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RM………………Trying the old Trinitarian shell game , “Jesus was that way when He was a man , but now He is different”> Pure garbage. IMO
peace and love…………………..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,03:22) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 13 2009,03:20) Can you show me in scripture where “essence” is found to describe God, Jesus, or the Spirit? Thanks,
Mandy
Hi MandyThe Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his “being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
The Greek word for “being” is 'Strong's G5287 – hypostasis' which means;
2) that which has foundation, is firm
a) that which has actual existence
1) “a substance, real being“
b) “the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing“
c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
Basically the meaning is that which is the very foundation or substructure of what God is, or “Substance”.
The substructure of everything created consist of the atom.
God is not part of the creation therefore he is of a different substance or “Essence” than creation.
“substance definition“
the real or essential part or element of anything; “essence“, reality, or basic matter
the physical matter of which a thing consists; material
matter of a particular kind or chemical compositionJesus the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh, and was tabernacled among us and we beheld his Glory as of the “only one” of the Father.
No other creature is the very essence or subsistance of what God is!
More information on the Greek word “hypostasis” is found here and here.
Blessings WJ
Amen, finally someone who gets it!Quote (Gene @ Aug. 14 2009,03:24) RM………………Trying the old Trinitarian shell game , “Jesus was that way when He was a man , but now He is different”> Pure garbage. IMO peace and love…………………..gene
You sound like an Islamist.All the due when you argue christian views is insult your ideas.
That's it….
They insult your idea, call it names, say it's wrong and it's over.
How about try explaining how it's wrong, or why it doesn't make sense? And when presented with evidence explain why the evidence doesn't apply to our understanding, rather than ignoring the questions raised.
^^^^ I need to preview my posts more often, I make too many mistakes.
Anyways I want to point out from WJ once more and emphasize.
WJ wrote:
God is not part of the creation therefore he is of a different substance or “Essence” than creation.“substance definition”
the real or essential part or element of anything; “essence”, reality, or basic matter
the physical matter of which a thing consists; material
matter of a particular kind or chemical compositionJesus the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh, and was tabernacled among us and we beheld his Glory as of the “only one” of the Father.
No other creature is the very essence or subsistance of what God is!
Now lets copy this one more time….
No other creature is the very essence or subsistance of what God is!
and again
No other creature is the very essence or subsistance of what God is!
This is my perfect belief in Christ.
I do not think he is greater than the Father in authority.
But because he came from the very ESSENCE of the Father, he is EQUALLY God.
A piece of infinity, is still….infinity
A peice of the almighty, is still the almighty regardless how the Father chooses to Identify THAT piece of him…where it be the Son or the Holy Spirit.
Lets look at it again.
No other creature is the very essence or subsistance of what God is!
So Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the only beings to exist that are actually spawned from the Father's Direct essence…therefore they are equally God, however unequal in Authority.
When the Father gave the Son ALL Authority…that is All Authority under The Father.
The only thing God cannot do, is create a being wholly equal to himself…if that were so, he could not be God.
That's why it makes perfect sense that The Spirit and Jesus are equal in essence, but less in authority.
Thanks WJ, you found the words I couldn't.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2009,03:22) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 13 2009,03:20) Can you show me in scripture where “essence” is found to describe God, Jesus, or the Spirit? Thanks,
Mandy
Hi MandyThe Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his “being“, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3
The Greek word for “being” is 'Strong's G5287 – hypostasis' which means;
2) that which has foundation, is firm
a) that which has actual existence
1) “a substance, real being“
b) “the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing“
c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
1) confidence, firm trust, assurance
Basically the meaning is that which is the very foundation or substructure of what God is, or “Substance”.
The substructure of everything created consist of the atom.
God is not part of the creation therefore he is of a different substance or “Essence” than creation.
“substance definition“
the real or essential part or element of anything; “essence“, reality, or basic matter
the physical matter of which a thing consists; material
matter of a particular kind or chemical compositionJesus the Word that was with God and was God came in the flesh, and was tabernacled among us and we beheld his Glory as of the “only one” of the Father.
No other creature is the very essence or subsistance of what God is!
More information on the Greek word “hypostasis” is found here and here.
Blessings WJ
Rokka,Take notes from this man!! Now this is the way to defend what you believe in. However, thank you for your post as well.
Thanks, Keith. I'll take a look at all that you provided tonight. This “essence” thing has always bothered me – even as a Trinitarian. Perhaps I can gain some insight tonight.
God bless both of you, brothers!
Love,
MandyRokka,
By the way, you can ask for “editing right” from “t8”. This will allow you to edit your posts.
