate nominative and to give it the added effect of being a very forceful adjective.

So the statement in John 1:1 means that the Word, which is Jesus, is God–not just “a god,” like the Jehovah's Witnesses highly biased NWT suggests.

John 1:1 literally translated reads: “In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word.”

Notice that it says “God was the word.” This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that “a god was the word.” as the corrupted NWT states. That wouldn't make sense. Let's break it down into three statements.

“In beginning was the word…”
(en arche en ho logos)

“and the word was with the God…”
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)

“and God was the word.”
(kai theos en ho logos)

— Properly translated as “and the Word was God.”

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, This obviously identifies Jesus as The Word (Jehovah God)

The Gospel of John emphasizes the divinity of Christ from beginning to end. It starts with John 1:1 and climaxes in Thomas’ confession of faith.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

August 14, 2007 at 7:38 pm#64047

Participant

CB;

You accuse me of twisting the word of God. How so?

You declare what others have twisted? Make straight the path of the Lord. There's no twisting required. He has chosen the poor of this world rich in faith. The only pre-requisite is to desire truth with a pure heart first. Then God can begin to show you the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. Christ said, “how can ye being evil speak good things?”

If Christ is the Word and the Word is God, then according to your teaching it follows that Christ is God. How then if Christ is God, he is also the Son of God?

According to you Christ and the Father are the same person. Why did Christ distinguish himself from the Father in so many ways?

Take Care

Mr. Steve

August 15, 2007 at 12:35 pm#64102

Cult Buster

Participant

Mr Steve

Quote

If Christ is the Word and the Word is God, then according to your teaching it follows that Christ is God. How then if Christ is God, he is also the Son of God?

According to you Christ and the Father are the same person. Why did Christ distinguish himself from the Father in so many ways?

Mr Steve. Don't misrepresent me. I never said that Christ and The Father are the same Person. They are both God and separate Beings. This is where your arian doctrine falls apart.

Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

August 15, 2007 at 7:14 pm#64118