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So Nick,
Do you mean to say Jesus was literally available in heaven with the Father in glory prior to taking birth as human and was not having the knowledge what he has to do on earth. Therefore he started learning every thing from Zero by faith?Some thoughts about Jesus and sacrifice:
If Jesus evolved faster then the rest of us and no longer needed to take on flesh, I think it would be a sacrifice to take on the mantle of flesh not out of karma or obligation or need to evolve, but to simply help out his slower developing brethren.As for as death on the cross, even knowing his earthly life was temporary and greater things awaited him, he was still human, subject to pain and emotion. Even if he knew and I'm sure he did, of the glory that awaited, he still had to go through the process.
Personally, I am not afraid of death it's the dying I worry about, I don't think after being whipped and scourged I would like to be nailed up to a post in the hot sun and wonder whether I will die first of dehydration or asphyxation all the while knowing I essentially volunteered for the mission and could get out of it if only I would give up.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,17:28) So Nick,
Do you mean to say Jesus was literally available in heaven with the Father in glory prior to taking birth as human and was not having the knowledge what he has to do on earth. Therefore he started learning every thing from Zero by faith?
Hi GM,
Yes the Word was with God in the beginning.
He trusted and obeyed and emptied himself taking our lowly form.
Being found as a man he learned by painful experience earthly obedience to his Father.
He grew in wisdom and knowledge from being steeped in the Word.
Then he was anointed by God with God's spirit and given authority and power and access to all deeper knowledge.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,07:28) Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,17:28) So Nick,
Do you mean to say Jesus was literally available in heaven with the Father in glory prior to taking birth as human and was not having the knowledge what he has to do on earth. Therefore he started learning every thing from Zero by faith?
Hi GM,
Yes the Word was with God in the beginning.
He trusted and obeyed and emptied himself taking our lowly form.
Being found as a man he learned by painful experience earthly obedience to his Father.
He grew in wisdom and knowledge from being steeped in the Word.
Then he was anointed by God with God's spirit and given authority and power and access to all deeper knowledge.
What about the boy Jesus teaching in the temple? He knew of “his Father” then. This was before the Jordan, however. What do you make of that Nick?
Thanks,
MandyHi not3,
He was brought up by his Father.
His Father was WITH him.Heb12
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.and Is 53
Isaiah 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
But I'm confused then. So Jesus DID KNOW about his previous life? I thought your stand was that he acted on faith and didn't have that knowledge? I believe you said somewhere that he had the same knowledge as we do? But I wasn't raised by God, himself.
Hi not3,
He seemed to know God was his true Father even at 12.
The baptism with the Spirit at the Jordan would have brought him to all available knowledge.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,08:32) The baptism with the Spirit at the Jordan would have brought him to all available knowledge.
Speculation?Are there scriptures that teach Jesus only knew that he was the Son of God but didn't exist prior? Are there scriptures that teach at the Jordan Jesus was given his passport and saw the previous stamps from “Heaven”?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 27 2008,08:44) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,08:32) The baptism with the Spirit at the Jordan would have brought him to all available knowledge.
Speculation?Are there scriptures that teach Jesus only knew that he was the Son of God but didn't exist prior? Are there scriptures that teach at the Jordan Jesus was given his passport and saw the previous stamps from “Heaven”?
Hi not3,
1cor2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Jn14
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.So these matters are of the Spiritually renewed mind of the anointed one.
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 25 2008,03:13) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,02:58) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 25 2008,02:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 24 2008,19:24) If Jesus couldn't have walked away from the cross………. his going to the cross was not a true sacrifice.
Just thinking out loud.
Mandy
John 3:16…THis was GOD's sacrifice…not Jesus
Yes, God was the giver of the sacrifice.Jesus was the sacrifice.
“For GOD loved the world”….Just like if someone kidnapped my child and wanted 100 grand as a ransom…
Whose sacrifice is it…the money or mine?
Lets compare…sin and death kidnapped mankind …and needed a ransom for mankinds return…GOD gave Jesus as a ransom sacrifice to get mankind back…so just like in my example before…I ask who's sacrifice is it really? ….
mine(GODs) or the money(Christ)
I am still waiting for someone to prove this invalid..if it makes sense in the example I gave..why can't it make sense when dealing with the ransom sacrifice….Remember saints..I am not saying Christ did not sacrifice..I am trying to show whose sacrifice it really was
Hi not3,
Ps 32
6For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.7Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
8I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
9Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
10Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the LORD, mercy shall compass him about.
11Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.
Jesus was raised by his Father.
DK……i believe it was God's sacrifice, doesn't it say God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not parish. But it does also seam the Jesus sacrificed Himself.
We are told that it pleased God (IF) he would empty out soul unto death. Why would it have pleased God, I believe because it took total trust in God, For Jesus to have offered Himself that way, He would have had to put his (will) completely to death and trust completely in God to have accomplished this. When we see Jesus in the throne of God He appears as a slain lamb, why does he appear this way, Because Jesus no longer has his own will, and as a result the only will working in him is the Fathers i.e the seven horns(powers)and the seven eyes which are the seven spirits, of God that go out into the
world. If you can understand our WILLS like Jesus' WILL have to die so that only one will will be done, God in All and through All.Jesus is also portrayed as the Lamb of God, why because He is what God brought into the world to pay for the sins of the whole world, His creation, and God takes full responsibility for all Sin, why because He could have prevented it if He wanted to before it ever got started, But once you see that God takes responsibility for all good and all evil and full responsibility for emerging us into it, giving us carnal minds that are a enemy to him, then it all makes sense. Remember a Sacrificial Lamb is given by the responsible Party.
So God takes all final responsibility for sin, and pays for it. And therefore all sin has been forgiven man. And God regenerates man with a new Spirit and Mind that is subject to all His laws and Judgment willingly. He transforms us into His dear children by recreating us and giving us new hearts. It all make sense if you think about it.
IMO……………gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 27 2008,11:25) Hi GB,
Interesting speculations.
All are forgiven?
Hmmm
Hi Gene.
Good post. It usually is if Nick doesn't agree with it. He doesn't even know that our Lords sacrifice has justified all mankind, and still having to ask forgiveness for his sins, nulifying the sacrifice as not good enough to erase the sin of all mankind. Will he ever learn?Blessings.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2008,10:44) DK……i believe it was God's sacrifice, doesn't it say God gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not parish. But it does also seam the Jesus sacrificed Himself.
We are told that it pleased God (IF) he would empty out soul unto death. Why would it have pleased God, I believe because it took total trust in God, For Jesus to have offered Himself that way, He would have had to put his (will) completely to death and trust completely in God to have accomplished this. When we see Jesus in the throne of God He appears as a slain lamb, why does he appear this way, Because Jesus no longer has his own will, and as a result the only will working in him is the Fathers i.e the seven horns(powers)and the seven eyes which are the seven spirits, of God that go out into the
world. If you can understand our WILLS like Jesus' WILL have to die so that only one will will be done, God in All and through All.Jesus is also portrayed as the Lamb of God, why because He is what God brought into the world to pay for the sins of the whole world, His creation, and God takes full responsibility for all Sin, why because He could have prevented it if He wanted to before it ever got started, But once you see that God takes responsibility for all good and all evil and full responsibility for emerging us into it, giving us carnal minds that are a enemy to him, then it all makes sense. Remember a Sacrificial Lamb is given by the responsible Party.
So God takes all final responsibility for sin, and pays for it. And therefore all sin has been forgiven man. And God regenerates man with a new Spirit and Mind that is subject to all His laws and Judgment willingly. He transforms us into His dear children by recreating us and giving us new hearts. It all make sense if you think about it.
IMO……………gene
You know my thoughts on predestination..so i will reserve commentNick……”therefore who is he that condemneth it was Christ that died “. Jesus Sacrifice Paid for all Sin not ours only But the sins of the whole world. God has concluded all Under Sin so he might have mercy on (ALL). The will and Purpose of God is to deliver all His creation from corruption thats in the world. And He will.
The biggest thing to start understanding is everything that happens is caused to happen, and rather it's Good or Evil it's a result of cause. Those who God causes to change by giving them new heart will change, those who try on their own will fail.
Hi GB,
You are right .
Jesus died for all that all may live.
Sadly for some they do not follow the instructions.No new hearts on view in the world yet.
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