Have a good one,
MandyRokka,
I have just re-read your lengthly post to me. There is a lot of good stuff in there that I would love the opportunity to address. I am home recovering from major surgery, so I cannot sit long….. I will try to get back to you during the day, or tonight.
One thought – I also believe that Jesus is of God because God's Spirit conceived him, and filled him; however, I do not believe that also makes him God. It doesn't have to according to scripture, really. This line of belief is in sinc with scripture…..and scripture calls Jesus God's Son. This I believe.
Later,
MandyQuote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,04:16) The only thing God cannot do, is create a being wholly equal to himself…if that were so, he could not be God.
You are very close to the truth here……
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ Aug. 14 2009,04:29) God Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all God then rokka man
Correct, they are all God.The Father sits highest in Authority and the other two are his servents.
Just like My Spirit is in Authority over my Body and Soul.
I can not eat even tho my body hungers.
I can choose to be happy even tho my Soul wants to be sad.
But my Spirit/Soul/Body all make up my Human Being, but my Spirit sits highest in Authority.
This is how God is. Afterall we are made in his image.
I use these examples because as a human being, we are all limited to comprehension.
The human brain cannot understand phenomenons…so how can we understand The God who created phenomenons?
So I choose to use human analogies to help understand The GodHead.
H20 at different temperatures can be 3 different types of matter.
It can be Ice, Water, or Gas.
But it's ESSENCE IS STILL H20.
So regardless it's form, it is still H20.
And each can do something the others can't.
God's fabric of existence that makes him God, is the same fabric or essence Jesus and The Holy Spirit were spawned from.
So IN ESSENCE ALONE, they are ALL EQUALLY GOD…Just like H20 in any form is EQUALLY H20
The Father controls ALL within himself…he is THE TRUE GOD.
He has always been The Father.As The Father of all, THE SOURCE of ALL
He can communicate and create things apart from himself.
He also has the wisdom and intellegence of All things.Kind of like a river of infinite knowledge.
I believe THE SON was The Father's form of communication to creation….assumed with an Identity.
He gave his communication an Identity and made Him as a person.
I believe he also took his Knowledge and Wisdom and also Gave it an Identity and made it as a Person.
So all in all, it is all God The Father and of The Father…given 2 other identities to carry out his will.
The Son was made flesh, died for our sins, and reconciled us to The Father. The Holy Spirit serves as an educator to all believers to keep us righteous in our ways.
Why did it have to be like this? Because The Father is an infinite unknowable BEING….he is so great that we cannot sense him, less we be destroyed.
So manifesting a fraction of his infinite being as a person…allows us imperfect beings to communicate with a perfect being.
It's kind of like…a 1 dimensional creature cannot fathom a 3 dimensional creature….It would blow his mind….But if the 3 dimensional creature was able to manifest as a 1 dimensional creature, he can possible communicate with the 1 dimensionals without friction.
This is a modern logical understanding of Ancient scripture as to WHY it is this way. And when understoon clearly it amazes me how perfect and intelligent our LORD is….
Amen
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 13 2009,23:38) Rokka, I have just re-read your lengthly post to me. There is a lot of good stuff in there that I would love the opportunity to address. I am home recovering from major surgery, so I cannot sit long….. I will try to get back to you during the day, or tonight.
One thought – I also believe that Jesus is of God because God's Spirit conceived him, and filled him; however, I do not believe that also makes him God. It doesn't have to according to scripture, really. This line of belief is in sinc with scripture…..and scripture calls Jesus God's Son. This I believe.
Later,
Mandy
May God grant you a smooth and fast recovery.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 14 2009,17:08) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 13 2009,23:38) Rokka, I have just re-read your lengthly post to me. There is a lot of good stuff in there that I would love the opportunity to address. I am home recovering from major surgery, so I cannot sit long….. I will try to get back to you during the day, or tonight.
One thought – I also believe that Jesus is of God because God's Spirit conceived him, and filled him; however, I do not believe that also makes him God. It doesn't have to according to scripture, really. This line of belief is in sinc with scripture…..and scripture calls Jesus God's Son. This I believe.
Later,
Mandy
May God grant you a smooth and fast recovery.
Thank you so much, Kerwin!I am feeling so good, but I need to take it slow. Just because I feel so well….doesn't mean I am healed. And I am a terrible patient, let me tell you!
I want to be up and running NOW!! I was just thinking how I needed to get back to this post to address it. But I get so tired by the end of the day. When I check in here….my brain checks out…..and I have very little to add. So sad. I do care, though. And love to read all the posts here.
Love,
MandyHi Rokka,
A quick respone.
Quote When the Devil tried to tempt Jesus, Jesus' response was…”Thou Shall not tempt your God” Why would he say that to the Devil if the Devil was tempting the Son, not the Father???
Please read this passage in context. The devil is trying to make Jesus call on his Father to help him. The devil is telling Jesus that if he jumps off a building – his Father will save him if he asks. Jesus responds and says, “…do not temp the Lord your God…”. Meaning, that Jesus himself would not temp his Father by jumping to see if his Father would indeed save him.Quote My interpretation comes from when. In the beginning was the Word, The word was with God, and the Word WAS God. And the Word was Made Flesh.
Has your study only brought you to one conclusion on this passage? There are many…..Quote When the Angel told Mary, he shall be called Immanuel “God With Us” It makes me feel he is God.
Yes, God with us….but Mary was Jesus' mother, was she not?
Son of God, and Son of Man.
HmmmmQuote When he says ” Truly I tell you, Before Abraham was born, I AM” And then the Jews picked up stones to stone him for he was claiming to be God. Makes me think he is God.
Could not Jesus have origins that go before Abe, and yet not be God himself?
Surely the Father is the source of all, including Jesus.Quote When he is the ONLY MAN to exist on earth that never sinned. Makes me feel he's God.
Feelings betray us, brother. Trust scripture.
God is not a man. Scripture tells us that this is truth.Quote For it was written, ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT of the Glory of God. If that was also applied to Jesus as a mere man who fell short, then his blood wouldn't suffice as the sacrifical lamb.
Are there no other explainations?
God will not share his glory with another, so of course we all have fallen short of it.
Jesus had is own glory – that of the Son of God.Quote If he was not God, he would not have the power to forgive sins.
Not true. Indeed, it was God who gave the power to Jesus to forgive sins.
Jesus told us he could do nothing of himself.Quote If he was not God, then he is not The Son…referred to in 1 John 5:7…There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit and these three are one.
Please do extensive research on this passage. You will find the results are quite disturbing……
Given the fact that this passage was added later by a Scribe, and it is the ONLY passage that a Trinitarian could bank on – I would look elsewhere for proof, my friend.Quote The reason I cannot find the word essence is because essence is a modern day word that probably wasn't used in those times. Rather the word Spirit was used because God is a Spirit.
It is also a modern day theology. Read Acts.Quote It's the only logical modern day understanding I can think of to reconcile Jesus' divinity while abstaining from Idolatry. Otherwise if Jesus is as great as christians revere him, and he's just a man and not God…then that very essence of belief is Idolatry in itself.
Jesus is the Son of the Living God! We are to honor him, praise him, and give him glory FOR WHO HE IS. The Father is pleased when we love his child…….Love,
MandyQuote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 14 2009,04:46) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ Aug. 14 2009,04:29) God Jesus and the Holy Ghost are all God then rokka man
Correct, they are all God.The Father sits highest in Authority and the other two are his servents.
Just like My Spirit is in Authority over my Body and Soul.
I can not eat even tho my body hungers.
I can choose to be happy even tho my Soul wants to be sad.
But my Spirit/Soul/Body all make up my Human Being, but my Spirit sits highest in Authority.
This is how God is. Afterall we are made in his image.
So the Son and Holy Ghost are God also, but beneath and servant to the Father? This leads one to assume a lack of equality which is reported elsewhere in your posts. If they are all truly equal then there would not be a servant/master relationship. If they are limited aspects of the divine then they are not equal either, how you describe Jesus is in line with Hindu explanations of Avatars. Also you tend to use soul and spirit as distinct states of being beyond the physical, it would be helpful if you defined these states for different people and systems use these terms in many ways.Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 14 2009,19:01) Hi Rokka, A quick respone.
Quote When the Devil tried to tempt Jesus, Jesus' response was…”Thou Shall not tempt your God” Why would he say that to the Devil if the Devil was tempting the Son, not the Father???
Please read this passage in context. The devil is trying to make Jesus call on his Father to help him. The devil is telling Jesus that if he jumps off a building – his Father will save him if he asks. Jesus responds and says, “…do not temp the Lord your God…”. Meaning, that Jesus himself would not temp his Father by jumping to see if his Father would indeed save him.Quote My interpretation comes from when. In the beginning was the Word, The word was with God, and the Word WAS God. And the Word was Made Flesh.
Has your study only brought you to one conclusion on this passage? There are many…..Quote When the Angel told Mary, he shall be called Immanuel “God With Us” It makes me feel he is God.
Yes, God with us….but Mary was Jesus' mother, was she not?
Son of God, and Son of Man.
HmmmmQuote When he says ” Truly I tell you, Before Abraham was born, I AM” And then the Jews picked up stones to stone him for he was claiming to be God. Makes me think he is God.
Could not Jesus have origins that go before Abe, and yet not be God himself?
Surely the Father is the source of all, including Jesus.Quote When he is the ONLY MAN to exist on earth that never sinned. Makes me feel he's God.
Feelings betray us, brother. Trust scripture.
God is not a man. Scripture tells us that this is truth.Quote For it was written, ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT of the Glory of God. If that was also applied to Jesus as a mere man who fell short, then his blood wouldn't suffice as the sacrifical lamb.
Are there no other explainations?
God will not share his glory with another, so of course we all have fallen short of it.
Jesus had is own glory – that of the Son of God.Quote If he was not God, he would not have the power to forgive sins.
Not true. Indeed, it was God who gave the power to Jesus to forgive sins.
Jesus told us he could do nothing of himself.Quote If he was not God, then he is not The Son…referred to in 1 John 5:7…There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit and these three are one.
Please do extensive research on this passage. You will find the results are quite disturbing……
Given the fact that this passage was added later by a Scribe, and it is the ONLY passage that a Trinitarian could bank on – I would look elsewhere for proof, my friend.Quote The reason I cannot find the word essence is because essence is a modern day word that probably wasn't used in those times. Rather the word Spirit was used because God is a Spirit.
It is also a modern day theology. Read Acts.Quote It's the only logical modern day understanding I can think of to reconcile Jesus' divinity while abstaining from Idolatry. Otherwise if Jesus is as great as christians revere him, and he's just a man and not God…then that very essence of belief is Idolatry in itself.
Jesus is the Son of the Living God! We are to honor him, praise him, and give him glory FOR WHO HE IS. The Father is pleased when we love his child…….Love,
Mandy
Hello Not3in1Thank you for your rebuttals, this to me is the best form of understanding scripture and coming together as a community to understand the truth. I will address them all
I do want to add that your post, stirred up a fire within me, and I have rarely felt such a passion for my beliefs but even tho the rebuttals were good, they have re-affirmed my position.
When the Devil tried to tempt Jesus, Jesus' response was…”Thou Shall not tempt your God”
Why would he say that to the Devil if the Devil was tempting the Son, not the Father???
***Please read this passage in context. The devil is trying to make Jesus call on his Father to help him. The devil is telling Jesus that if he jumps off a building – his Father will save him if he asks. Jesus responds and says, “…do not temp the Lord your God…”. Meaning, that Jesus himself would not temp his Father by jumping to see if his Father would indeed save him.
I do admit my folly in this passage. And I agree with your explaination. But this only does not refute my position or belief.
Quote
My interpretation comes from when. In the beginning was the Word, The word was with God, and the Word WAS God. And the Word was Made Flesh.Has your study only brought you to one conclusion on this passage? There are many…..
Taken literally, yes as plain as day, when it says…The Word was with God, and the word was God, and the Word was made flesh….draws me to the conclusion that Jesus was God made Flesh.
It's kind of like and IQ test when they ask you:
If all knits are knats, and all knats are knets….are all knits knets? The answer would be “Yes”
So if the Word was God, and the word was Made flesh, then Yes I believe Jesus is God made Flesh.
And if there are many other interpretations then please shed some light on a few. But I am taking the literally meaning, not a metaphoric one.
When the Angel told Mary, he shall be called Immanuel “God With Us”
It makes me feel he is God.
Yes, God with us….but Mary was Jesus' mother, was she not?
Son of God, and Son of Man.
HmmmmWhat's your point? I don't understand where you are gettin
g at….Yes God with us means, he is the Word, That is God, that was Made flesh…Being flesh, he is now God with us.To be flesh he had to have some form of being Human…how else by being born of a Human.
I believe this is the significance of The Father choosing a virgin. If Jesus was born of a Man and Woman, then I would believe as an anti-trinitarian…but this virgin birth was a significant statement made by God.
Why else would he allow Jesus to come from a Virgin if his Origin was not that of a Deity?
It would of just as been easy to exalt a Human who had been born with both a mother and father. But the virgin birth which is unique through out all of scripture, also ascribes a unique identity to Jesus.
If he is a deity amongst men, then he is a God made man amongst men. But the Lord told us we shall have no other God before him?
So does that mean we Glorify The Father, then Glorify his lesser MADE deity in his same Glory?
Pls do not tell me we are not to give Jesus the same Glory as the Father, for anti-trinitarians say, Jesus said himself “That I am not greater than the father” Jesus also said “If you Glorify The Son, you Glorify The Father”
If we glorify the Father with the utmost respect above all things, then how dare we also glorify him with the lesser glory of The Son?
When he says ” Truly I tell you, Before Abraham was born, I AM” And then the Jews picked up stones to stone him for he was claiming to be God.
Makes me think he is God.
Could not Jesus have origins that go before Abe, and yet not be God himself?
Surely the Father is the source of all, including Jesus.He could have been the only pre-existing human in which all things were made. But if that is so, then doesn't that mean he was created as a Deity? Nontheless a Deity that shared the same glory as The Father?
John 17
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify YouHow dare a lesser created Deity to the father say such a thing?
and in Verse 5. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Glorify me together with yourself!!!!!!
The same way I had before the world was?
So this means this lesser created deity shared the same glory as The Father.
This makes God a liar when he says: “You shall have no other Gods before me”
When he is the ONLY MAN to exist on earth that never sinned. Makes me feel he's God.
Feelings betray us, brother. Trust scripture.
God is not a man. Scripture tells us that this is truth.Scripture also emphasizes my claims, I guess I should have used the word interpretation rather than feel…
For it was written, ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT of the Glory of God.
If that was also applied to Jesus as a mere man who fell short, then his blood wouldn't suffice as the sacrifical lamb.
Are there no other explainations?
God will not share his glory with another, so of course we all have fallen short of it.
Jesus had is own glory – that of the Son of God.Are there no other explainations??? I don't know, you tell me.
God will not share his glory with another??? I'm sorry scripture refutes that statement, in the above question it clearly states in John 17:5 Jesus shared the Glory of the father before the world was.Jesus had his own Glory: Again wrong, scripture tells us he shared the same glory as the father.
If he was not God, he would not have the power to forgive sins.
Not true. Indeed, it was God who gave the power to Jesus to forgive sins.
Jesus told us he could do nothing of himself.This belief would indicate Jesus was a puppet. Again he had the flesh of a Man, but had the Spirit of The Father within him.
He claimed that the Father within him was the one performing the miracles.
I don't think any Man of God of old, claimed that the Father was in them, not even moses. Nor did they claim that was how their miracles were working…instead it was as if everything was granted…with Jesus everything was within.
His virgin birth, claims of pre-existence, claims of being the begotten son of God, claims of the Father being within him…
The list goes on, why would The Father be inside of any Man or another Diety. Even now as we receive christ, he grants us The Holy Spirit. To me it sounds like Jesus was more than a Man, and more than a Deity. The only understanding that makes sense, is the Trinity.
The Father in the OT was the only one who could forgive sins was He not? So if he is an unchanging God, why would he stop that act and impart that gift to a lesser imperfect Deity? Aren't we only to be seen as Righteous by The Father, through the forgiveness of sins by The Son? If that is the case…God would be a changing God.
Quote
If he was not God, then he is not The Son…referred to in 1 John 5:7…There are three that bear witness in heaven, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit and these three are one.Please do extensive research on this passage. You will find the results are quite disturbing……
Given the fact that this passage was added later by a Scribe, and it is the ONLY passage that a Trinitarian could bank on – I would look elsewhere for proof, my friend.I can also research information where people say Jesus was not real, or Mary was raped by a Roman soldier but was afraid to tell Joseph so she lied about the experience. Or how Jesus being the son is the reproduced Dogma of pagan religions in reference to the Sun and it's winter solstice.
So who are these reliable sources that tell us it was added in by a scribe, that I should research?
The King James version is the ONLY bible we should seek for truth for it is the closest translation to the original hebrew text…If you can't agree to argue concepts from that book…Then we all need to quit this bickering, learn Hebrew and begin readin the original bible in its own context.
Quote
The reason I cannot find the word essence is because essence is a modern day word that probably wasn't used in those times. Rather the word Spirit was used because God is a Spirit.It is also a modern day theology. Read Acts.
No essence is a modern day discription for modern day minds.
Just like latin has like 5 ways to say the word “Love” but english has only 2 ways, as perspective and understanding changes through the times, we have words and descriptions to adapt to those changes.Being of the same essence I believe is a perfect description of Jesus' divinity and Heir as God's literal begotten Son. Also reconciling our faith in Him as one who can forgive sins being part of the Godhead.
And your last comment I agree with except for the part where we give him Glory for who he is…No we give him the same Glory as the Father, and Jesus has said so himself on at least 2 different occassions…..
Honoring the son honors the father
and when he asked the father to give him the same glory they shared before the world was….Amen
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